NavyFord18

What's up all, I new a little new here, so bear with me. I've been reading alot of threads about turbo's and super's. I watching that Axial Flow supercharger thread with great interest. But my question is this, why won't a regular supercharger like a e112 work on Rx-8. space isn't a big issue with me cause I'm putting a cowl induction hood on it anyway. also, if it can't work, for whatever reason, surely there is a why to modify it so it does work. Come on people, help me out.

wakeech

learn more about different types of superchargers, and you'll see why this is a bad solution for the idea of incorporating a mechanical aspirating system.

NavyFord18

That doesn't help, dude. If I could find it else where, I won't have posted the question.

DOMINION

Well if you have the ca$h you can mod what ever you wont to what ever car you like. Its just how much are you willing to spend and with all the bumps along the way how much will ca$h will it take to fix.
I will say this. The 8 is new and its hard to tune, but as of now no one is willing to blow a $40k car's motor right now. Just give it time till Mazda or someone lets out a good SC/Turb.
I think by 05 or late 05 we should see a great SC/T set up.

NavyFord18

That's a much better post, thanks man. I'm reading threads about Blitz super's and Procharger super kits, but I can't find a place to buy them for the RX-8 ( isn't that the coolest name for a car ). Help...this a matter of life and getting laid because of a very cool car.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

the ecu seems to be a big barrier agaisnt FI right now. The engine is untested in those waters also. Questions of whether the seals will hold etc. Go to racing beat .com for some good info also. It's a new car,hard to tune issues with burnt coils etc. this will all be worked out in time but it seems for the moment that nitrous may be the thing that will be available soon. Cowl induction hood? Pictures? meanwhile enjoy a great car that will soon be better.
olddragger

NavyFord18

yeah, I hearing alot about that thing. what's it do anyway. Also, what's is a piggyback program. I'll see what I can do about pictures.

rotarygod

There is no reason at all why you couldn't just custom fab up an Eaton 112 or other supercharger to the Renesis engine. As with any other form of forced induction, you only have to worry about tuning. Yes, it can be done.

NavyFord18

Thanks, rotarygod. I was hopen you would see this post. So, what your saying is it's really all about fabin up bracket's and a little tunning. So why hasn't someone done that already?

1stRX8

fabbin up a few brackets and a "little" tuning?

You wish. The tuning of the Renesis is balanced on a razors edge. Performance vs. economy, cost, longevity, drivability, cost, maintenance, emmisions, sound, cost, etc.

All of those elements [and more] will be severely disrupted by "slappin" on an SC or Turbo. Tweak, tweak, treak. For hours and hours. If the engine is not blown in the process it will be majorly worn down after many hours of hard dyno runs with experimental engine management. If not, you did not test it enough. The blown engine is avoidable by spending thousands on instrumentation, but it will still take many hours on a dyno.

For those without lots of time AND money - please visit these sites

http://www.mitsubishimotors.com/lanc...ion/index.html
http://www.suburu.com/servlet/showro...mmand=overview

But leave your good taste behind. Other than that, be patient and save your cash - your going to need it.

NavyFord18

point taken. I'll wait. soooooooooooo...any turbo's or super's close to coming out any, time soon. I'm also hearing alot bout a ecu piggyback. 2 question's, what's a ecu and whats a piggyback and how does it work.

ScudRunner

OT: Navy guys are too gay!!! Go Air Force!!!

rotarygod

I think you missed the entire point behind his question. He wants to know if a supercharger such as an Eaton M112 can be adapted to the Renesis. The answer is yes. What do you think every aftermarket company does?

My response was that tuning is the only issue. To this you agreed but then responded with "you wish" which implies that the engine can not in any way be tuned by anyone to work good with a fabbed up supercharger system. That is wrong.

You do not "wear down" an engine on the dyno. You either blow it up or you don't. This also applies to just driving it. This has nothing to do with forced induction or not. It is a tuning issue. You would "wear down" an engine by driving it for 300,000 miles or running it without oil injection. Sand would probably do it too.

