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^ Thanks, so on initial review you'd say this is a better turbine to go with than the 60-
1 11-blade turbine if one was to BNR upgrade their Greddy turbo?
Assuming this doesn't come to fruition:
Originally Posted by JimmyBlack
Ask them about reliability of the 9 blade turbine wheels - have they had more failures than standard wheels? I was looking at a new 9 blade turbine wheel for the Greddy/Mitsu when I rebuilt it last year. Performance looked awesome, but longevity not so much - there were reports of the Mitsu ones blowing apart as they didn't have enough material at the centre of the wheel.
Last edited by RotaryMachineRx; 12-09-2017 at 01:46 PM.
^ Thanks, so on initial review you'd say this is a better turbine to go with than the 60-
1 11-blade turbine if one was to BNR upgrade their Greddy turbo?
Assuming this doesn't come to fruition:
Not the same turbo (Gt35 vs Td06) but the 9 blade wheels available for the greddy would IMO work better than the 11blade for the 60-1 upgrade . But those are the wheels that tend to fall apart according to JimmyBlack .
^ Thanks, so on initial review you'd say this is a better turbine to go with than the 60-1 11-blade turbine if one was to BNR upgrade their Greddy turbo?
A brief update on the 9 blade TD06 wheel after talking to my turbo builder last week:
The design hasn't changed and he's still seeing a significant number of failures from them. The most recent failure was a few weeks ago when a newly built turbo blew apart after 30 minutes on the dyno.
Note that this update only applies to the TD06 Greddy/Mitsubishi turbos. I don't have any info on reliability of the 9 blade wheel the Brett is using.
Thanks for the info, yes I was confused I was thinking it was the same brand/make of turbine wheel just a different size in Brett's. I'm hoping to get a few more years from my stock GReddy before upgrading it (currently building a new house so reserve funds for the 8 are limited); but I still like to have a plan in motion in case something catastrophic happens with my current setup!
Mine comes from Procharge in Australia. Probably it's made in China but they have numerous examples operating on Ford Falcon turbos making all sorts of crazy horsepowers. The Ford Falcon came stock with a gt3582r so it's a really easy upgrade for those guys.
They even have a 'stage 2' turbine wheel they use for larger 69mm compressors getting amazing results.
Also : been talking with the guy from Procharge . We are thinking there is a possibility the turbine is now oversized for the 58mm compressor wheel, meaning it struggles to get it up to spool up due to the extra rpm required . They are getting some unreal spoolup (20psi by 2600rpm) on the 6 cylinder Falcons with 63mm GTX wheels so it obviously does work .They have offered to upgrade to a 62mm billet wheel for me for very cheap.
Ah I see, that reminds me of the remote setup formula, where they keep the small a/r turbine and mate it to a larger compressor achieving the opposite of what your experiencing. Good luck with the build bro!
This method seemed reasonably legit for that purpose. Run the calcs and see where each might fall in the relative range of other known choices and potential outcomes:
Well it works out at 92% on a stock 3582 turbine . But this turbine is the same size with fewer blades and a smaller hub , so if we assume it's equivalent to say .... a 'P' trim turbine it would come up to around 104% . Based on that guess , it doesn't look like it's too big .
You want to ideally be around 100% on a rotary and P trim might be just a bit less than your estimate. Would seem to be ideal from a balance perspective. Not sure what your housing options are?
What did you come up with for the area # for each sode?
You want to ideally be around 100% on a rotary and P trim might be just a bit less than your estimate. Would seem to be ideal from a balance perspective. Not sure what your housing options are?
What did you come up with for the area # for each sode?
Just picked the numbers off his table
GTX3576 compressor 76/58 = 5.614
Turbine (stock 3582) 62/68 = 5.171
'P' trim turbine = 5.89
It might need the smaller housing to get the low end kick you’re looking for yet still flow freely enough up high with the p trim wheel. Otherwise it seems like all the gain will be on the top end, but it should be efficient/low back pressure in that case.
Any option in the 0.93 range? Something between 0.84 and 1.01 might be a best case compromise? I can’t ever recalling anything between those two for a Garrett turbine housing though.
I'm on holiday ATM and can't do anything with the car till after Xmas. But I will say that with this latest build and the info I've now got . I could be 1 modification away from a major breakthrough for the fi renesis.
