R3 Tires for Next Autocross Season
10-29-2013, 09:07 PM
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R3 Tires for Next Autocross Season
Hey all. I have a 2011 R3 that I've been autocrossing on the OEM tires for a little over a year now. Between now and next season I'm probably going to have these wear out, so I'd like to know what you would recommend getting.
Comments:
I'm planning to keep this car in SCCA C stock, so it needs to be legal there.
This is my daily driver, so I need a decent balance of wet/dry performance.
I don't want to pay for new wheels (and I think the OEMs are pretty sweet) so I'm sticking with those.
Before we get into brands of tire (which I'm sure will cause tons of different opinions) is there a general consensus on the size of tire that makes sense for me? Keep in mind that the OEMs are 225/40-19.
Thanks!
Comments:
I'm planning to keep this car in SCCA C stock, so it needs to be legal there.
This is my daily driver, so I need a decent balance of wet/dry performance.
I don't want to pay for new wheels (and I think the OEMs are pretty sweet) so I'm sticking with those.
Before we get into brands of tire (which I'm sure will cause tons of different opinions) is there a general consensus on the size of tire that makes sense for me? Keep in mind that the OEMs are 225/40-19.
Thanks!
10-29-2013, 09:19 PM
#2
Dunlop Z2. Those are probably the most streetable of all the good Autox tires. As far as what size to go to, I'm not sure other than stock size. Maybe someone has been running RTR can chime I'm on that. I know locally, a few guys are going to start out on 245/40/18 on a non-R3 for c-street.
Last edited by MikeTyson8MyKids; 10-29-2013 at 09:23 PM.
10-30-2013, 09:36 AM
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now that Street has replaced Stock there's no reason to pay through the nose for 19" tires to race on is there? You can change to reasonable wheel diamaters last I heard. Get light Street class legal wheels & tires, and higher mileage nicer riding and wearing tires to drive around with on the 19s.
If you're going to be hard-headed and do the 19s anyway, I've been happy enough with the street manners, speed, and wear combination I've gotten out of the Conti DW so that's what I'd do if I wasn't super competitive and only wanted 1 tire to do it all (which is what I was trying to do). I did the 245/35/19s, perfect fit imho. Too much more and you're going to start to bulge out and not gain anything from the extra width, narrower than that and you're leaving grip on the table.
If I was being stupid and sticking with 19" street tires for pure competition use when I had the option to shed weight, increase tire options, lower costs, etc, etc (see this is a bad idea! don't do 19s!!) the Bridgestone RE11 has some 245 options that'd be good (and it's 200TW) and the only other real "fast" choice in reasonable 19" diameters is the Yoko Advan which at 180TW might be too low for Street class anyway...?
I'm not 100% up on all the changes from Stock -> Street since it pisses me off to think about it. I'll defer to the experts there...
- KB, liked Stock class the way it was. Oh well!
If you're going to be hard-headed and do the 19s anyway, I've been happy enough with the street manners, speed, and wear combination I've gotten out of the Conti DW so that's what I'd do if I wasn't super competitive and only wanted 1 tire to do it all (which is what I was trying to do). I did the 245/35/19s, perfect fit imho. Too much more and you're going to start to bulge out and not gain anything from the extra width, narrower than that and you're leaving grip on the table.
If I was being stupid and sticking with 19" street tires for pure competition use when I had the option to shed weight, increase tire options, lower costs, etc, etc (see this is a bad idea! don't do 19s!!) the Bridgestone RE11 has some 245 options that'd be good (and it's 200TW) and the only other real "fast" choice in reasonable 19" diameters is the Yoko Advan which at 180TW might be too low for Street class anyway...?
I'm not 100% up on all the changes from Stock -> Street since it pisses me off to think about it. I'll defer to the experts there...
- KB, liked Stock class the way it was. Oh well!
Last edited by kbrewmr2; 10-30-2013 at 09:48 AM.
11-01-2013, 05:31 PM
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Tire Brand Advice
OK, while I'd certainly appreciate hearing any more advice on sizes if anyone has any, how about specific tires?
