emailists

WOW - shaving $1000 off the price would almost definitley put it over the top for me to order.

I keep weighing in my mind "do I want to put $4000 or more into this car or just apply that to my next car?" The problem is I don't see any current or even future vehicles that really excite me AND fit my needs. I really love all the 2 seat sportscars out there (including the ION redline when that gets released) but since I can only have 1 vehicle- living in NYC, a 2 passenger vehicle isn't practical for me.

The 2008 Camaro seems interesting, but I imagine that would not have the 2 seater like tossability the 3000lb Rx8 has - and that makes me think I should just upgrade the 8 with a supercharger and hold onto it for 10 years.

MadDog

Off what price?

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

I want user end tuneability most preferably in the form of a flash.

Correct me if im wrong, but without a system where the user can log and make changes, the flashes that will be put on the ECU will be "conservative".

My Rational being that a flash that works great for New Jersey might blow a car up at the top of Mt. McKinley in Colorado. And even not at the extreme, doesn't it bother anyone that with a system like such you could never really maximize the amount of power you're gaining from the FI application.

Let’s say RP makes regional maps based on where you live; What about people like me who take cross-country road trips twice a year, what happens when I cross into higher elevations on a map that designed to work between 0-2000ft above sea level. I'd be nervous to put my foot down.

For all intents and purposes you'd have a "safe map" designed to work during the cold of winter and heat of summer, a map for the guys who think its ok to use 87oct and drive hard, sort of a middle road that doesn't allow you to have full potential.

Moreover, what about mods that affect the fuel mixture, will someone going from the stock exhaust to lets say the TurboXS make his car "run funny"? What if someone decides to add an intercooler to your system because they want to push more boost, or simply because they want to try it out, wouldn't that change all sorts of things the ecu uses to calculate fuel delivery (tube diameter etc...)

Now I maybe talking out of my *** because..... I know that the stock ECU is able to introduce variables of temp., speed, humidity, elevation, etc... into its fuel delivery. Further the stock ecu will continue to advance timing as far as it can do safely dependant on the octane your running based on the amount of times you continuously drive it up to redline. But will your flash be able to take advantage of the cars sensors once you introduce a boost map into the equation?

For a Guy like me I would like the ability to on the fly to be able to upload a map that would give me the best possible map for the heat of summer and the best possible map for the cold of winter, both of which to remaining in a reasonable margin of safety.
But more then that... an on the fly flash tuner will allow you to get into the really cool stuff; A mileage map for long highway drives that you run low boost and lean fuel mixtures and know that you shouldn't push the car hard.
The valet RPM limiting map that I referenced when talking about Cobb tuning, the anti-theft map that won't let the car start unless the thief knows how to operate the flash device.
Track Day Maps
City Driving Maps
ETC ETC ETC.


If im misspeaking please correct me.

zoom44

oh for fs sake mark- the PCM compensates for ALTITUDE. thats just from your third sentence. ill go read some more

zoom44

i dont care about the MAX edgge i can tune to , no. i want a nice reliable increase in power. if i want more i can swap a pulley or wait for a "stage 2" upgrade.

read first answering post

the maker of the kit can specify "for x octane and above"

blah blah blah

it doesnt know its in boost it just has more air. the pcm can handle it just fine because it has maps that now cover the increased air.

You already have closed loop lean running.

You already have an immobiliser.
why do you need to load different software for different temps or whatever when the one software has parameters to dealer with the different situations?

i know ther is more there but blah..

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

I'm not talking about the MAAXXX edge im talking about the spot where YOUR car can run best and still be safe, not where ALL Rx-8's can run decently and for all intents and purposes TOO safe.

If you read my post I came to that point that the ECU does take into account all those variables including ALTITIUDE, im just curious if a "homemade" flash will take advantage of ALL those sensors and ALL those equations that you have to modify once you introduce "extra air" (boost) settings and so forth.

Mileage: You can improve everywhere your car isn't in closed loop; people do it for a reason.

Look at Cobb tunings website they offer different maps for; different octane, California gas, some of their maps REQUIRE the stock intake. Why have different maps for different octane when Rx8's and (assuming) Subaru's Ecu's all have knock prevention built in, do their "homemade" flashes not utilize this timing advance/knock prevention system? Why REQUIRE the stock intake if your ecu/flash can calculate everything in relevant to the air mass coming thought the tube?

Maybe im not hitting on something crucial, I'm far from an expert, but all im saying is that when it comes to flashing user end tunability is preferred and most popular way of doing it.

zoom44

exactly why does cobb offer all those variables? why ar ethey neccesary? preferred by whom? ask them or SCT the percentage of people who buy just the flasher vs those who get the etc tuner package. besides if they have 10 versions you can switch thru why do you need to make your own? im certain there are more people just flashing.

so the kit maker finds a afr he is happy will make the most power without causing issues and you want him to give you a way to lean it out? so you can knock and blow your engine?

i can see an end user wanting a map that is safe on 87 vs one that was safe on 91 but again thats edge tuning.

some of those others like the stock intake thing are probably from changing the intake tube size with aftermarket intakes. the MAF thinks its in a 3inch tube and you put it in a 4inch tube you have to change the reference table. so they are specifying that you need an intake that has the same tube size as stock.

im not an expert either but you should know better the "homemade" flash will be built on whats available to the pcm - so every variable that can be altered by the OEM could be altered by the kit maker. thats the whole point.

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

so exactly why does cobb offer all those variables? why arE they neccesary?

zoom44

ask them

swoope

iTrader: (5)

tuneability...

and it is going to be more important with our ecu...

beers

dsmdriver

iTrader: (3)

Humm. It's pretty easy to redirect internet traffic from your PC. What if we use the Mazda program, scan what address it is connecting to, look for the data it retrieves, and fake it so that we can send it our own file?

