Paul_in_DC

I've been trying to teach myself heel-toe downshifting for a while. For me, I found it difficult to press the ball of my foot on the brake and twist my ankle to blip the gas. There was just a little too much space between the brake and gas pedals. Based on a suggestion from expo1 a couple months ago (thanks) I did a simple adjustment to reposition my gas pedal as described below.

The metal plate covering the gas pedal is held in place by three hex bolts. Remove the three bolts and slide the plate diagonally down and left so that the next row of holes line up. Replace the bolts in the holes and tighten. The gas pedal is now ~3/4" closer to the brake pedal. This repositioning is just enough so that I can heel-toe now.

Below, the red arrows show the original positions of the bolts. The green arrows show the new positions.

LostAngel

Nice mod! I never thought of this.

BoosTED

iTrader: (2)

That's interesting Paul.

Have you had any issues with it yet?

Paul_in_DC

No issues - I still like the new position. I've checked a couple times and the bolts are still good and tight.

Cosi

this seems really interesting. ill go see if i have extra holes in my pedal (5 MT don't have metal pedals)

thing is...i never got it how you do this heel-toe thingie. it seems a really awkward position, or i may have been trying it wrong. i double-clutch when downshifting. what would be the diference in it?

BoosTED

iTrader: (2)

Cool.

Think my feet would catch if I wear boots though. One of my annoyances like a ring that is too tight. Main reason I couldn't get an MR2 Spyder.

Wouldn't be good if a person caught the gas pedal when going for only the brake.

BoosTED

iTrader: (2)

I am not an expert but I have watched vids of some of the best drift masters and they use the toe on the brake and heel on the gas. (opposite of what I first thought).

Benefit is more control to rev match when down shifting. Double clutching works too but is tougher on the clutch as you are using it almost like a brake pad to get the engine matched with the gear.

RX8Maine

Heel toe is only necessary if you are downshifting while braking, something that is fun to practice on the street but really only necessary on the track. It is easier on the track with harder braking, IMHO. Here are some of my observations about heel-toe after recieving very good instruction (from BMWCCA) and some extended practice:

1) It should definitely involve braking with the toes and giving the throttle a "blip" with your heel without affecting the amount of braking input. I actually use the ball of my foot (behind my big toe) for braking and the very outer part of my heel on the throttle. That involves very little rotation of the leg.

2) The blip should be SHORT! This is why our metal pedals are shaped the way they are to assist in letting the throttle go. Do your blip and GET OFF THE GAS. Having the throttle open when you release the clutch in a braking zone can be disastrous on the track and will have your passengers saying "WTF are you doing??" on the street.

3) If you go one gear at a time, the throttle blip will be roughly the same for each downshift. Trying to master direct 5-3 or 4-2 is probably not useful. Most of your downshifts at the track will be singles, and a braking zone that requires a double (or triple) downshift will take long enough to get them all done separately. Master that first.

4) Adjust your seat position. If you are needing to rotate your leg at the hip, your positioning is bad and you will tire very quickly. Try to get your seat adjusted so that you can get all of this completed without the skin on the back of your leg ever moving against the seat. You will always have a little movement of your thigh, but it should be minimal and using the "skin against the seat" guideline should help. My track seating position is completely different than my daily positioning for reasons that go way beyond just the shifting aspects.

5) Get some good shoes: Formal shoes with no tread are too slippery and could be dangerous (Having only a small percentage of your foot on a smaller percentage of the brake pedal when having obstacles in front of you is hazardous without good tread!!!!). Boots will not work because they restrict your ankle too much. Cross-trainer and running shoes with large blocky treads will not work because the pedal treads will catch them. A moderately soft soled comfortable shoe with a simple grippy but shallow tread pattern is the best.

6) Ride with someone who knows how to do it. Memorize what it feels like, looks like, sounds like. Have them ride with you for some practice. It is hard (maybe impossible) to see someone elses feet, so you are on your own for that, but experiencing the behavior of the car when it is properly done is worth 10,000 pages of any crap someone like me could write.

7) Practice a lot, recognizing that being on the street at normal speeds with normal braking will in no way compare to the track envionment, which I think is a better place to learn it.

I AM SORRY if this comes across as a thread Hijack. It came up, and it seemed like people were interested. Mods feel free to move this to a new thread if that is more appropriate.

Paul_in_DC

For God's sake don't try it with boots. They're way too heavy and restrictive on your ankle movement, and the larger soles can catch pedal edges. My favorite shoes for it are $20 casual sporty-looking shoes with virtually no edge to them, although actual racing shoes are probably better for it.

RX8Maine - Not a thread hijack at all, IMO. You gave some very good descriptions. I'm self-taught on heel-toe after reading several articles on it and watching a couple videos off the 'net that show it in action... followed by a boatload of practice. I found that it is easier, not necessarily only at the track, but in any hard-braking procedure. The reason for that is I'm pressing the brake pedal much harder and it's easier to be steady that way. To practice it on the street I have to brake later and harder than normally, so I can't (won't) do it while approaching another car from behind (don't want to scare them).

