xKp5609x

For any new people who have bought a "LS2 Upgrade" like myself and curious about dwell and maybe having issues with oltmans table, See Post 184. oltman's tables, i got a misfire around 4-6k rpm partial throttle etc. Teamrx8's table solved it for me, so it may be worth giving that one a go!

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

If that happened , I would say you have a connection issue as well ....

xKp5609x

That was the first thing i checked cause i do not trust my engine builder so when i replaced the plugs about 1k miles ago, i re-checked all connection. Similar issue with new plugs, and so i went to "Suffering from a mis-fire thread" And did all the steps there and thought maybe the compression is that bad lol. OR i have a defective coil. Someone at work also mentioned to make sure the OMP table doesn't have a spike because i did turn it up myself so i could have easily made a mistake (Which i did around 4k about mid load 4500 turned up slightly high so i smoothed that out) but also that if i messed around with dwell, to revisit this page and make sure my numbers were right, so i tried team rx8's which were similar to what i had but some portions were slightly off. Figured i'd try it and no misfire or any noticeable issues so far. about 300 miles.

trackjunkie

bringing this post back from the dead. is this still the latest and greatest dwell settings for D585 coils? since it was posted in 2012, didnt know if there was any new info since then. I'm using VersaTuner

thanks,

roflcopter

iTrader: (2)

I could be wrong... but it appears Versatuner's dwell table is in microseconds, not the raw value that other software uses.

So you would want to take the bottom table you have and multiply it by 100 and input that into Versatuner, not the upper table. Using the upper table would result in very small dwell that probably wouldn't even run at higher loads, if at all.

trackjunkie

This is a stock dwell table in versatuner. doesn't look any different than the one auzoom posted on the first post.

also i used the settings that Team posted raced the car this past weekend and the car ran fine other than some misfire during part throttle, which i got before i even installed the d585 coils. got a new MAF sensor and it didnt misfire on street anymore, but was still getting misfire on track this past weekend.

roflcopter

iTrader: (2)

Yep! I'm looking at the same thing.

See how the top left value would be 18ish if divided by 100? And how in the previous table the resultant dwell would be ~20ms? For the d585 it seems like we'd have to bump up the dwell by a little bit everywhere to take full advantage, so it seems like the 'resultant' table is the one thing should be based off of in Versatuner, just multiplied by 100 since the values are scaled weird.

In previous flash tuning software it seems like the values in that table are 'raw' and don't have much real world value without scaling, but in Versatuner they have attempted(although not completely correctly) to scale them to ms for us.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Yes , been using almost identical table on my turbo Renesis and every other one I've tuned ever since this came to light and ...............no issues.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

It's exactly the same table as Cobb and M/E . Just divide the numbers by 256 to get dwells in MS as per above...

trackjunkie

that's good to hear

manuRx8

Caution with high residence times!
The original Mazda coils carry a protection that prevents them from charging more than 8 ms (2048 in dwell numbers). If these 8 ms are exceeded, the load is interrupted and the discharge is thrown on the spark plug.
There is a map circulating for years and that is accepted by many as good, but that puts very high load times, up to 21ms in low voltage ranges (less than 10 Volts)
As in normal operation we never work in that range, the table does not cause problems, but if we use it as a reference and extend that misuse to other ranges of rpm / volts can give us problems.
Apart from the risk of overloading the coils, I think that those long times have another problem: A dwell time of 21ms causes the PCM to start charging the coil 21ms before the ignition moment, but as at 8 ms the coil activate the protection, starting the discharge, we are making the ignition go forward 21 ms - 8 ms = 13 ms before the correct point and this is not good for the engine.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Not sure what table you are looking at but I don't think there are people using any of the tables in this thread for stock coils ....

manuRx8

I disagree, it was in this same thread where I saw the dwell map that I mentioned the first time and in the post it indicated that I had been using it for a few months..

