Improving The Sound System
 

Due to my ever inquisitive nature, and the fact I am generally not impressed by the Bose sound system after hearing previuos and present cars I own, well, I've started to take my car apart already!

Hopefull this thread can share ideas of speakers and other improvements possible for the RX-8 and new sources of equipment as they come on line and are available. So...

Did some serious listening today and found that (I like) what sounds best is Bass +4, Treble +6 Fader R3 (rear +3). Volume is actually pretty good, with minimal distortion, bass is so-so OK even at high db levels....it's just that overall there really doesn't seem to be any presense, any pizzaaz, that feeling like you are "there', it's simply flat and unimpressive.

I LIKE impressive sound, wheather it is loud or soft, IT'S GOT TO SOUND GOOD!! This stock system just doesn't SOUND great, sorry to say. So what I want to do is upgrade what is easily possible, without hacking away at the car or just replacing everything.

So then I started looking at these little tweeter type spks on the doors. Noticed that if I put my hand up to them to act as a reflective surface, I could ACTUALLY HEAR SOME HIGHS!

1) If you study them, notice that they point not AT YOU, but down and away from you towards the floor. Other cars have these pointing roughly at the drivers face level. So poor design here.

2) So I took that black plastic holder piece off the door and find a 5 cm cone speaker with a 1.5 cm dome cap in the center. Playing music and moving it around shows it has about a 10 degree dispersion angle at best. Meaning if it ain't pointing at you, you don't hear highs worth diddly!

3) The little fella says Bose, but it certainly looks to all the world like a shitful cheap speaker with a simple capactor crossover on it, probably better suited to a phone frequencies than music.

4. The center speaker is likely the same one. So sides and center can stand BIG TIME UPGRADING, and perhaps a SHIM of some type on the sides will re-position the tweeters to pint up and AT US! This sounds SIMPLE AND EASY and we could end up with GREAT SOUND! WOW, HOPE SPRINGS ETERNAL!

5) So we know that there is no ACTIVE CROSSOVER IN THE RX-8, no high quality DOME tweeters in the RX-8, but PRETTY FAIR amplification (the amp is in the trunk). The back 6x9's probably aren't much either, they don't sound awfully good by themselves, so could use and upgrade as well.

OK guys and gals, any BRAND, MODEL SUGGESTIONS for speakers I can try??

Happy Listening :) :)

i read in the nissan 350Z forum that the 350Z's have a BOSE system that no one is happy with....i also read that BOSE and Nissan have acknowledged that the system is sub-standard and have agreed to fix (probably a recall...).....
several people here have already mentioned that they don't like the BOSE system...maybe the problem is the same as the 350Z...

Most all Bose systems are sub-par. In case you don't know, Bose does not have subwoofers. In any of their systems. Car audio, home, commercial, etc.

If you notice, they call their equiv. a bass module. This is usually due to their inability to use something other than a 4 to 5 inch cone.

Bose is all smokin mirrors imo.

I don't know about newer bose systems, but in the mid to late 90s, their systems were typically as such that at the least complex, they would use an uncommon impedance for the speakers, like 2ohms, so you had to take that into consideration when going aftermarket.

In my maxima, each speaker has an amplifier and active equalizer, making any selective aftermarket replacement pretty much impossible - I replaced the hu, speakers, and wiring.

They sound more simple these days but I'd still be wary over just simply replacing speakers and expecting it to work/sound decent with the stock amp/hu. But if I could just imagine how an aftermarket deck could work with the 8's crazy layout...

Why would you fade the sound to the REAR? Do you go to a concert and stand with your back facing the stage? :confused:

If Bose spent half as much money on R & D as they spend on advertising, maybe their sound systems would be worth listening to.

My Mazda MPV EX with the "Priemium" 9 speaker stereo is the best I've heard in any car I've owned, whether it was aftermarket or stock.

Mazda should let the people who design the audio systems for the rest of the lineup do the "Premium Sound" for the 8, and save their customers some money by not charging them for the "Bose" name.

Re: Improving The Sound System
 

No, we don't know that. Active crossovers could very well be included in the BOSE "amp" located in the rear.