1) I use the ball of my foot on the brake too. But I differ on the blip part - I found it too clumsy for me to try to use my heel, so I actually pump down with the side of my foot - hence moving the gas pedal slightly closer.

2) Yes to short blip. I found it best to pay close attention to how I already downshifted (clutch in - blip - clutch out) then practiced doing the same downshift with my toe just resting on the brake pedal. Then I added more braking to the whole procedure. At one point everything seemed to "click" in a sort of "Oh, NOW it makes sense..." kind of way.

3) I only do one-gear downshifts right now. In my own experience, there aren't very many places where a two-gear gains very much.

4) Agreed that seat position is critical, but I try to keep my daily-driving position as close as possible to my track position, except for reclining slightly more. That means I drive with much more of a close-up Nascar-like position, instead of the kick-back-Joe-Cool position I was more used to before getting into autox/track.

5) Good shoes - agreed (as above).

6-7) Agreed, especially on the practice-practice-practice. By the time you hit the track you need to be so comfortable with it that it's second-nature to you, since you won't have time to think of it as you're approaching a corner at 100+ mph.

NOTE: For autocross, a couple "in the know" folks here said that they doubted the pedal mod would be legal for B-Stock class, since you're modifying a part in a way the manufacturer never intended.

Cosi

thanx for the great replies. i'll try to test it one of theese nights (free streets), see how the car responds and all.

tnx again

Jay Goldfarb

Use technique anytime you want to brake for a turn that you will power out of. With practice you will find that you are braking later and smoother and will be on throttle by the time you track in towards the apex.

If you ever do a track day, it is essential. Side of the foot is fine or heel. Ball of foot on brake is necessary so that you can modulate brake as needed. The 8 is setup perfect and you shouldn't need to adjust pedal.

Jay Goldfarb
Instructor with NASA, BMW CCA, PCA & PBOC

EyeBall Fixer...(o)(x)

Being a curious person... I'm thinking that it might be possible to take a steering wheel from
an AT 8 (with the shift paddles)and use those paddles to control the brake and /or gas in our MT...

Just a thought..

Paul_in_DC

My ankles and knees are not setup perfect, which is why I needed to make the adjustment.

Paul_in_DC
Student with lots'a folks

Nopstnz

The brake pedal should be closer to the accel Imo from factory or accel closer to brake pedal. I think brake should go to accel because I accidently hit the brake with my left foot a lot when I go to clutch. And I usualy push the clutch in fairly hard so I often hit the brakes pretty hard on accident.

BoosTED

iTrader: (2)

Sounds dangerous if you make a sharp turn and bump one of 'em.

ken-x8

Interesting mod and thread. I believe I've seen gas pedals on race cars with small boomerang or J-shaped extensions back and toward the brake.

Technique probably depends on foot size. I wear size 12, and I've never had a car where I could get my heel onto the gas. What I do is put the ball of my foot on the brake, sliding it to the right so it's pretty much the ball of my big toe on the brake. Then I catch the gas with the side of my foot, above the welt. On the RX-8 it's just ahead of the ball of my little toe. The action is more rolling my foot than flexing the heel down. I've never raced, so I don't know if this is solid enough for all-out driving, but I've been doing it this way on the street for over 40 years and never had a mis-step.

The idea of controlling the gas with a paddle on the wheel is interesting, but loses sight of the fact that you need to blip the gas while your hand is on the shifter. Back in the 60s there was a F1 driver (British, but I can't quite remember his name) who lost his right leg below the knee. With his wooden leg he could not heel and toe, so the mechanics would rig a motorcyle-like hand throttle on the shift lever.

Ken

SureShot

I've been double pedal downshifting for years, so it thought I'd try it during a demo ride in an 8.

DAMN those brakes are good!

The stupid salesman wasn't wearing his seat belt and I nearly put him through the windshield!

Nice mod.
Just test it with any different shoes you might wear to be sure the sole dosen't hook under the brake pedal when comming off the gas.

BigRed

I plan on doing this mod today! Ive been looking for something like this for a while.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

that wasn't enough for me so I did this .....

BigRed

Then you have to change your avatar! What did you do to make that? It looks like theres not much grip at all because it is flatish. I like this mod, but I think I want to take it to the next step too. I have a pedal kit that I need to figure out, but I dont think its exactly what I want. What to do...

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Heh may just have to do that .
You don't need grip on an acc. pedal - its not like the brake where you have to stomp on it .
Made it from a peice of 50x3 aluminium flat bar .

savedsol

Razo sells a few pedals with the bottom left corner being able to swing out and adjust to your liking.
http://www.carmate-usa.com/html_razo...comp_sport.htm

http://www.carmate-usa.com/html_razo..._i_comp_ti.htm

(Can't we hijack pictures from other sites anymore?)

BigRed

yeah, but Razo isnt the best quality per say. I bought MOMOcorse supergrip pedals made out of titanium which look decent. I might put them on closer together.
-BigRed

savedsol

Razo is just fine it's a piece of aluminum no different than Momo's. I disagree with Brettus that grip on the throttle isn't important. Here in the snow belt you need to be very delicate while driving in the white stuff - not to mention you have wet shoes. A slippery pedal would be a no-no.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Have had it on for 6 months without issue