Rzoops

Glad I gave up on taking autocross seriously lol.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

So just take the bracket off

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Mike - the ruling clearly states that additional brackets are not allowed. Don't think it matters if it's one piece or several. It's a crappy ruling but it's very back & white. Perhaps we can ask for a clarification for next year.

Mark - yes, you & others have talked about the zip-ties. I'll probably just go that route.

Zelse

iTrader: (12)

This is pretty silly and I'm glad I run BSP (Bull-**** Prepared) and not STX. Seriously.

Let's start with the basics.

BHR Kit has a grounding cable to it which rule 14.9 - B states is legal.

BHR Kit has generic coils with a wire harness created by them, wrapped up and a connector added. 13.9 states - The make of spark plugs, points, ignition coil and high tension wires
is unrestricted including spark plug wires having an in-line capacitor.
(Modification of the distributor cap for the purpose of installing allowed
non-standard components is not permitted.)

Now, the way I read this new tech bulletin which is - "1. Stock: Per the SAC, the provisions of 13.9.A do not allow for modifications to the existing factory wiring harness or the addition of brackets for mounting alternate coils. (5420)". Well let's look at this real quick.... The factory wiring harness is already out of the question because we're not doing anything to it, we're plugging in some coils.

The fact that BHR has a full kit that has the coils inline on a bracket that goes in OEM location and everything connects via OEM connectors, and the ground it comes with is also legal, I'm sorry but I don't see a problem. Again, the way I read it is if I took that kit and added a bracket to it, or added a bracket to the factory coils to mount them elsewhere, for whatever reason. Says it in clear text, "addition of brackets (brackets meaning plural, so more than one) for mounting alternate coils." Well our alternate coils are on a thin bracket that goes onto the OEM bracket. Mazda Competition also has been pushing BHR ignition kits to racers whenever they can as well these days.

I think it would be poor to also protest anyone using the BHR kit because I'm fairly certain that everyone else will be. Why? Because who the hell wants misfiring on the crap OEM coils when they're racing and running that finely setup tune on their COBB? Not me. Ignition should be seen as a reliability mod and not a power mod in my eyes anyways, at least in the RX-8 given how terrible the OEM coils are.

Rzoops

Zelse, you and I are on the same thought process. I think the rules clarification is to avoid someone moving the coils to a substantially different location via a mounting bracket, in the normal sense of the word. I would consider the BHR "bracket" as more of a spacer or mounting place. In fact, I seem to recall it being called a spacer in the instructions as well. The only purpose for a mounting bracket would usually be to alter the location of something, and the BHR kit pretty plainly retains the OE location and mounting idea (those four studs).

Anyways, I hope the SP re-org goes through and the RX-8 has a more competitive BSP class to run with. I plan to do a few track-related mods that would kick me out of STX for next year anyways.

chiketkd

iTrader: (5)

After thinking about this overnight, I'd have to agree. emove the bracket - problem solved.
Definitely do this!

Zelse

iTrader: (12)

I'm pretty sure the reformed BSP will be competitive for the RX-8 and if not, the RX-8 is actually competitive in the current BSP, it's just all very course dependent unfortunately. looking forward to seeing your BSP build though Rzoops. :D

Chike, if you remove the bracket you can't mount the BHR coils onto the OEM location unless you *drum roll* make a bracket of sorts to have it bolt onto the OEM bracket.

Again, I think this is stupid and if I ran STX, I'd still run it and I would actually welcome the protest. We're not adding a bracket... we're installing a (what it's called on the website) Ignition SOLUTION KIT. With a spacer or bracket so that it CAN mount to OEM location. Without it, you can't mount ANY other damn coils to OEM location and then it makes that allowance, not applicable, which then makes the RX-8 a less desirable car to race because then that makes it so it can't be modded as much as other cars, giving other cars the advantage.

George, sorry man but I'm calling you out now. Do you REALLY see the BHR kit as a threat? Do you really read the rules in such a manner, when it clearly states "the addition of brackets" as in multiples, not just a single bracket, and that it's clearly stating adding ONLY a bracket to allow other coils..NOT a full on kit, especially when it bolts to OEM location.

dmitrik4

iTrader: (5)

A zip tie is no differen tthan the BHR bracket.



You're right; I got the Tech Bulletin wording scrambled in my head.



That said, one could consider the entire assembly to be the "coils"; these coils are simply shaped differently than the OE units. Because coils are open, you'd be OK. I'm thinking of asking for a protest next year (not as if I'm winning anyway) because I don't see them as a performance advantage and I believe they fall within the spirit of the rule.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

No problem on the call-out - that's why I posted the comment about protesting.

It's not about the threat.

It's more about the fact that if something is illegal, and there is an advantage to having it (even if it is only convenience) why should you get that mod and not me? If I went to the hassle & cost of installing new OEM coils just before nats (or improvise some sort of non-bracket solution), then you should too, since that's what the rules require for optimum performance.

You also have to remember that there are non-RX-8 drivers in STX, and I don't want to drive 1600 miles to get protested for a convenience mod that *might* also have a performance advantage. The coil mod kit is right at that threshold. So again, I took the hit; you should too. I really don't see the problem.

Also, protests are how rules get made - as you are arguing, the protest committee might say "Oh, we don't have a problem with that kind of bracket."

