viability of electric water pumps
 

:Freak_ani
Ok guys new line of thought.
1-our cars could use more low speed cooling(heavy traffic high summer temps etc)
2- always want more hp!
I have been educating myself somewhat on an electric water pump for the 8. The concept makes sense to me and in speaking with other types of car owners that have them they are impressed. Basically what it is, is just what I said. It bypass's the engines water pump entirely. So at low speeds the electric pump can provide more flow therefore provide better cooling in summer/heavy traffic. It also ends the parasitic power drain of the mechanical pump. (Also no more cavitation(sic)problems) Estimate that to be approx 15-20 hp at high rpm. The pumps are reliable and a thermostat regulating the pump speed and cooling fan speeds can be installed. Drag racers have been using them for a long time.
Now I have to find a pump that can be installed on our car and insure that it will work properly. Questions such as do we remove(or even can we remove) the impeller saft on our pump? Can we totally remove our pump and use a cover plate? Etc
Thought?
Olddragger

i actually mentioned this to Brillo in passing recently. I watched a program where they replaced the waterpump on a piston engine with one of the new electrics. havent had a chance to really check into it tho.

edit- i think we will see more and more of these with the up-coming change to 24v systems

Mechanical water pumps lose 15~20 hp at high RPM's? If that's true...yikes.

And for some reason I was under the impression that we had electrical water pumps from the factory. :confused:

We have an electric power steering box from the factory... Thats probably what you are thinking of.

I had this idea awhile back and posted it on the forum. Not much interest back then. Hopefully a little more now. I have a Summit Racing catalog that has an electric water pump for a rotary engine in it. Also OD, I know Summit has a store off of I-75 in McDonough with a warehouse where you may be able to pick up one and all the accessories. I would really like to see one set up that works. I just purchased the Agency Power underdrive pulley to see if it helps regain some hp but I am not expecting much. I will do a dyno after I have it installed and if I feel like there is some extra hp there. I just did a dyno the past monday so I have a pretty accurate baseline.

This has been one of my pet dreams too... 15 -20 hp sounds inviting. This kit http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product sounds nice. . . aside from the cost aspect and the motor life (2K hrs) that is.

Also the realization of the concept of replacing a perfectly good long lasting working mechanical part with something electrical and subject to instant failure ... whereupon it will take the engine along with it more than likely.

I like the idea in theory, but I'm not sure about a non factory application for street use. My biggest concern would be the ability of the battery and alternator to supply a good consistent power all the time given the other demands of the car.

I think this is why cars are moving to 24v power, that way they have enough juice to run all the aux functions electrically. The new 3series has an electric water pump for weight issues as well as more precision cooling. As hot as our cars run, I'm a little leary of making it work properly for a street car...but maybe someone can create a system that would be reliable enough. I think the fuel economy benifits would be nice.

All good thoughts guys--I have to do some more research about what flow rates of coolant that we need before committing to this.
i will be up at Summit this w/e(hopefully) buying my gauges. I plan on asking their tech folks about this.
Zoom I agree 24 volts is where things have to headed. The pumps i have seen so far are drawing about 6-7 amps so we should be fine. The out put of these pumps are anywhere from 32 to 55gpm. I am thinking that should be enough but need to confirm that.
olddragger

Try Meziere.....
 

Meziere has a whole kit.

Electric pumps for rotaries....

S

^ IIRC, that is the one summit sells. I too have been looking into this. I almost did it to my miata before I parted her out. Flow rates should be enough. This will also prevent any cavitation, which in theory should offer us better cooling during extended high rpm runs. If you do this, I'd wire in an switch that trips a light should the pump motor no longer draw current (die).

I also thought it would be a good idea. It really deserves to be evaluated.

i'd be worried one day the electric motor dies suddenly and be up shit creek... at least with a belt you can check it for cracks to make sure you won't be stranded.

I've always heard about "blah blah blah" prevents cavitation - somehow i fail to believe the engineers were too dumb to design a pump that wouldn't cavitate in the system... it is far from rocket science to properly size a pump.

if you want to try it, why buy a new pump? Why not just mount an electric motor to drive the pump and a simple relay off the ignition system.

that's what a pulley kit is for :stickpoke assuming you choose the right one, you can slow the pump down a considerable amount without issue via the drive pulley ratio

of course you can always use the perpetual motion theory to have the electric motor drive the alternator along with the water pump to generate it's own power :hahano:

This would be a great mod if we know it could be made to work reliably. RG and I talked about it for a bit, all the Chevy LS engines use them, but when it comes to racing they all go back to mechanical pumps for reliability.