Tire Rack seems to love the Michelin Pilot Super Sport. Anyone tried them? Anything else that's better?
Tire Rack seems to love the Michelin Pilot Super Sport. Anyone tried them? Anything else that's better?
11-01-2013, 11:14 PM
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What kind of surface does your club run events on?
Dunlop Z2's are my preferred tire for RTR - a very good all around tire for wet, cold, dry, hot or any combination. Only problem is you're limited by the R3's 19 inch wheels to just 2 sizes: 245/40 and 274/35 (and only 1 of those is really an option). If you really like the look of the R3 wheels (I know I do), the new mazdaspeed3's use the exact same style wheels, but are 18's (no idea on the width, sorry). It might be worth looking into getting a set of those.
Hankook offers an appealing alternative (very appealing price wise and you have more than 2 sizes to pick from). I have not run them personally, but several of the local hot-shoe national level drivers seem to like them. As to exactly why, I don't know. The only thing I have heard is that they are at their best under hot conditions.
My fiance has conti's DWs on her car. Great all-around tires, but not on the same playing field as that of the aforementioned tires in terms of grip (after all they are 340 tread wear tires). Far quieter than my Z2's, a touch less responsive, and in general a more daily driver friendly tire. Also, their sidewalls aren't as stiff as the Z2's, so dialing in tire pressures took us a bit of trial and error.
Only other tire I've autocrossed on is Yokohama's S.Drives. Not terrible, but I wouldn't buy them again for autocross (they over heat and get really greasy too easily). They do make for a decent daily driver tire.
EDIT: In years past, I daily drove my miata on the Z1 star specs (same 200 tread wear rating as the Z2's). Even with my conservative alignment, they only lasted from May till October (~8,000 miles and ~12 autocross events). And this was on the miata, which is about 700 lbs shy of the R3 from the number's I've seen (have not had a chance to get my R3 on some scales).
Dunlop Z2's are my preferred tire for RTR - a very good all around tire for wet, cold, dry, hot or any combination. Only problem is you're limited by the R3's 19 inch wheels to just 2 sizes: 245/40 and 274/35 (and only 1 of those is really an option). If you really like the look of the R3 wheels (I know I do), the new mazdaspeed3's use the exact same style wheels, but are 18's (no idea on the width, sorry). It might be worth looking into getting a set of those.
Hankook offers an appealing alternative (very appealing price wise and you have more than 2 sizes to pick from). I have not run them personally, but several of the local hot-shoe national level drivers seem to like them. As to exactly why, I don't know. The only thing I have heard is that they are at their best under hot conditions.
My fiance has conti's DWs on her car. Great all-around tires, but not on the same playing field as that of the aforementioned tires in terms of grip (after all they are 340 tread wear tires). Far quieter than my Z2's, a touch less responsive, and in general a more daily driver friendly tire. Also, their sidewalls aren't as stiff as the Z2's, so dialing in tire pressures took us a bit of trial and error.
Only other tire I've autocrossed on is Yokohama's S.Drives. Not terrible, but I wouldn't buy them again for autocross (they over heat and get really greasy too easily). They do make for a decent daily driver tire.
EDIT: In years past, I daily drove my miata on the Z1 star specs (same 200 tread wear rating as the Z2's). Even with my conservative alignment, they only lasted from May till October (~8,000 miles and ~12 autocross events). And this was on the miata, which is about 700 lbs shy of the R3 from the number's I've seen (have not had a chance to get my R3 on some scales).
Last edited by poacherinthezoo; 11-01-2013 at 11:28 PM.
11-02-2013, 08:42 PM
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11-02-2013, 08:44 PM
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What kind of surface does your club run events on?
Dunlop Z2's are my preferred tire for RTR - a very good all around tire for wet, cold, dry, hot or any combination. Only problem is you're limited by the R3's 19 inch wheels to just 2 sizes: 245/40 and 274/35 (and only 1 of those is really an option). If you really like the look of the R3 wheels (I know I do), the new mazdaspeed3's use the exact same style wheels, but are 18's (no idea on the width, sorry). It might be worth looking into getting a set of those.