The Renesis is no more "balanced on a razor's edge" than any other factory engine on the planet. In my opinion it is a "less tuned engine". There's nothing fine tuned about it. You can adapt a supercharger to any other engine on the planet and tune it to work. Even seen the video of the turbocharged barstool? The Renesis is no different and no more special than any other engine in this respect.

The only issue to this point is in tuning. That's it. It isn't impossible and not terribly hard if you know what you are doing. The biggest issue that I see is that people who have been trying to tune these cars have been starting with Mazda's crappy base map and then working to modify it. I would start from square one. Wipe theirs out entirely. Use base maps adapted from previous rotaries such as the RX-7 and then tweak from there. Not a direct transposition, just using the same timing techniques such as advance and split under boost. If you start with something known to work good, you'll end up with a good result. If you start with something that is wrong to begin with, you'll spend far more time and effort trying to get it to even a satisfactory state.

wakeech

well sorry, dude, but there are many many many resources, even on the internet, where you could find out just how bad an idea using a supercharger on a motor with a 9000rpm redline is.

alex

rotarygod - I remember you explaining (to me a couple of times) about the center port in the headers causing a lot of the cancellation of gains. Have you ever figured that one out? If the header could be modified w/out that loss, would it resolve any current issues we have w/ low-end power? Also, if installing a SC on the Renesis (w/out the center port issue), would the issue of the header still come up?

In general .. is a 1.3L 2-rotor given its current design, strong enough to be a (let's just keep it simple) a 300-400HP automobile? Or does something major have to change, either in the Renesis design (larger something) or is it a flow issue w/ air and exhaust?

alex

Omicron

Ok RG, so when are you going to get (or borrow) an RX-8 and get started???

Omicron

NavyFord18, you reeeeeally need to spend some more time reading.

I am normally very patient, and if you're read as much as you say you have then you'll realize that. But you say you've read all this stuff, then in almost the same breath give yourself away as someone who has just barely scratched the surface of what's here. Some examples:

If you had read the thread about the Sunflower/ATI-Procharger unit, you'd know it's not on the market yet.The ECU (Engine Control Unit) is mentioned everywhere, and explained in a million places. If you'd read a lot, you'd know that... and you'd also know that a piggyback is a device that plugs into the ECU and modifies certain signals like a/f and ignition mapping.Oh criminy! If you'd read anything you would know it's not that simple! If it were, then what do you suppose it hasn't been done yet? The entire tuner community (and all of us here on the board) are too stupid to figure out how to start "fabin up bracket's and (doing) a little tunning?" Maybe you can save us all...

Jeesh.

I have NO problem with newbies. I have no problem answering the same questions again and again and again. Ask anyone here. What I DO have a problem with though is someone pretending to have spent all this time reading when they OBVIOUSLY have not.

Don't try to bullshit us. Be willing to admit you don't know **** and have not read hardly anything and people will help. Looking at the pictures in threads doesn't count either, you have to read them.

WTF no turbo

But 8500 is ok?

rotarygod

As far as superchargers go, engine speed is irrelevant. It is supercharger speed that counts. Eaton recommends no more than 17000 rpm's for their units. If you can't get the boost you want at 9000 rpms while keeping the supercharger spinning slow enough, you need a bigger one. The old Nelson/Paxton supercharger kits for the 2nd generation RX-7 needed to have a different pulley installed than that which came with the kit. The supercharger spun too fast when the engine was revved up high. The real problem was that the supercharger couldn't supply enough air. It is improper supercharger sizing that causes problems, not engine rpms.

zoom44

i dont think that is the direction of his thinking.

1stRX8

Agreed.

The "you wish" line is simply that tuning the Renesis is not as easy as you have implied. Hard to argue that, or there would be a number of bolt on kits available. I believe it can be done, just not quick and simple. I live in SW Houston, own an RX-8 that rarely gets driven, and I own 2 ESC-550's [ie electric drive Eatons]. If you want to play come on over. I have a shop, TIG welder, saws, drill press, whatever else may be necessary. There is a dyno shop about 100ft from my place - very conveinient.