The problem with BOSE is that their stuff is very proprietary (like the 2 ohm thing that BLIZ81 mentioned). It is normally very very difficult to just replace speakers in a BOSE system. Alot of times, you have to start from scratch. With the odd faceplates, the integration of steering wheel controls, and the integration of the NAV system, we hope that we'll be able to take out the BOSE amp and speakers, and use aftermarket processors, crossovers, equalizers, amps, and speakers with the stock head units.

---jps

Not true - the 350Z with the touring package has a subwoofer.

From what I have read the sound system in RX-8 is much better sounding than the one in the Z and it does not have a subwoofer, go figure that one out. Actually, most reviewers' comments regarding the sound in the RX-8 are very positive. Can better sound be had in the 8? You bet but please keep in mind that it is a base factory system, at least in Canada it is.

I'm not going to change the sound system in mine, it's more than adequate!

The 80mm speaker in the center is not the same as the 50mm tweaters in the doors.

The fact that the tweeters in the doors are cheap cone speakers is typical Bose engineering. Bose does spend a lot on R&D, enclosure design and advertising, but where they usually get cheap is with their drivers.

My guess is that replacing those would make the biggest improvement. There aren't a whole lot of real 2" tweaters out there, but you are going to need them. I'm guessing that since they have 9" front woofers that the audio going to the tweeters is going to be possibly as low as 1KHz. You'll need a tweeter that can go that low if you don't want to fry it.

BTW, the in-line capacitor going to tweeter might just be for removing any potential DC offset from the digital amplifiers used in the stereo. I hope Bose used real electronic crossovers in their amp. If the crossover is nothing more than a cap, I will be royally dissapointed.

-Mr. Wigggles

I often do this in cars. I find the default factory setting (Fade = 0) puts all the sound in front, you don't get the depth of sound from the rear speakers. That's probably to avoid annoying backseat passengers who may have the rear speaker right behind their ear. With no rear passenger, you fade to the rear and get much fuller sound. Haven't tried it on the 8 yet as I've been having so much fun playing with the Nav and just plain driving!

Boy, if anyone swaps out their tweeters I'd sure like to hear about it.

bose

amp/eq in door too

TJRX8 - Great link - did not see that before. Now that is very interesting. I'm beginning to think speaker upgrades may just do it once we find out impedence and can match sizes.

On that Music System Highlights sheet, I love the line under "Proprietary active equalization circuity" - "Automatically balances the output at all frequences, no confusing knobs and switches".

Yikes!! Makes me want to puke - big (BOSE) brother at work again! Since when has bass-treble, maybe loundness 'confused' someone? Sheesh.

And 8_wannabe, that is exactly what I found happening, quite a bit firmer bass, better imaging by using more of the rears in comparison to having the fronts at '0' level. Works quite well!

I'm sure between all of us well get to the bottom of this problem, then solve it! Thanks.

Bravo... I'm about to go there my self. Hopefully I will get some time this weekend to get some basic measurments done (like pink noise output measurements and speaker impedance measurements).


Agreed, the most lacking part of this audio setup isn't anything majorly glaringly wrong so much as a lack of any thing standing out as done RIGHT.


This actualy confirms one of the worries that I had about the BOSE system as soon as I saw the diagram labeled with the driver sizes. For those of you know anything about speaker physics, you know that the larger the driver, the more it beams at high frequencies. Even a 1" dome starts to beam before 20 KHz, albiet above 10 KHz so it's not that noticable. But a 2" cone driver is bound to beam at significantly lower frequencies. So, if they aren't oriented to point directly at the ears.... NO highs. Even worse for the 3.15" center driver.

Same principle applies to the 9" front drivers... based on their 9" size they should definatly NOT be producing frequencies in the 1.5 KHz range, but I highly doubt the cheap BOSE 2" drivers have the xmax to cover frequencies down that low.

Also I've been underwhelmed by the Q of the large 9" drivers... they only hit one low note and it's very loose (high Q).

The biggest advantage I see with the BOSE system is that when I go to replace drivers, I've got bigger holes to mount new ones in and hopefully pre-wired runs to the trunk. (I'm hoping BOSE wiring harness actualy has some clean line-outs hidden in there, and decent pre-run wires to all the speaker locations.)

As for brands/manufactures to use as a replacement, I can't say much. I come from a home audio DIY tradition, so I'm tempted to roll my own solution using those drivers and my own crossovers. In general I've been underwhelmed by most of the car audio I've heard. There is a classic problem of price != quality in the car audio industry which makes it hard to find what you are looking for.