RG was saying that you need much more amperage than 6-7 to drive a properly sized pump, but I haven't looked into it in any detail. That seems to be the main issue, can our stock system really deliver the power day and day out? For a drag car, this is a non issue, since there are so few (or no) creature comforts needing the electrical system.

I agree. Cavitation is more than likely a non-issue, but I believe it is possible to acheive when spinning at 8-9.3K-but the point is moot. Reliabilty would be a greater factor. Perhaps twin motors wired in series-but then again, just more to go wrong.. I was also thinking about a brushless alternator as way to get alittle more. I think Summit has some of these as well, but I believe they are all for GM motors.

http://www.emp-corp.com/HTML/product...water_pump.htm

not exactly for the budget racer, the Stewart model shown is over $400 from Summit Racing, but it is generic enough to be fit into most any car

I'd rather have a third oil cooler personally ....

edit: Summit only recommends it as a stand-alone pump for drag racing only, otherwise it's recommended to be used in conjunction with the mechanical pump


http://www.stewartcomponents.net/Mer...Code=ElectPump


they have a bunch of other universal stuff if that's what you really want:

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...115+4294908390

What are the Star Mzda engines running for water cooling?

dam they run huge water pump pullies! they are seriously slowing down the water pump. and people think there isn't issues at high rpm on the renesis :Eyecrazy:

here is an .au manufacturer of electric water pumps. some of the ausrotary crew have fitted them on older rx-7's http://www.daviescraig.com.au/main/display.asp

there is an adapter plate made by someone(cant remeber who) for the rx7 but so far cant find one for the 8. now the ?is are they the same? Probably not. Also I spoke with summit racing and a nice guy by the name of allen tried to fabricate something up but we are to unsure at this time how to to procede. unk engine flow rate need etc. Earier studies on a v8 mustang showed a 6 hp improvement at 6k. There pump and thermostat was approx $350. I'll take 6 hp for $350 and since we go to 9k redline we probably may see more than that. I also like the increased cooling available in congested traffic/slow speeds in the hot weather.
Some examples of the conversions I saw were simple electric motors(high quality) mounted to the existing water pump and then just bypass the mechanical pump with a shorter belt. (offset the alternator a little.
I think this is worth pursuing some.
Note of interest Zoom--they had a 16 volt pump that was nice!
Olddragger

should have read the earier intreys .
olddragger

and at least with the electric pump the //22##$%^ thermostat would have to go. Ya'll did know it doesn't even fully open until 203F?! Chasing it's tail all the time. Actually you can keep the thermostat if you want --just have tp drill a little hole in it.
olddragger

KGparts sells them...

http://www.kgparts.com/images/Turbo/kgwpf.jpg

[QUOTE=brillo]This would be a great mod if we know it could be made to work reliably. RG and I talked about it for a bit, all the Chevy LS engines use them, but when it comes to racing they all go back to mechanical pumps for reliability.

At least up to 04 model LS engines (LS1) use belt drive for the waterpump. I've got 3 of them in 2nd gens and even the 04 GTO engine is belt drive. I don't think the Vette is electric either.

A couple ears ago one of our customers tried the Mezier (sp) set up for a special application on his 3rd gen and abandoned it for stock w/underdrive pullies as it proved to be expensive, heavier, and overall didn't gain much on the hp front either. This was on an engine that made 489whp.

Anyhoo, my 2cents.

good info M8. Appreciate input. I think it may be worth studing on some. Never know may be able to get that "big" boost. In theory it is interesting.
I dont understand the realiability question. Heck mechanical pumps go out. true most of the time they do give you some warning but on occassion they dont. It would seem that electrical would be as realiable if not more so(street applications) with a high quality unit. Now high stress racing(excluding drag strips) i am not so sure of.
olddragger

you can find the adapter and the pump there also.
http://www.kgparts.com/jay-tech.htm