NGK Plugs and Wires
 

I use NGK plugs and wires in my '07 GT. I feel that they work well, but I have read other comments that they will cause misfires or are no good. I would like to keep my 8 running for a long time. So am I harming my rotary by using NGK products? Any opinions would be appreciated.

NGK plugs are used from the factory. NGK wires are fine as well, I have no idea where you read that they will cause misfires.

I have not heard that either.
I'm on my 3rd set counting the originals, now with the BHR ignition and nearly 24k on the last 2 sets with no problems.
Just be sure they are the OEM laser iridium NGKs with the L & T #s.

I thought so... I was just making sure, because I read somewhere in an old thread on this forum about plug wires and someone commented that NGK were no good (and no one argued the point). My personal experience was that this couldn't be, I just wanted to check to make sure before I do my tune-up and replace the plugs and wires. Thanks guys

Ah, first I hear of that. Or maybe I heard that and just forgot like most things learned here over the past years, :lol:

good to know

So what would be best bet?
Dealer??

Mazmart

OEM would be ideal, but I wouldn't worry about the NGK's. If it were a common issue we likely would have heard about it more often.

The wires that Charles of BHR sells are better than the OEM wires if you want to upgrade. The NGK plugs are fine. Some race with the Nippon Denso race iridium plugs, but they have a slightly different heat profile. I have used both and for my driving I like the Nippon Denso, but don't get me wrong, I have used NGK plugs of one type or another in almost all of my seven rotary cars over the decades and they are just fine. No need to run anything but NGK if you wish.

Cool.
Thanks guys

What CRH said is true

I have seen couple of them, usually go bad after 60-70K

Or inexperienced people don't install them fully/properly on the sparkplug terminal end. It's actually pretty easy to make this mistake, especially if you don't have electrical grease on the boot ID to make it slide onto the sparkplug easily. The wire connector inside the boot will make a distinct 'click' sound when it becomes engaged and fully seated on the sparkplug terminal end.

Since I cannot make a new topic for some reason, I'll ask it here.

I am making a plasma discharge ignition for my rx-8 and I'd need to know how much the stock engine management can delay ignition? Wouldn't like to blow seals with this but it would surely be a nice plus for this kind of engine.

So I'm talking about these kind of sparks.

Anyone?

Why would you try and re-invent the wheel?

A lot of web sites carry them. I buy mine from Auto Parts Warehouse. With a 20% off coupon and free shipping, they arrive at my door for under $60.

Would you just compare the two kinds of sparks? It has been said that this kind of ignition gives tons of low-end torque and lower fuel consumption, just what this kind of engine needs. It also gives much room for engine tuning, 22:1 afr is not uncommon with this. Here you can find more info if you're interested. Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

I also have an affiliate link for the ignition secrets e-book, is it ok to link it here?



Anyone know how much the knock sensor can delay ignition, since it maybe has to be delayed a lot. Or should I mess with maf sensor to delay it or wtf.

You seem to be asking for more headaches than you need, here. Maybe you just love to tinker and experiment with pushing the envelope. That's admirable. But proper ignition is so critical to the life and longevity of a rotary engine , I hope your engineering skills are up to the task, or it could be live or die for your engine.

I have heard that Mazda is experimenting with laser ignition for a possible future rotary engine that is on hold for now. How close to the benefits of that is your system?

Some reading for you:

The challenges you will face trying to set up a lean burn: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-eng...timing-216087/

Our knock sensor doesn't 'delay' ignition unless knock is heard. And by then it can be too late for your engine. Never rely on the knock sensor for anything, especially to save the engine. It's like using a nuclear bomb detection device with a radius of 100 feet. It will detect it, but detecting it won't matter. See the thread above for a good grasp on what ignition timing adjustments are possible with proper ECU reflashing

Doing anything with the MAF sensor without knowing exactly what you are doing is a recipe for a blown engine. There is nothing you can do with the MAF that will precisely change anything having to do with the ignition.






No offense, but you sound like you are in WAY over your head here... Some critically bad assumptions being made. Like the reason for the economy and torque of the Renesis. Very little of it has to do with the power of the ignition spark. Very much of it has to do with thermal dynamics, thermal efficiency, condensation rates, flame front speeds, port timing, and combustion chamber sealing.

Put down the tools for now, pick up reading material and start educating yourself.

i just completely reread that thread.... it was just as good the second time around

I brought the lean burn to conversation just to raise interest to subject, I'm not gonna lean the afr, at least for now. Btw thanks for the link!