As for it not being a bracket, that's just BS. BHR calls it a bracket, and I've designed many a bracket in my time and I know one when I see one. If I created an engineering drawing for the kit, the name on the bracket drawing would be "Coil Mounting Bracket."

As for the use of "brackets" instead of "one or more brackets" in the bulletin, I think you are truly splitting hairs there and I doubt it would hold up, but it might.

To me, the only reason I might not protest is because of the timing - the ruling happened so close to nats (which is completely lame in my opinion) that I could see having a discussion along the lines of "this year I'll ignore it, but next year I'm going to call you out, assuming the rules don't change." That would be a very reasonable response, and I'm half way to leaving mine on and hoping for that kind of response myself, since I really don't want to attempt a zip-tie solution before a 1,600 mile road trip.

I suppose we (the RX-8 contingent) could agree to that for 2011 and hope other competitors are reasonable as well.

Zelse

iTrader: (12)

I could see the timing being a reasonable explanation and you have a point about "if I have to do it for legality reasons, you should too". Makes sense, but I guess I would leave it on and ask for a clarification on-site...OR..Do what I did when I went to Jersey. Get together everyone in STX and ask them how they feel about you running the BHR kit and explain what it does and how you believe it may not fall under that new tech rule. If a participant in STX doesn't like it, then swap to the OEM coils.

What I did in Jersey was ask everyone in BSP about my brake cylinder brace that the MS bar has. I don't necessarily think it's illegal, but it doesn't explicitly state that it is legal. Since it's very easy to remove, I simply just left it on and before we started racing, got together everyone in BSP and made sure everyone was okay with it.

At the end of the day, even the biggest jerks/******** of them all that some all know and love...we're all family. Racers are a rare breed. So just level with everyone and see how everyone feels.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

I like how you think, but this is nats. People have a reasonable expectation for your car to be 100% legal. Of course, they also have a reasonable expectation of clarity in the rules.

One way or another, I suspect this bulletin will cause a series of protests across multiple classes.

Zelse

iTrader: (12)

That's for sure. I'd still try it personally. Ask what everyone thinks in the class and do it infront of an official, that way if they try to protest after, they were okay with it and all agree'd it fell within rules which these rules are technically unclear in the first place.

Either way, good luck at Nats with that.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Thanks!

TopGear8

iTrader: (3)

I must be the only RX8 at Nats without the BHR kit...

I'm probably the only RX8 at Nats that is a GT and not a base model...

Wish me luck!

BRODA

iTrader: (7)

This idea might work... Some spark plug wire separators plus some cable management on the adapter harness might keep the coils relatively stationary. Some solid-core grounding wires landed directly to the OEM mounting bracket might also keep things from shifting around too much on course. The consequences for failure would be high, though.

Zelse

iTrader: (12)

Mike, haven't seen or heard from you at all lately. No recent pics or anything? And I thought you were considering going to BSP? Updates and pics man! Don't leave me hanging. :P

TopGear8

iTrader: (3)

Car looks the same as it did last year at Nats without the wing. I havn't really done anything to the car besides a different bar and Hankooks. Everything else is the same as last year...

Will probably stay in STX, looking to buy a Spec Miata at the end of this year and start road racing

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

I just posted this on the SCCAForums:

Hmmm. Now I'm wondering what the difference between a bracket and an adapter is. One could argue that a bracket supports the weight of something, such that without the bracket, that something would fail. But an adapter, well, that lets me use the LS2 coils with my OEM bracket.

Yes, I am getting into hair-splitting territory, but what the heck.

Zelse

iTrader: (12)

That's the spirit George People do it all the time, especially in road racing... Why can't we? Worst case scenario, bring a set of OEM plugs with you incase anyone tries to be cute.

dmitrik4

iTrader: (5)

George, you're a regular Smokey Yunick.

chiketkd

iTrader: (5)

A bracket definitely supports something (e.g. swaybar bracket). You could definitely argue that the BHR plate is an adapter.

A clarification is definitely in order...

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

It always amazes me how people will argue that black is white whenever a rules discussion starts.

A strut tower MC brace is clearly not allowed in BSP. If it doesn't say you can, then you can't It's not that hard to figure out from that perspective. Nobody is a jerk or bhole for calling you on it. You would be the jerk/bhole for trying to make them out as one for doing so.

No bracket means no bracket. You can slice and duce it anyway you want and it still means no bracket. The rule simply allows for alternate coils and nothing else. That said, this ruling is no different than any other. A protest committee may give it weight or completely disagree and rule otherwise. The question is whether or not you want to take the chance. A zip tie is no more a bracket than a bolt or nut is a bracket. A little thought and effort will still get the job done and meet the ruling without any hassle or concern. That doesn't mean you still won't be protested, but your position will be much more defensible.

If anything, finding out now rather than it blowing up in your face at Nats is much more preferable timing ....

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

It's an adapter all right. An adapter bracket. Try again ....

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

LOL.

Let me introduce you to an adiabatic Renesis...

In the end, I suspect Mark is right (which is where I was when we started this conversation).

I'm going to show up with some new OEM coils & good wires. Probably swap them out on Tuesday. Since I don't have a dedicated tune for the BHR stuff yet it's not going to make much, if any, difference in power as long as the OEM coils are fresh.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

unfortunately the wording used leaves little wiggle room in that regard

If they meant something else it will require a clarification or rewrite and that likely can't happen before Nats now ...