I'm going to send the turbo back after Xmas for a gtx3582r compressor wheel to be put in. Procharge are being very helpful. We feel the turbine efficiency is compromised by the smaller 76mm compressor wheel. The larger wheel will work better with this turbine.
If you look at what Garrett did with the GT3584RS , this turbine should have very similar characteristics . Procharge are using it with great success on everything from 62 to 69mm . I'm the only person that's tried it on a 58 . It works ok....ish but back pressure/spoolup is not what I was expecting and the comp. wheel is the obvious thing to change.
After studying the B/W turbine map theory ...it makes sense to me now.
The 58mm wheel operates around 10,000rpm faster than a 62 for the same flow .Assuming the efficiency with a 62 is good you can see why a 58 would give more backpressure. That plus I believe this hi/flo wheel probably has a very narrow efficiency vs flow range.
Basically you’re going from a tighter 0.92 ratio to a looser 0.90 ratio; more total flow and more imbalance towards the compressor. The wheel design can influence that some though, it’s just a general assessment.
However, it seems fairly close to the Turblown TDX62 hybrid, which has slightly more top end flow than their TDX61 but it also has a slight loss of boost response down low over it too. They both perform well on the 13B, but get two nice sharp p-port pulses with that engine.
It just seems like a slightly smaller compressor might be more in line to the softer Renesis split side port pulsing is my only input really. Something like a TDX60 if they had one (they have 57/61/62/67 sizes). lt might be more optimum to your goal if there’s a good C wheel in the 60 trim range available for the P trim turbine. Unless you’re really trying to aim more for the upper rpm range power instead at some expense down low.
Alternatively dropping the turbine AR with the 62/P wheels would offset that more to lower rpm and response too. It should still be ok with the 1.01AR; reasonable response and linear stable power into the upper rpm range, but I don’t see it being zippy down low. I suppose it just depends what you want from it.
Thanks for the input .
The reason I kept the 58mm compressor was that I knew it had sufficient flow up top and thought it would be more responsive down low . What I'm actually seeing with this combo however is almost identical characteristics as I had with the stock turbine . Given the results Procharge have had with it on a 4Lpiston engine , I can only conclude that it is operating at the wrong end of the turbine efficiency range.
I'm hoping not to lose any spoolup but get a considerable drop in backpressure by doing the swap. The wheel they are suggesting is an 11 blade 62mm .
1st edit:
It sounds like a high boost piston engine wheel to me, but ok ..
It seems to me that the 1.01AR is the issue with the one you have now. It really needs the lower AR to spool up faster and deliver where it can. Now it seems too loose to start and then the c wheel can’t keep up later. I bet a P trim t wheel and 0.84 AR housing would make a really big difference, but that’s just my estimation.
It seems to me that a 60 trim c wheel, p-trim t wheel, and 0.84 split T4 would make a pretty good Renesis setup, but I’d actually prefer around 0.90 AR just for a bit more range, but I don’t see anything out there. I feel like 1.00+ is too much for that size turbo on a rotary, i.e. mismatch. Pretty Turblown etc. would agree.
2nd edit:
Yeah, here’s Turblown take on their TDX57R setup:
Originally Posted by Turblown website
TDX57R features a 58mm compressor inducer, designed for those looking for an extremely fast sub 450rwhp turbo( primarily designed for 350 to 450rwhp market). .84 turbine a/r should be selected for this unit.
The turbine section is a 74mm P trim wheel, which is very well suited for the 15 to 25psi range on a 13B 2 rotor. The larger 74mm P trim wheel outflows the 68mm Gt35R turbine wheel considerably above 18psi.
The 15+ psi boost mention is geared more for the higher power 61/62/67 versions, which they then recommend 1.00+ AR. That’s why they say to use 0.84 for the 57. If I was in the market for that style low mount in that power range I’d probably buy the 57 from them as suggested.
Basically now you want to change to their equivalent TDX62 turbo setup with those wheel changes now being recommended along with the 1.01AR housing. That’s generally considered a 550 whp 20 psi boost setup on a 13B. It’s obviously your car/decision, but that doesn’t seem like the way to go in my estimation of where your stated goals were.
12-09-2017, 01:43 PM