No offense, but I do think that with this kind of spark, I do think there's lots of room for improvement regarding torque and fuel economy, especially if the timing can be adjusted to fit this new kind of ignition. It has been made multiple times with piston engines, so why wouldn't it fit rotarys? Other plus sides are that you can use water injection with this and the lean burn limit is very low. Isn't it all just about making the fuel burn in reasonable temperature and controllable time, afr is just numbers.

I know iat sensor is the one to modify with ordinary engines to delay ignition, I assume in this car maf has some kind iat signal going to ecu?

The principle is simpler than you might think: ordinary ignition system first makes the spark as we all know, but in the same time it also ionizes the plug cap to have so little resistance that for example 110v dc can go through with high current. So we use ac inverter, rectify it to dc and charge a capacitor between sparks, when the plug fires, the cap discharges to spark plug tip through hv diodes. Resistorless plugs are MUST for this.

Simpliest way for this if you have cdi ignition is to just connect the LV+ of ignition coil to plug tip through hv diodes. Wouldn't hurt if someone had some dirtbike and tried? Wish I knew this in my 50cc times...

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...137bf0931e.jpg

M L, I recommend you heed what RIWWP has said here, or be ready for a new engine. Is it really worth harming your engine for some possibility of minor improvement, without any extensive rotary engine research to back up your theories.

All we can do here is advise you. If you choose to kill your engine experimenting with this, and BTW you are NOT a rotary engineer, then it is all on you. It is interesting to discuss your theories, but NOT wise to experiment with your expensive engine.

So he didn't read the thread.

Key take away: Optimal fuel economy @ .92-.96 lambda

Is it really so that when someone comes up with new ideas, it's best to begin doubting his skills and knowledge and assure nothing should be done, since only god and rotary engineers should touch the almighty renesis? Seriously, the cars are getting old and cheap and they always are far from perfect coming from factory. And I know a thing or two about cars since I am car mechanic by education. I did read the thread.

Here are commercial products for the lazy ones. http://www.plasmajetignition.com. http://bluephoenixignition.com. http://www.aquapulser.com/performanc...ion/index.html

And no, I won't be here whining if the engine blows up, I was just asking for info about stock ignition management. I know perfectly well the risks.

The best afr might just be that for normal sparks, but this should be a whole other setup. And as I said, I'm not doing anything to afr, yet at least.

At least Turbo rx8 owners should be interested in this, since plasma ignition spark gets bigger and stronger when pressure rises?

Here's my affiliate link for the e-book, if you like to order it. http://www.whitedragonpress.com/go.p...eppalaa&pid=11

Umm, no. The brand/engine is irrelevant.

You're just not informed. There is no magic elixer or holy grail. Sorry.

The principle is sound and there are lots of working examples.

Index of / also has dyno tests for you to see. Official Aquapulser Blog http://www.aquapulser.com/performanc...ta/dyno-hp.gif

Of course if you've decided that there's nothing to be learned, then I cant convince you.

No one said you don't have car mechanic education. But do you have extensive rotary engine mechanical and technical education or experience ? If you do, great, but if you don't then we advise to tell you there are many unique differences between a regular piston engine and a rotary engine, including its combustion and ignition characteristics. If you wish to practice your ideas, I suggest you work on a salvaged, but working rotary engine first, and not one in your car. The cars may be cheap now, but the rotary engine and its internal parts are NOT cheap to replace or repair. And the price for a re-manufactured or rebuilt rotary engine has climbed since they went out of new production.

M L,

It was friendly advice. If you want to develop a plasma injection for the Renesis... by all means feel free to try.

Right now, it is you who have decided that there is nothing to learn about the engine or the ECU. As an engineer, I don't understand why you would refuse to educate yourself on the very nature of the engine and it's ECU first? That mentality is rather contrary to your goal.

It's pretty clear to us that you are refusing to educate yourself on it first. The clearest example is that you wouldn't be asking the questions you are about the MAF and AIT sensor inputs if you had read the thread I linked. Yes, it's about lean burn, however it is one of the most informative threads on the forum for learning how our ECU reacts to timing changes, AFR inputs, etc... If you want to play with those factors ... READ THAT THREAD. You will learn a lot that will start opening your eyes to how best to handle those aspects of your project.

I haven't decided anything like that. I did read that thread, but I simply didn't find the answer for my question, how widely the stock engine management will adjust the ignition timing, when major changes like this are introduced. I'd rather not make a complete remap at this point when I don't even know how the car will react to this.

Ordinary stock piston engines copes with this kind of ignition just fine, I have read, but it's hard to find experiences with rotary engines, that's why I'm asking how flexible rx-8 ecu is.

Direct quote from energyscienceforum, if you'd like to read.