This is all VERY disappointing. One of the selling points of the RX-8 for me was the supposedly excellent audio system and I'm sad that once again I've been conned. Can anyone compare this system to that of the 350Z? If so which is better please?

Have you tried turning off Audiopilot? IMO it does some funky things to the sound under certain conditions. But I agree, the Bose system isn't as nice as I would like - I feel we got ripped off with the GT package, since it didn't come with the 6-disc changer. I'd be more forgiving of the Bose if the changer had been included, but I just don't think the GT package is worth $3900.

Another problem, is that the center speaker (dash) is too loud. The sound seems to come from the middle of the dash instead of around the interior of the car.

Anyone know of a way to control the volume levels of each individual speaker? All I know of is the fade front to back.

Well I did it, put holes in my new car! But what a difference a few holes makes! I've been searching out 2" replacement tweeters, and actually found a few decent ones at a decent price at www.partsexpress.com.

BUT first the story, I also did a little work to determine crossover frequency on that 2" **IF** it is a simple highpass capacitive crossover. (One amp per door, with a simple crossover between the woofer/mid-tw pair maybe??)

The 2" has a 20uf (rather high value) cap on it. And knowing that Mazda calls the 2" a tweeter/midrange (according to the Japanese RX-8 site) means that the crossover **IS**likely quite low. Guessing the woofer and t/m both are at 8 ohms and going to http://www.lalena.com/audio/calculator/xover/ gives a 1st order crossover of 1000hz with 20uf cap. seems to fit! Wow, that **IS** low, but what to hey? The REAL impedence of the 2" is the unknown here, but still.

So I got to thinking that the 2" is **REALLY** a midrange that BOSE is trying to make work as a tweeter... and of course it **FAILS MISERABLY**! But that I already know as there is ZERO presence and highs are all dull or not there (esp. if you are used to HI-Q home or car sound).

OK, so maybe best to leave the 2" there as a miderange and ADD a tweeter?? Could be SIMPLE (what I want), fairly inexpensive (also would like).

So ready to order something online, then I happen by a Radio Junk, er I mean Radio Shack, and the wooses are closing out ALL THEIR SPEAKERS. No car stereo stuff/ no raw spkrs anymore in store. Go figure. BUT they do still have a Automotive tweeter set (part 40-1391 5k-20k 4 ohms 92db 40/60 watt w/built in crossovers), LITTLE neat descret black 1.25" round cans 5/8" deep w/easy one screw mount clip that also allows tilt adjust, $30 pair now Clearance $20. So I bag 'um!

Long story short, mounted on that plastic thingy with the 2", wired in parallel (after the cap) to pull a little more current from the amp to the high side of things and *** NOW - MY RX-8 BOSE ROCKS :D :D :D :D ***. what a difference a little "highs" make!!

I know it's not perfectly engineered, but it looks GREAT, sounds GREAT comparitively with PRESENCE and SHEEN to the sound which is just what it needed. IT'S also DONE, and now I can go ROCK-AND-ROLLING with great sounding tunes as I Zoom-Zoom!!

Worth a shot if you can get some or something close to try.

Spin9K,

Could you take some pictures?

BTW, the tweeter is probably 4 ohms (easy to test with a multimeter) so that 20 uF cap would actually create a 2KHz crossover point (which is still pretty low for a tweeter.)

On my test drive today and Paul Simon's Graceland playing, I had the treble at +6 and the bass at +3 and it sounded very good. With the treble control centered at 0, the music sounded VERY flat. Some upgraded tweeters aren't mandatory, but that really seems to be the weak spot of the system. (audio pilot worked great, imaging was very good, and there was a fair amount of bass.

Good luck,

-Mr. Wigggles

Well, 1k or 2k is low for MOST tweeters. But this is BOSE. They do things different. To make a 9" mid-bass work well, you would pretty much have to cut it off lower than a 6.5" or 5.25" midbass. And since you are cutting of the midbass lower, you would have to cut off the tweeter lower. And so the tweeter will have to cover a larger frequency range, which is why it is 2 inches, instead of a more common 1 inch or so.