Hankook offers an appealing alternative (very appealing price wise and you have more than 2 sizes to pick from). I have not run them personally, but several of the local hot-shoe national level drivers seem to like them. As to exactly why, I don't know. The only thing I have heard is that they are at their best under hot conditions.
My fiance has conti's DWs on her car. Great all-around tires, but not on the same playing field as that of the aforementioned tires in terms of grip (after all they are 340 tread wear tires). Far quieter than my Z2's, a touch less responsive, and in general a more daily driver friendly tire. Also, their sidewalls aren't as stiff as the Z2's, so dialing in tire pressures took us a bit of trial and error.
Only other tire I've autocrossed on is Yokohama's S.Drives. Not terrible, but I wouldn't buy them again for autocross (they over heat and get really greasy too easily). They do make for a decent daily driver tire.
EDIT: In years past, I daily drove my miata on the Z1 star specs (same 200 tread wear rating as the Z2's). Even with my conservative alignment, they only lasted from May till October (~8,000 miles and ~12 autocross events). And this was on the miata, which is about 700 lbs shy of the R3 from the number's I've seen (have not had a chance to get my R3 on some scales).
Dunlop Z2's are my preferred tire for RTR - a very good all around tire for wet, cold, dry, hot or any combination. Only problem is you're limited by the R3's 19 inch wheels to just 2 sizes: 245/40 and 274/35 (and only 1 of those is really an option). If you really like the look of the R3 wheels (I know I do), the new mazdaspeed3's use the exact same style wheels, but are 18's (no idea on the width, sorry). It might be worth looking into getting a set of those.
Hankook offers an appealing alternative (very appealing price wise and you have more than 2 sizes to pick from). I have not run them personally, but several of the local hot-shoe national level drivers seem to like them. As to exactly why, I don't know. The only thing I have heard is that they are at their best under hot conditions.
My fiance has conti's DWs on her car. Great all-around tires, but not on the same playing field as that of the aforementioned tires in terms of grip (after all they are 340 tread wear tires). Far quieter than my Z2's, a touch less responsive, and in general a more daily driver friendly tire. Also, their sidewalls aren't as stiff as the Z2's, so dialing in tire pressures took us a bit of trial and error.
Only other tire I've autocrossed on is Yokohama's S.Drives. Not terrible, but I wouldn't buy them again for autocross (they over heat and get really greasy too easily). They do make for a decent daily driver tire.
EDIT: In years past, I daily drove my miata on the Z1 star specs (same 200 tread wear rating as the Z2's). Even with my conservative alignment, they only lasted from May till October (~8,000 miles and ~12 autocross events). And this was on the miata, which is about 700 lbs shy of the R3 from the number's I've seen (have not had a chance to get my R3 on some scales).
11-03-2013, 11:13 AM
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Howdy,
I've run the PSS, Rival, and ZII on my RTR car ('05 Sport, 18x8 wheels).
The PSS is a very clear step down and IIRC its expensive. Its also likely to be the best in wet weather. The Rival and ZII are very similar in performance. I happen to like the feel of the ZII a bit better, but the actual difference is pretty slight.
I don't know availability for 19" wheels.
Mark
I've run the PSS, Rival, and ZII on my RTR car ('05 Sport, 18x8 wheels).
The PSS is a very clear step down and IIRC its expensive. Its also likely to be the best in wet weather. The Rival and ZII are very similar in performance. I happen to like the feel of the ZII a bit better, but the actual difference is pretty slight.
I don't know availability for 19" wheels.
Mark
11-03-2013, 11:22 AM
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Howdy,
Ok, just looked at sizes. You certainly don't want an increased diameter over your factory 225/40-19 tires, so that rules out ZII's. Rival's aren't available in 19" sizes yet.
If I were buying tires, I'd probably go with the Hankook RS3's in a 235/35-19. Call Tirerack when you order and request the new ones with the 200tw rating (Hankook is in the process of changing over) if possible. It won't matter next year, but in 2015 the required tw rating goes from 140 to 200.