I promised quite some time ago that'll give feedback on the Fiat Uno 1.4 carb + dizzi: Relating to leaning out... my mechanic's exhaust gas analyser reads between 0 & 10 (10=leanest) - he was reducing idle mix from 7 (!) and going below 3, he could not stop shaking his head... (4 according him is a safe lean) Uno just kept its pose, no splatter, no hiccups.

Before hand I asked him to retard timing, but he argued that if I want leaner, he should advance timing. We compromised on 10 BTDC. So down to 2, I was getting seriously worried that the staff dropped the analyser, as Uno gave no hint of trouble idle revs (even heat gauge kept normal). Then on 1 he said "thats it" and made me swear I'm not gona come sue him for burned valves.

And all this was not even with a Murakami Plasma Ignition yet!!! We just did a back-end amp jobby. On the bench we did build a plasma CDI, and then a proof of concept waste spark jobby, but rand out of funds.

But I had to reduce the fuel, cause the Uno evolved instantly into a monster after all carbon was gone from the valves and exhaust - wife's car... so she barely touched the accelerator, and the plasma attempted to change all that fuel into energy... good grief... she became a speed maniac and I started to fear for our lives... imagine the throttle cable got stuck or she hit a sudden bump?!

Any case, also run the new star type of Torque Master spark plugs I imported from USA (Daniel specially made them up non-R for us).

And I had a Stromberg high frequency spark converter (factory is here in RSA, Durban city, KwaZulu-Natal province) which I figure is basically just an air-capacitor/2nd-spark gap in the coil-to-dizzi wire to build up some capacitance before releasing the charge. Closest I could get to HV cap discharge, but the TMs large gap sure enough pulled the HV higher than normal, so I figure there were a bit more mJs, plus about 300-400v cap discharge from the back-end amp.

On level highway at 120kph (max legal in RSA) you almost gave no throttle. And if you pressed the pedal say kwarter in, within no time you had to lift off your foot very fast as it would speed past 160kph without very much effort.

It was at LOW rpm in town driving where ample higher torque was clear to ANYONE that took the Uno to a cafe or so. It didn't had a rev counter, but it sounded like you could change the gears all the way to 5th all at about 1200-1500rpm, no probs - the thing pulled like a bus.

Very odd to me I just could NOT get the mileage better than 18,8 km/L highway, and 15,5 km/L town.

Ironically the weekend before the buyer drove it away (not with the amp included of cause) I discovered that both exhaust boxes where completely buggered - very bad back-compression... and it didn't even made harsh noises, never giving that gremlyn away!

So, I guess, if anybody had any doubts, fear not - Aaron got this stuff cold... and this time around, I'll follow the 3-mods and everything other "common" sense, since our current car is a 2010 Hyundai Atos 1100cc with FI & EI waste spark!!!:cheers:

Didn't intend no taking over the thread - just want all to watch every detail on Aarons latest vids carefully and pay attention to EVERYTHING before just clamping on stuff... and the BIG thing in Waste Spark Plasma, a-la Murakami method (an evasive feat for many years now) is soon to be PROVEN by Aaron for all contributors and replicators on this thread... and everybody here will witness it 1st-hand :thanks:

We aren't bashing your plasma ignition. I think everyone here recognizes that it has value if you can pull it off.

We just take exception to the complete lack of research about this engine and ECU that would lead you to making such statements of:



The fact that you are asking these questions tells us that you are stumbling forward blindly when it comes to dealing with this engine and this ECU. Educate yourself on the subject matter of your ENTIRE application, not just the ignition hardware.

Ok, I admit, the first comment was kinda stupid and made in a hurry. I suggested iat sensor, since there are ready available piggyback modules for that. It makes just about right changes that could/should be done with plasma, delay ignition and lnject less fuel, if the o2 sensor agrees. I assume rx-8 engine management does the same way. And o2 can too be fooled to lean closed loop mode.

I'm not going to spend thousands of dollard for a programmable ecu at the time if I'm just trying to do couple simple changes to engine management, this is just a summer car, not F1. And as I said I'm not even doing that yet.

I have an egt meter and innovate wb lying around somewhere, maybe I'll install them first to get a clue what's going on.

Don't take this so seriously, I'm sure this engine isn't made of glass either. And I know I have no one to blame if it breaks than myself. And how do you know my research level when I'm trying to ask if someone knows some facts about stock ignition timing/knock sensor and sensor fooling? No one knows since no one yet answered?

The iat mod is done exactly the opposite than the "power chips" on ebay, which increases injected fuel and advances timing.

Sigh.


Your lack of literally any attempt to educate yourself just glares through with every post.


I'm going to go ahead and spoon feed you the information to make a point, and then I'm going to avoid looking in this thread.

Not for the RX-8. Every piggyback used with the RX-8's ECU has botched the whole thing terribly.