That is the compromise they had to make to get range without a subwoofer. They did that so that they could get all of the soundstage in front of the listener, but they gave up some other things to do that. This is why some of us were not optomistic about the BOSE system six months ago, before we ever heard it.

---jps

Here you go. They look obvious here, but I put my wife in the car and she didn't know what I had changed, she thought they were there before (?). In reality, they blend in nearly perfectly with the interior.

I have them pointed pretty close to car center at shoulder height. That's as far as the tweeters holder's adjustment will allow. But you can see it is way different direction than those 2 inchers.

One more pic... and honestly, I've tried several CD with crisp highs from my collection, played w/the bass-treble and rear adjust... it's a BIG difference. Can just put my hands over these little guys and the goodness all goes away. I can't believe it was so simple, but I AM thenkful for little miracles. Just imagine what some futher concerted effort could produce?

But for the time being, my next project is painting my nice grey-primed brake calipers red with stuff from these guys ( http://www.g2usa.com/products.shtml ) and maybe using their red anodized aluminim screen on the front bottom airway.

But now to just do more driving to get my 600-1K miles over with. Got 130 more in today!

Agree 100% It is tough to intigrate such a big woofer as front speaker.

Yeah, a subwoofer would have been nice. But without a sub, 9" woofers in the front is a good call IMO. Maybe they should have done some sort of 3-way design, but BOSE typically neglects everything above 10KHz in their designs. (a paper 2" tweeter can't do 10KHz well, period)

I like the sound coming in front of me and the Bose System sounds very good. It sounds a lot better than my Lexus SC300 sound system and that system has a free-air sub in it. For factory systems, taking in account all of its features (audio pilot, center speaker, etc) I would rate it a solid A. Now in absolute terms, with the best IASCA system out there being an A+, I would give the Bose system a B+.

Replace the tweeter and add a sub and I think it can be an A- possibly an A, IMO.

Spin9K,

Thanks for the pics. Where is the best pry point to remove the tweeter panel? Did you just use a screwdriver to pry it or is there a hidden screw or something.

BTW, off the top of my head the best replacement 2" tweeter would be 51AT made by the German company LPG:

http://www.madisound.com/lpg.pdf

It is an aluminum dome 2" tweeter with rubber surround. I swear this is the company that makes the tweeters for JL audio. (JL audio openly admits that their component speakers are made in Germany), But even without the flange it is still 4" in diameter and 2" deep. I would be very tricky to get it to work.

-Mr. Wigggles

Spin,
Save me a little trouble: how does that plastic piece (where you mounted the speaker) come off?

It's too easy, just grasp the black plastic piece's lip at the window's edge side (with the windows down of course), and gently but firmly pull into the car. POP! It comes off. There is just one plastic snapin holding that whole piece.

It was scary the 1 st time, but it's really easy!

this definitely peaks my interest.
probably want to put a little better tweeters in than the $30 radioshack variety. I'm sure they are better options (infinity, kicker, cv, etc) but you could still use their mounting brackets.

thats a really nice job man
i gotta read the rest of the post later to see what the details (if they are included, i dont know, havent read, want to go to sleep) of the install were


ciao for now
________
Ship sale

HA! I know what you mean. I traded a Millenia S 2001 for the RX and it too had BOSE; however, the same CD sounds muffled in the RX in comparision. I was, last night determining that the highs are missing - then found your comments.

spin9k


howd you do it?

did you just cut a hole and wire the wire going to the other tweeter into the knew one or what?

cause this is probably something ill do and id lie to know how you did it, since i dont really know that much about this stuff
________
Bag vaporizer

HOPE YOU DON'T MIND THIS LOG EXPLANATION
 

Good find, I guess there are discontinuing them! What I did here was the following:

1) take the plastic panel off. It will now be connected to the car only with the speaker wires.

2) underneath the black plastic foam covering the connector is a little tab you can depress with your fingernail that will release the connector male/female pieces. I had to peel the foam off one to find this the first time, but if you play with it you may not need to do that.

3) take both speakers/plastic pieces to your shop. Remove the screws and take off the speakers so you can easily work on them.

4. get your solder and soldering gun warmed up.