What I would really do would be to go to 18x8 wheels under the new +/- 1" rim allowance and then run 255/35-18 ZII's. They're a decent bit shorter than your factory tire size, but the gearing improvement will help some. It does mean you need to live with a speedo that's inaccurate, however.
Mark
Ok, just looked at sizes. You certainly don't want an increased diameter over your factory 225/40-19 tires, so that rules out ZII's. Rival's aren't available in 19" sizes yet.
If I were buying tires, I'd probably go with the Hankook RS3's in a 235/35-19. Call Tirerack when you order and request the new ones with the 200tw rating (Hankook is in the process of changing over) if possible. It won't matter next year, but in 2015 the required tw rating goes from 140 to 200.
What I would really do would be to go to 18x8 wheels under the new +/- 1" rim allowance and then run 255/35-18 ZII's. They're a decent bit shorter than your factory tire size, but the gearing improvement will help some. It does mean you need to live with a speedo that's inaccurate, however.
Mark
11-03-2013, 11:48 AM
#12
If you weren't such a greenhorn the best option is 17" for the best weight, cost, and sizing options.
Since you are, it likely doesn't matter much for an entry level driver. You are the limiting factor over anything else.
If these will also be daily driver tires then you are much better off with an all around performance tire like the Michelin PSS or Conti DW. Most seasoned competitors just aren't going to engage a greenhorn period, let alone advise you in a practical sense rather than a pure competition sense. Starting off practical is the way to go. After a season or two if you decide this is what you want to pursue (often many don't for a variety of reasons) then consider a dedicated set of wheels /tires for competition only.
Since you are, it likely doesn't matter much for an entry level driver. You are the limiting factor over anything else.
If these will also be daily driver tires then you are much better off with an all around performance tire like the Michelin PSS or Conti DW. Most seasoned competitors just aren't going to engage a greenhorn period, let alone advise you in a practical sense rather than a pure competition sense. Starting off practical is the way to go. After a season or two if you decide this is what you want to pursue (often many don't for a variety of reasons) then consider a dedicated set of wheels /tires for competition only.
11-03-2013, 01:10 PM
#13
If you weren't such a greenhorn the best option is 17" for the best weight, cost, and sizing options.
Since you are, it likely doesn't matter much for an entry level driver. You are the limiting factor over anything else.
If these will also be daily driver tires then you are much better off with an all around performance tire like the Michelin PSS or Conti DW. Most seasoned competitors just aren't going to engage a greenhorn period, let alone advise you in a practical sense rather than a pure competition sense. Starting off practical is the way to go. After a season or two if you decide this is what you want to pursue (often many don't for a variety of reasons) then consider a dedicated set of wheels /tires for competition only.
Since you are, it likely doesn't matter much for an entry level driver. You are the limiting factor over anything else.
If these will also be daily driver tires then you are much better off with an all around performance tire like the Michelin PSS or Conti DW. Most seasoned competitors just aren't going to engage a greenhorn period, let alone advise you in a practical sense rather than a pure competition sense. Starting off practical is the way to go. After a season or two if you decide this is what you want to pursue (often many don't for a variety of reasons) then consider a dedicated set of wheels /tires for competition only.
You might be able to put together a 17" wheel/tire combo for close to the same price as just 19" tires. Something like TR motorsports wheels and some RS3's.
But if you plan is c-street, then the 17" plan is moot.
11-03-2013, 02:08 PM
#14
I thought that they they passed the +/- 1" wheel diameter allowance?
Edit: they did
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-racing-...limits-249275/
.
Edit: they did
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-racing-...limits-249275/
The class will allow sway bars on the front or rear, and have a wheel diameter allowance of plus or minus one inch. Despite earlier proposals, there will be no camber allowances via camber plates, bolts or slotting.