Injecting less fuel via any piggyback or tomfoolery would be overridden by the factory ECU in short order. That was a huge point proven in that thread about lean burn I linked. The factory ECU has redundancies to ensure you CAN'T run outside of the parameters. It doesn't matter how you achieve it. The factory ECU will correct for it rather quickly.

see above.

Assumptions are bad. In this case, you will assume wrong. Many other modern cars can be fooled, Mazda layered in several things to ensure that you can't with this ECU.

Also wrong. The ECU runs tests regularly against the O2 to know whether or not it can be trusted. If it can't, it defaults to something you have no control over. If it does trust it, then it will pull everything into where it expects you to be.

Actually, $250 MazdaEdit + $130 OBD2 cable = fully tuneable factory ECU. You still have several things to solve, and that thread shows how to solve them to run lean anyway. Cheaper than an aftermarket programmable ECU, and it allows you to modify just the things you want and leave everything else alone like idle stability, starting, etc...

Good, EGTs are really important for this engine, more so than a piston engine.

It's patently OBVIOUS to us. You have been given the information you need to find the answer, you just have to go read it. You clearly haven't. If you can't read what we link, how can we expect you to read what we are typing in direct reply? We call it 'spoon feeding' around here.

Open wide.

Ok, sorry for asking. I did read the thread, maybe I then missed some points. Going to reread it soon.

I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself wrong somehow, but I surely don't try to be arrogant. I know you people know more about rotary technic than I, otherwise I wouldn't be asking for your help and point of view. It's just possible and easy in many cars to slightly fool some parameters to ecu, but it seems that rx-8 is not one of them. If tuning devices are that cheap for this car, then I'll probably go that route when I have the money, and if it needs further adjustment, not worth the hassle to use piggybacks then.

Anyway, thanks for all the info. I'll get back when I get something done, still waiting for some parts to arrive.

A good ignition is a good ignition. Given some of the options out there for coils; like the IGN-1A, you are just running down a road of extremely minimal gains at best, but most likely just a lot of hassle and expense with nothing extra to show for it.

Well, we just have to agree to disagree then. My setup is done for little over 100 dollars, and I think the difference between regular and plasma spark is remarkable. Otherwise those extreme leaning examples wouldn't be possible.

I suppose my seat of the pants dyno must be out of calibration then, plus I have no desire to operate my engine under a lean condition. Funny that something which is so beneficial (your words) could be so cheaply produced on a large volume manufacturing scale is pretty much ignored by the OEMs. It must be a conspiracy, no?

You are just talking about yourself and of course you have every right not to make anything like this to your car. Did I ask you to do this as well?

you sound just like the people who put magnets on their fuel line, multi-prong spark plugs, capacitor fitted plug wires, etc. In my life I've seen a lot of people claim this or that and it was all seat of the pants BS. Needless to say, it's a fragrance I'm quite familiar with ....

At a 22:1 AFR, how hot is that exhaust going to be, assuming the engine could even run without detonation? I don't think an engine/exhaust would last very long at that.

:icon_no2:

Hey guys does anyone know the color codes of the wires that connect to the coil packs?

I need to make sure i put my coil packs on correctly.

One thing I can not understand is choose of bolt for knock sensor by Mazda.
Knock sensor is literally a mic and mounting would influence quality of knock/sound transmission. Normally they must mount on fitting like this.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...2a6fc473b8.jpg

please explain how that has any kind of benefit?

but I’ll go ahead and tell you that only exists to allow it to adapt to a larger, already-tapped non-metric threaded hole


yeah, ditto ...

.

Which one is cheaper, using Imperial bolt or customising that part ? Some common sense is not bad.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...7e24af7740.jpg
Thats why it is better to open some books instead of googling or youtubing, correct info are in books. Knock sensor's are works the best on non-threaded shank and big fat ass sit, even over/ under torquing will harm quality.
Think about putting airpods lossy in ears.

the hole in the sensor is oversize. If you want to be nit-picky then just center it before setting and torquing the bolt. However, you missed the obvious, it’s essentially useless on this engine per the discussion it this thread. I don’t even have it on mine, so that eliminates having to be a nitpicker over pointless minutia.

:Eyecrazy:
I am not expert in rx8 ECU tables, but I know it from basic ECU configuration that the knock sensor not only adjust timing it also change fuel trim
since more fuel help cooling engine. Basic is like that to hear 1st knock, prevent 2nd knock.
Another nuclear thing is, how knock could even occur as there is physical contact between rotors and housings ?
So it detonation rather knock !??

In piston engines knock happen as on pressure side of piston( in clock work engines right hand side from front view)
skirt would literally knock to cylinder wall. Physical knock sound in contrast to detonation in rotaries.