5. examine the connections on the speakers. There are 3 solder terminal blocks. You'll see that there is a cap soldered between two of them. Note the end of the cap soldered together with the speaker wire going to the connector to the car. You do NOT use this terminal. The other two directly connect to the speaker voice coil. You WILL USE these two. Of these two, one terminal is The OTHER END of the CAP. Let's call this (-) or SILVER, the REMAINING terminal has the OTHER speaker wire soldered to it. Let's call this (+) or GOLD.

6. Strip some insulation (about an 1") from both wires of a tweeter. You will see one is silver wire, one is gold wire. Put aside.

7. Find the spot you want to mount the snapin holder on the plastic trim piece. Hold in place and drill a starter hole for your screw that will attach it to the trim piece. I used a tapered head 1/4" machine screw that fit in that center hole nicely. Screw it on so it is secure.

8. In one of the radial spaces inside the snapin holder, now drill a hole large enough to put the tweeter wire through.

9. Take the tweeter. Thread the wire through the access hole you just made. Now there will be no visible wires when you are done!

10. Role each tweeter wire between your fingers to make them solid, not all loose strands. Carefully thread and twist tight the gold to the GOLD (+) connector mentioned in 5 above, the silver to the SILVER (-) connector likewise. VERY IMPORTANT!!! > Make sure that no wire touches the speaker frame (possible short!). Then melt a small bit of solder to secure the wires to the connectors.

11. Do all the same steps w/the other spkr.

12. Put it all back together, snap in your tweeter and adjust position to suit and you're ready to rock and roll!

Good Luck!

thanks

thats a really good explanation, now, if i ever feel like actually doing it myself, i know where to find out how
________
THE CIGAR BOSS

this made me think...
does this answer the question were all asking?

can you just replace the speakers without TOO much fuss and keep the bose head unit?
________
GROUP LIVE

Quality of the signal getting to the amp, and impedance of the drivers is what I'd love to know too. As well as quality of the wire being used. Hopefully they're just basic 4 ohm drivers, Bose has been doing that more lately. If that's the case, that crap in the front is getting yanked out and replaced with a real component set. A 2" cone tweeter? WTF are they thinking? And with a 9" hole, you could do a lot with that. Maybe make a fiberglass tub to drop in and hold a Dynaudio 7" driver. In a sealed tub like that, you might just decide that you don't need a subwoofer. And Dynaudio does make an Esotec tweeter that goes down to 1K no problem. Knowing what the stock crossover points are would be nice too.

Spin 9K, I love this thread !

I saw this thread a while ago, but didn't read it in detail... and have been wondering how to fix up the sound without going overboard.

Has anyone else tried spin9k's approach, and what do you think of the outcome?

I brought mine in to the custom shop to look at getting a sub installed. We also talked about the mid/tweeters on the door. He said that extra tweeters could be added but pointing towards the windshield to bouce the sound. He also talked about something he had done in a Lexus that worked well. He put the tweeters in the air vents in the centre console. He checked out the vents and saw that as a good option. Anyone else ever hear of this?

I've seen alot of crazy stuff in sound systems but no I have never seen anything in air vents

I just added an Eclipse 10" sub and an Eclipse amp and the stereo sounds soooo much better. All I wanted to do was fill out the lower end a little bit, and it worked. Much better.

This was a common thing back when cars didn't come from the factory with stock tweeter locations, and when installers wanted to keep things stealth.

---jps

please post pics of your 10inch sub

Please post pics and details of installation, i.e., power output of amp and how you hooked into the system. Do you have the AudioPilot turned on? If so, does the extra bass sound from the sub affect the sound levels in the front woofers?

Like you, I just want to add a little bottom end to supplement the BOSE system. I still want to hear bass from the front drivers and not be overpowered by the sub. The custom audio shop I went to suggested adding a cubic foot cab with an 8" sub.

I'll try to post some pics either Saturday or Sunday night. I have to work all weekend, so it will take some time.