.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 11-03-2013 at 02:12 PM.
not that anyone in their right mind would do this
11-04-2013, 10:45 AM
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R3 (and all Series 2 maybe?) has a higher numerical final drive, the slight increase in diameter is welcome (higher 2nd gear top speed). It was in my experience welcome anyway...
still outta look at 18s anyway
still outta look at 18s anyway
11-04-2013, 02:31 PM
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I had a set of Z2s for the Lobster Taco STX car, but ended up selling them before we ever got to use them. I really liked the Z1s, at least in cooler temperatures. We used RS-3s in the hotter ones, and then kinda went back and forth at nationals 2012/Prosolo finale 2012, and the 2 events we did in 2013.
What size Toyo R1R did Jeff Hurst use when he won STX? That might be an option if the "special" size is available in 18" or 19" sizes.
What size Toyo R1R did Jeff Hurst use when he won STX? That might be an option if the "special" size is available in 18" or 19" sizes.
11-05-2013, 07:43 AM
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Howdy,
Ah, sorry. I didn't catch the series 2 part there.
IMHO, you want to be geared to run outta 2nd gear around 63mph or so in an RTR / "2014 CS" RX-8. I'm not sure where you are with factory tire sizes. To me, you want to be occasionally needing 3rd on the fastest courses you go to.
Also, if you're not looking for tenths of a second at national events... Don't ******* worry about this crap. Put on some decent (Z2, RS3, Rival, RE-11, etc.) tires and drive your *** off.
Mark
IMHO, you want to be geared to run outta 2nd gear around 63mph or so in an RTR / "2014 CS" RX-8. I'm not sure where you are with factory tire sizes. To me, you want to be occasionally needing 3rd on the fastest courses you go to.
Also, if you're not looking for tenths of a second at national events... Don't ******* worry about this crap. Put on some decent (Z2, RS3, Rival, RE-11, etc.) tires and drive your *** off.
Mark
11-05-2013, 10:49 AM
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11-06-2013, 03:26 PM
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We bought PSS for the STX car early in the season as DD and rains. They are great tires, but no you will not find the ultimate time in the dry as the super street tires. I really am impressed with the PSS for all around duty. We had 245/40/18's on 18x9s and I put a few thousand miles on them up and down the east coast.
I did run them in the cool at one event early last year and they displayed excellent characteristics, but just didn't have the ultimate grip of the Rivals. I think for a street person, looking for a competent dual use tire, they are a great option. Oh and they wear like iron to boot
I did run them in the cool at one event early last year and they displayed excellent characteristics, but just didn't have the ultimate grip of the Rivals. I think for a street person, looking for a competent dual use tire, they are a great option. Oh and they wear like iron to boot
11-06-2013, 06:50 PM
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Thanks all for the comments so far.
One note - I am definitely new to autocross, and I understand that there is more time to be gained from improving me versus my car. Which is why I haven't made any mods to the car at all. But, I'm kind of stuck replacing the tires either way, so I'd like to get something worthwhile. It'd be a shame to take a car like the 8 and skimp on tires.
Also, in addition to the races, I use the car as a daily driver about 50% of the time - I have a POS for the other 50% (including crappy weather days) so the tire has to be realistic to drive on but the autocross performance is more important than the daily performance.
That said, I like what I've seen on the Z2s, but I'm also thinking that the ideal size would be a 245/35 rather than the 245/40 that they offer. In that size my options are VERY limited, but the Potenza RE-11 looks to be a good fit. Am I crazy?
Thanks!
One note - I am definitely new to autocross, and I understand that there is more time to be gained from improving me versus my car. Which is why I haven't made any mods to the car at all. But, I'm kind of stuck replacing the tires either way, so I'd like to get something worthwhile. It'd be a shame to take a car like the 8 and skimp on tires.
Also, in addition to the races, I use the car as a daily driver about 50% of the time - I have a POS for the other 50% (including crappy weather days) so the tire has to be realistic to drive on but the autocross performance is more important than the daily performance.
That said, I like what I've seen on the Z2s, but I'm also thinking that the ideal size would be a 245/35 rather than the 245/40 that they offer. In that size my options are VERY limited, but the Potenza RE-11 looks to be a good fit. Am I crazy?
Thanks!
11-06-2013, 07:48 PM
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http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....2OLD&tab=Specs On sale (140 treadwear) only $140 a piece. Give it a shot.