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-eng...5/#post4260808

Subsequently I have seen references to that same map in other forum posts and even in references to it from other forums (eg from the UK).
The truth is that in the continuous crossing of messages, the reference is often lost on whether we are talking about stock coils, aftermarker, improved coils, etc. so that someone can mistakenly use a Dwell table of 585s, LS2, etc. in OEM coils.
The only thing I wanted with my message is to warn of the risk and uselessness of raising the time above 8 ms in the stock coils.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

Yeah, I can pretty much agree with that. However, where those numbers are listed are all in extremely low voltage listings because the lower the voltage the longer it takes to fill the coil “bucket” with energy potential. That’s why the dwell numbers decrease as voltage increases. At the time I just determined a factor based on various GM maps for the D585 coils and blindly applied it to the entire OE map to get those values. So if you want to go back and drop all those high dwell values to below 8mS I think that’s fine, but mostly because it’s unlikely the coils will ever be operating at those voltage levels and won’t ever matter much.

Also thought I knocked the overall dwell numbers down 10%-15% at some point, but am not sure if I ever posted the new dwell map later. Mostly because the D585 coil is not really that good imo and is know for auto discharging at higher dwell values as the quality control seems to vary some.

trackjunkie

looks like VersaTuner updated the ignition dwell table with real time now. built in limit wont let values go above 10. i'm putting the LS coils back on.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

why would you do that?

trackjunkie

more reliability?

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

if you want reliability then get the ign-1a coils

trackjunkie

dang sakebombgarage ign-1a kit is $700

slash128

It's worth it. I love mine. OEM coils kept dying and I could never get past 15psi with the GM coils.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

Yeah, it’s way overbuilt for NA though. We figured you could use a direct harness without the battery relay if dwell doesn’t exceed 3.5 mS. Which is way more than enough for NA. Even 2.5 - 3.0 mS is plenty. The key is the multiple grounds which have distinct points of attachment, which most people always think they’re smart and can just consolidate them, and fail. If you're resourceful enough to make your own harness and mount it can be built for $400 -$450 range.

miro279

Hi,
I trid to build a data sheet as a universal coil dwell calculator based on voltage and rpm as the stock dwell map works...
My idea was to have a look on the OEM maps dutycycles and it seems the OEM coils are limited by a 23% dutycycle. I run AEM IGN1A coils, AEM stats these can handle a 40% duty cycle and a maximum of 9ms of dwell.
In the sheet you can enter a desired base dwell, maximum duty cycle, maximum dwell and a percentage of uplift to the OEM Map (this can be set to 0 and is ignored than).
The sheet than assumes the desired dwell for 12V and calculates the resulting dwell time for the voltages by the quotient to 12V, e.g. when you want 5ms of dwell (this is what you enter for 12V) the sheet would make this 10ms at 6V. I did not want to set values lower than those in the table as I guessed they are there for a reason, you can even rise the OEM values by a percentage if you like. The calculated dwell is compared to OEM dwell (plus uplift) and the higher value is set. The sheet restricts the values to the entered maximum dutycycle and the entered maximum dwell time.
Hypotheclly this way is should be possible to calculate dwell for any coil as long as info is given for max dutycylce, max dwell time.

I hit the table for the LS coils quite ok entering 70% of max duty and 5,5ms desired dwell in the high voltage area. Therefore my question. Does using a quotient not work in the low voltage regime?

Also, can someone tell me, if it is possible to calculate the resultant current load from these values? I have a 20A fuse for coil supply and don't want to blow this.
Also, is the dwell increasement to a 40% duty cycle and worth on the RX-8? The OEM coils are able to do their job quite ok with 1,5ms of dwell.With the AEMs I could go up to about 2,7ms, but will this be a benefit?

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

you shouldn’t need more than 3.5mS @ 13.5V (~6 Amps) with the IGN-1A coils. This is the chart for them:

miro279

Hi Team,

the table you posted realtes to an primary amperage. I have no clue how to derive that..

If I enter the values in my calculator (3ms, 40% duty, 9ms). The result looks like this:




In the low rpm range I'm a little higher than the proposed 3,5ms because the OEM table is in this area.. First table shows ms, second duty cycle and last raw data for Mazdaedit (ms*256). At high rpms 3,5ms are not possible as this would violate the 40% duty cycle.

miro279

Hi Team, my quote was missleading maybe, I did not want to apply these setting for AEM coils... If I enter maximum values in my sheet I get this (1. dwell in ms, 2. duty cycle, 3. dwell in raw data for Mazdaedit):





In the low rpm band I get more than 3,5ms as the OEM table has more there.. In the high rpms 3,5ms would violate the 40% duty cycle. The 3ms just comes from AEMs info pdf, how can I derive primary current in our situation?