There is a myth in audio that bigger or more is better. As with most other situations this is not always true. This applies to size to a point as well as power and number of speakers. I was a custom stereo installer with some very high end shops for several years. During that time I learned alot about how things really work. I also spent several of those years traveling around the country to IASCA and USAC shows getting to hear the best cars in the world. I am proud to say that on 4 seperate occasions one of my cars won the world champion for its power class and this is in both sanctioning bodies whose rules are very different. The best sounding cars are the simplest. The fewer the number of speakers the better. The car is a very hostile environment acoustically. There are no solid mounting points, everything resonates easily, there are tons of obstacles (seats, consoles, people, etc...), lots of reflective surfaces (glass). It is about the single worst environment for a stereo system that is supposed to sound good. People then try to put in the largest speakers they can and the most sophisticated eq systems they can to correct many problems. Unfortunately most of the problems that need eq attention come from poor speaker choice, poor location, and a poor mounting surface with an improper baffle behind the unit. The best sounding system will have as few things in the signal path as possible. 2 full range speakers stragtegically placed in the FRONT of the vehicle would be optimal. Unfortunately the world is a compromise, so use a good set of seperates and a sub. Optimally the sub should be front mounted but have fun here. My 2nd gen RX-7 had an 8" woofer in the floor in front of the pedals on the drivers side and in the correspnding location on the passenger side which required moving the computer. You really should hear the sound of front bass! It is wonderful. Back to the RX-8. Many people don't like kick panel speakers since they, well... kick them easily. However good results in a car can be had from door mounted speakers. I like having kick panel mounted mids, aimed up towards the center of the car with a small tweeter crossed over really high, mounted in the a-pillars firing straight across at each other. You can't tell they are there but you'd notice if they were off. The rule is that if you can close your eyes and can point to the sound s location then it isn't done right. The system should dissappear. A sub in the back is generally a given and if done properly is almost a seamless integraton with the front speakers. Play with reversing the phase of certain speakers. I did this on a few of my competition cars with very good results. On the power issue more is generally accepted as better but if the quality of the amp suck then it is only more junk. Focus on a top quality amp rather than a cheaper but more powerful one. You almost never hit max rated power anyways, not even rms. You generally listen with only a couple of watts of power while the big power is only used for transients. Focus on the higgest quality first watt of power. Numbers mean nothing. Sorry to ramble kind of off topic. I just se too many people do it the hard way. Why do it cheap the first time and have to do it again for more money when you could have spent a little more up front and had the system you really liked without all the hassle and time spent? It is cheaper this way too.

I highly recommend Infiniti Tweeters. I put some in my ride and the sound so amazingly loud and crisp they gave me goosebumps. Even better than te MB quarts i had.

Go get a pair !:D

I had some Infinity kappas put in a previous vehicle and loved them! I'm going to try some JBL's this time and see if they aren't similiar as JBL and Infinity are both Harman companies. Before the Inifinity's, I had MB Quarts for a short time and they a bit too painful to listen to for me.

Spin9K... just followed your instructions with some Pioneer tweeters.

I ran the wires out between the car and the plastic cover... so didn't drill any holes.

WOW.... this is now an amazing sound system, thanks for your advice and trailblazing!

You're welcome! :) An interesting tidbit I discovered after having 'real' tweeters in the car for a while is the fact that the Bose amp is ALWAYS on if the car is on, regardless of the on-off knob of the stereo.

There is some noticeable, but not really bothersome noise in the amp, sort of a low volume hiss that is always present. Likely the Bose amp's signal-to-noise ratio sucks. I guess this no-turn-on 'feature' gets rid of those turn on 'thumps' without a speaker on delay relay. The poor amp cost less to them. So thanks Bose for being so cheap. :(

If the RX-8 wasn't so NICE and QUIET when you are just cruising, you would never notice, and I guess with the shitful OEM things pointing at the floor you never would, in the normal course of events! Weakest link theory rears its ugly head again. I'm not complaining really as the sound with significant high end is WAY so much nicer!

Oh, did I say "Thanks Bose for being so cheap in designing everything you make. :( "? I did? Good.

mysdd
can you post pics
I bet it sounds great

Holy crap, you guys freakin rule!!

I'm sure the Radio Crack speakers work fine but what specifications in a tweeter are required?

I've heard Pioneer, Infinity, Radio Shack, etc......

Adding the 1" radio shack tweeters sounds (pardon the pun) too simple. ANd I like it!

Question for me is who can recommend a similar speaker AND housing now that the radio shack speakers are no longer available. I couldn't find them anywhere at this late date.

Any help, links to site, etc. would be appreciated.

Claude H.

I need to try this, good job Spin9k

hey spin,
can you repost this pic? it's not showing up...