Please tell me that 30 hours on a dyno at high RPM does not wear the engine out. It's torturing the thing. It does not have to blow up to have the life severly shortened.

I did not say the engine was perfectly tuned - especially not for performance. Rather, emissions, smoothness, long life, and all the things a performance enthusiast would like on the back burner compared to having more overall HP. My perspective is the not CAN the engine deal with FI but rather can the entire system easily adapt. The answer is no. Kill the Mazda ECU for a Motec or whatever your favorite engine manegment system may be. probably change the air flow sensing scheme, maybe injectors, fuel pressure. Start from scratch - of course you can FI this car or any other. I should have qualified my post by saying - keep the street functionality of the car. I did not even consider the option of a scratch aftermarket engine management scheme. Not that the car would not drive well, but the factory bells and whistles would be messed up. If I simply wanted a fast rotary, the FD would be a better choice.

Can you properly tune a FI system without compromising the other functions of the car? Please say yes.

NavyFord18

Ok, where to begin. First off, thanks to everyone for posting. I'm learning alot. ok, nice'es over with.
Omicron...sorry to **** you off man. I'm new to this whole online forum thing, up until about a month ago, I only used the net for ****. So from my view, I was reading alot. that axle flow exhaust thread was long, IMO. so where a few others.

The reason I asked about the blitz (aready new about the procharger...my bad) was I (at least thought) heard was that Blitz had finished there's.

As for the ECU, I couldn't find anything on it, I probably just don't know were to look.

As for the fabin up part, I don't think that's o so bad of a question, a little simplifed, maybe, but not all that stuipd. I never said anything about easy, I don't want easy, its no fun (ckeck my rear suspension post. A dumb idea, I know, but I had to try). shoot, RG doesn't think it would as tough as everyone else say's it is.

And lastly, I NEVER SAID I KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT ROTARY ENGINES. if anything, I know jack sh*t about them, that's why I here. I find them very interesting, sorry if I'm asking dumb question's. but I got to start somewhere. I guess I missed the post where I have to be a level of savvy to post here. wht were you like your very first forum ever?

one more thing, like zoom44 said, that was not the direction of my thinking, I was simply getting the idea that their all these thing, solely about the RX-8, that made it soooooooo tough to put a super or a turbo on and I wanted to know what those were.

rotarygod

1stRX8: We actually seem to agree. I probably just took you literally in terms of if it can be done or not. I do agree that 30 hours at high rpms probably isn't the best thing for an engine. I was making the assumption (alot of that going around!) that you were just talking about putting your car on the dyno a couple of times and making a couple of runs. Oops!

If you've got the proper amount of ecu control, yes I can tune it.

1stRX8

Tuning. I think most agree.

Few agree on how to tune the car as Mazda has made it difficult without starting from scratch as RG mentioned. Physical installation is not a huge challenge.

The question that has yet to be answered is how to best accomplish engine management without going to a stand alone system. The car may drive great with a stand alone, but will the gauges even work? ABS? TCS? Cold starts? I don't know the answer for sure except that my workshop manual has PCM i/o for all of those functions I think.

1stRX8

The big rub. The "proper" amount of ECU control sure is elusive. e-manage is probably enough for low boost though. Piggy backs are band-aids. But I think a band aid is better than amputation - at least on my car.

The ESC-550's I have are sitting next to the car ready to go. I wanted these units b/c it will be easy to install and very easy to control boost at any engine speed. This will allow focusing on the ECU while controlling the boost in small increments on the fly regardless of load and RPM. It's a research project, should be fun too.

Most of the lessons learned can of course be applied to any FI application on the Renesis. I am really interested in the axial project. The physical unit, no matter how great it could be...is useless without engine management. I hope to get get past that part, then I can decide if I want a turbo, an SC, ESC.

BTW, this is for ME, I am not a car shop. I will share anything I learn but will make no promises. RG, you are invited to stop by as is any other member that can contribute to learning more about achieving the "proper amount of ECU control"