beware Emanage Ultimate timing maps for Greddy kit
 

hey guys,

I've been remotely helping someone tune their 4 port Greddy setup (5 speed European spec) using the Emanage Ultimate. Greddy's Emanage Ultimate timing maps are pretty messed up. They basically make no sense.

To put this in context, here are the factory timing maps, courtesy MazdaManiac:

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1269036310
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1269036310

Leading map is in degrees BTDC, with rpm on one axis and an engine load index (based in part on MAF voltage) on the other axis. The split map tells us when the trailing plugs fire relative to the leading plugs, so how many degrees afterwards. 30 degrees BTDC leading with 15 split would mean that the trailing plugs at 15 degrees BTDC. With the EMU all our adjustments are going to be relative to values based on the rightmost columns of these maps above.

With the way Greddy wired up the EMU the leading and trailing maps are mislabeled. Ignition map 1 (map "P") is labeled as leading or "L" but it is actually trailing ignition adjustment. Ignition map 2 (map "Q") is labeled as the trailing map but it is actually leading. I repeat: the leading timing is actually trailing, and trailing is actually leading. So let's look at what Greddy does:

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1269036310

the basic leading timing output is left unchanged. The trailing timing is advanced at high rpm (split is reduced) under boost. This is dangerous and pointless. I have no idea what was going through the head of whoever put this together. There's one other map, the acceleration map:

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1269036310

Adjustments here are based on the rate of change of TPS voltage (how fast throttle is opened during quick movements of the gas pedal). This kind of timing adjustment is hardly ever used for tuning timing on any system. Greddy retards timing with this map. I'm not sure how it actually affects leading and trailing timing in the real world but there's no good reason to test it. There's no way to adjust timing based on airflow voltage or boost or anything. It's a stupid way of doing things.

Any timing adjustments must be made relative to the factory maps. The factory leading timing map was designed for a nonturbo engine. It ramps up as rpms increase, and has a few inflection points or "steps" where the timing increases at a faster rate. So our timing correction map has to account for this. Unfortunately, the EMU limits max timing retard to 20 degrees. That may seem like a lot but given the compression ratio of the engine and the factory maps, this maximum is unfortunate and may be limiting when running just pump fuel. Here are some timing maps I created for use with the Emanage Ultimate:

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1269036649
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1269036649

The factory trailing split is around 15 degrees. To maintain this split (it is certainly safe and I would not increase split further), we set our leading and trailing correction maps to the same values as shown above. Here is an excerpt from a log of this person's car making a dyno pull:

DATALOG SCREENSHOT

The timing curve isn't perfect but it's pretty good given that this is a piggyback. It's safe enough not to blow your motor which is the most important thing. The dip in timing in the middle was intentional, to decrease the chance of detonation in that area. Note that there may be some electrical noise at work here affecting the signals and this engine also had an unrelated hesitation. The pink line is the leading [mislabeled trailing by Greddy] and the yellow line is the trailing [mislabeled leading].

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1269036649

Summing up: Greddy's maps are junk, leading and trailing are mislabeled, and you shouldn't use the Accel map at all. Retard timing by using the same values in both correction maps. When considering what numbers to use, for most setups you can make your adjustments relative to the values in the rightmost column of the factory maps posted here.

One last note: to decrease trailing split, you need to reduce timing correction from all nonzero values in the trailing ignition map (ignition adjust map 1). So if we want to drop from 15 split to 12, we take every nonzero value in the leading map (ignition adjust map 2), subtract 3 from its absolute value, and put the final value into ignition adjust map 1. So if the leading map says -10 correction in one cell, to preserve the trailing split we set the trailing map to -10 in the equivalent cell. To reduce trailing split, we change that value to -7.

I was told this engine made 200whp on a dyno dynamics dyno. It dyno'd around 130 stock I think. This is a 4 port engine.

Here's another set of timing maps I made for someone:

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1270782006

And here is the worksheet I put together. It takes the commanded ignition timing values (top) in the 1.25 load column of the stock maps and applies the EMU boost-based correction (middle).

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1270782006

The map at the bottom of the spreadsheet is the predicted timing advance curve after accounting for the boost-based timing correction. With a piggyback you can never be sure what the exact logged timing values will be, but this is a starting point.

The EMU map file with the timing map and the Excel worksheet are both in the zip file I have attached. These are to be used as tools to help you, I make no guarantees about anything and take no responsibility for your car.

Good information - thanks for sharing .

BTW : my (protuner) maps use way more advance and have been without issue .

I don't doubt it.

But my friend one must always be careful when posting timing maps on the internet. This particular map was for someone running a stock kit at stock boost. The 8 - 10psi range are pretty retarded in case someone gets a little greedy... that's why timing drops like a rock after 7psi.

Fantastic info!

I have the ultimate running on a 20B but I havent tuned it yet. Can you confirm the version number of the software that you were running as that mis-labelling of the ignition is really bad!

good point . Although I have nothing to sell and nobody has any recourse on me if they blow their sh*t up so I'm ok posting mine . All care and no responsibility .

Yepper, the factory map is total junk.

I never did understand why they pushed everything to the accel maps; ah well good thing not too many are using the EMU anymore.

Here's another example of what happens when you use the default Greddy maps, which effectively have no timing retard to compensate for boost:

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1276031154

The person who I was helping loaded up the suggested timing basemap from my earlier posts and the knock went away. The factory PCM is commanding about 26-27 degrees leading timing advance at this rpm, with the factory 15 split. Boost was around 7psi. You just can't do that reliably with 10:1 compression and normal pump fuel.

The suggested basemap I have supplied here results in around 11 degrees BTDC at the same rpm, instead of 27. Split remains at the factory 15 degrees. Yeah that's a lot less timing--about 2 degrees of retard per boost in this rpm range--but it's a much safer starting point.