I assume the real problem is the checksum in the file and getting it (or them) to match so that the file would actually upload.

If our only limit to flashing is because the Mazda program doesn't ask for the file to be used, that would be an easy thing to fix.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

hint.

https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...t=flash+tuning

beers

zoom44

obviously it isnt that easy.

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

+1 for me but seriously if you develop a generic flash for all ECU's your going to run into the problem of "funny cars". Where you can't explain why or how, but your flash just doesn't seem to wanna work perfectly with them, and when theres no user end tunability thats a huge problem, you'll have Richard spending all day looking at logs from these "funny cars" going humm why is it this lean here, then asking them to send back an ecu for a re-flash, then sending it back to them. Followed by them saying no still isn't quite right. AND the real bitch of it is, RP will swap their ECU into his car and it will run perfectly fine.

AccessPort from Cobb is 695 bucks for their flasher, then 195 if you want the software to play around with their base maps. Pretty cheap when you consider the cost of getting a piggyback and then something like a Greddy Profec.

rotorocks

My god man that is exactly what came to my mind when I read it a couple of hours ago. I just never got to writing it.

To continue your thought though, how does ECU knows what the checksum for the new flash should be? It does not. The original value must be given to it at the time of reflash.
So if you spoof the Mazda server and load your own flash into the pcm, then and only then it will run a checksum on it, and then if you try to stick something else into it, it will validate it against the checksum it already has.


Usually it works like this:
1 you get the checksum value of the program to be installed.
2 as the file is downloaded into the computer a checksum algorithm is run against it to verify the integrity of a file, which produces a new value.
3 if the value given and the value produced do match, the program is OK to be installed.

Our case:

1. We make the new flash.
2. Run a checksum on it.
3. Spoof the Mazda server.
4. Give the ecu our checksum value.
5. Load our flash into the ecu.

Go R.P!!!

Trekk

If its gonna save 1000$ off the kit for it to be flashed then whats the problem? If you wanna max tune your car, use the 1000$ you saved and buy a fuel management system and do it.
Maybe you can even get just the kit alone no flash for cheaper. Then you buy a system and tune it your self..

I personally wouldn't want a max tuned kit. I drive my car to work and back 90% of the time. I want something safe and reliable that would take me through the 90% of the driving I do and but add power for the 10% I spend having fun in the car.

Red Devil

Every time I read your posts, I thnk of that Canzoomer article of yours from years ago. I get the impression you're thinking a re-flash is the same ballgame as a Canzoomer. But then you state you understand otherwise, and now I have no idea how you're thinking about this???

1. You in New Jersey, and Me in Chicago, and Zoom44 in Oregon, all have had the same flashes and it's worked. Why would a flash from Richard be any different? People are running catless exhausts and intakes and these flashes still work fine. I'm very confused why you think there would be "funny cars"?

2. I do agree with you that more power could probably be squeezed out of whatever Richard's flash would be. If he wants to give you the capability to upload more agressive maps, or allow you to tune more aggressively, I guess that will be his prerogative.

BaronVonBigmeat

Well I would hope so, otherwise we might as well use a carburetor. Factory stock RX-8's don't need a dozen different maps so I hope a RX-8 with a cracked ECU doesn't either.

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

Hey Umbra, check out Ebay for Latham Supercharger. There is one on there that was sold in Jan 1961 and it is still running. Never in for servicing, and this is the very early type with greased bearings.

There was another 1990 unit on there last week that also has never been back.
How's that for long term testing?

Mark, you can buy a kit with no control and put whatever you want on your car. We might even have one that we tested and can put you right into it. (I'm going to have an EMU available right after we test it.)
But I think the flash will be a better answer. It will be just as viable as it is now just the headroom for airflow has been raised. Plus the mixture gets richer as airflow goes up and the spark falls back. It doesn't need to know it is charged. BTW the car already compensates for altitude up to 125KPS. That function will always be there.
And you owe me a shifter.

MM, you too.

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

[QUOTE=BaronVonBigmeat]Well I would hope so, otherwise we might as well use a carburetor. QUOTE]


Now that would solve all the problems. I love that idea.

zoom44

that'd be a nice setup if i had an old cutlass. always thought about getting one of those or a 442 like my uncles drag car

Genom

Since I am past 50K miles I dont need to worry about a ECU flash form the dealer no more! Bring it on man, cant wait to try something like this out.

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

Hey RP, I heard you're going to need a volunteer to test drive your Supercharger so you can get an ubiased opinion... give me a ring.

Trekk

Ok now I got 1 question. So if say down the road you decide to remove the kit for whatever reason, then what happens to the ecu.
Would the car be atleast driveable? Not in a day to day way, but just to atleast get it to a dealer or or some place to get a flash to return it to stock.
Would you offer reflashing to the lastest factory flash if that happens?
Just wondering...

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

You me and zooms cars all dyno differently, produce different levels of power, and obtain different fuel mileage in stock trim (assume that we all live in the same area). On the highway if we all dropped it into 3rd and ran the cars up to the redline there would be a noticeable gap between 1st 2nd or 3rd. Yet we all have the same flash, I weight as much as a size 6 with a little junk in the tunk, charlie is pretty scrawny too, I have yet to see an all encompassing explanation as to why this occurs.

maybe not a dozen but it does have an idle map, maps for different gears, it trims fuel and advances timing when you push the car hard (i guess you could call that another "map").


Richard when you flash it what parameters are you going to be changing?
Zoom seems to think the MAF will just interpret "boost" as more air flowing at a higher velocity, and adjust the fuel maps to compensate, so what are you exactly changing?

I marked Return to Sender on the package and it came back to me, haven't printed a label yet sorry been busy.