First autox with the RX-8 (aka RX8 vs. 370z)
 

Well, took my new (to me) Mazda out for the first time at a local event today. I can say, I do not at all regret buying it. What a blast.

I've spent the last three seasons in various 350z / 370z cars, running in street tire index BS. Huge difference between the cars.

The biggest: The effort level. At the end of a run in the Nissans, I would usually be a combination of sweaty and tired. I thought it was a product of the big jump in speed from the 944 and Type R I drove before. Not so much.

The Mazda, even with overly heat cycled factory tires, was possibly the easiest to drive car I have ever autocrossed. Turn in was so immediate, so light, and it would settle into such nice balanced semi drifts I could not believe it. It poured itself like water though the cones.

The 370z, by comparison, is a brutal beast. Devastating power, grip, and brakes, no doubt. But, I spent most of the time in that car trying to measure how much it would push or slide and leave proper margin for error. When right, I would be darn near setting the index. Get it wrong, and, let's just say I haven't had a clean run in the last three events I did in the car.

Common in the 350z:

https://i38.tinypic.com/2a3yhf.jpg

Less than 1 second separated my runs today. In a car I've never driven. That speaks volumes. Another veteran autocrosser rode shotgun for a run, and the term he used pretty much summed it up for me: organic.

I can't wait for next season to get a set of serious meats on there and see if I can finally set an index.

Oh- one more thing. I really need to learn precision all over again. I haven't been able / needed to place a car well since my Integra days. This car is surgical, and I need to relearn how to exploit that.

nice review!

Remember the RX-8 can do more with less tires because it is more balance and go slower approaching the turn ins, the Z absolutely can't be driven hard without sticky tires.

great review and writeup!

Screw the review, the picture is worth 1,000 words! :lol:

Good stuff man. I rode around with a 370z novice at a Porsche club school once. It was a Nismo and the power difference from my 8 was staggering. I think once people start to figure that car out, it's going to be a beast to try and beat. That said, I turned around and gave the guy a ride and he was blown away, so go figure.

From the way you're talking, sounds like you've done a lot of Autocrossing. If you don't mind me asking, how long have you been punishing cones and what other cars have been your mains?

About 12 years of local - level autocrossing.

Cars I've driven for complete/near complete seasons:

https://i43.tinypic.com/1zn39js.jpg

The #4 was earned - 4th place overall on PAX. Unfortunately, I think I'm going to drop to 7 or so this year. I'm hoping the RX-8 can help me get a lower number next season!

I have the need to quote that. :mdrmed:
nice review

Should be fun to follow your progress! :D:

Do you have any plans to drive the 370 more? We've yet to have one show up out here in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing (though one of the new Camaros has been making appearances and is starting to figure out what's what). I really want to see that and a Genesis do a few runs being pushed.

excellent write-up!
that picture sums it all up quite nicely. Can't wait to hear how next season goes for you

I don't think I'll have a 370 back out again, unfortunately. I think it has potential to be a class killer, but high entry price, no setup direction, and $$$ 19" Hoosiers will keep the Mazda around for a little longer.

Went out to the SCCA Season Ender yesterday. Very cold concrete plus my bad shape secondhand tires made for zero grip. Charged too hard into almost every corner. I did take a video of my wheel work though, and I was under the impression I was smoother. Any comments?

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Wow, it looked like there was no grip out there, now I'm not so disappointed for missing the season ender. I've been to a few Detroit area events and I recognize the 370z. I drive a red s2000 and just picked up an RX-8. I got street tire top time at a Detroit Sports Car Club after you coned away a faster run in your 370z :D

It looks like you're still hustling that car around, I don't think the RX-8 is that kind of car. I've seen you just toss the 370z in to a corner and let the power pull you out. The RX-8, like the s2000, may need a bit gentler touch, a bit more momentum and choosing the right line.

I'm probably going to stick with the s2000 for autocrossing, especially now with the new STR class. But I'll definitely bring out the RX-8 for one autocross to try out B Stock. See you around next season.

Awesome! Come introduce yourself next time.

Yeah, the concrete at Belle Isle is notoriously slippery. Add in 40° temps, running first heat, and 2nd hand tires that must have seen a track day or two before I got them - and that first run is the result. Are you going to make the MSCC double event?

I'm pretty sure you're right about RX8 technique. I got spoiled and lazy driving the Nissans. I know I was precise at one time, hopefully I can get it back.

The only thing I can see is that you were sawing the wheel quite a bit, try turning in a little earlier but with a little less steering input. You will scrub a lot less speed that way, you will also get a lot less understeer too. As a rule of thumb, I usually don't crank the wheel more than one turn.

I did an autox last Sunday in 35F weather with rain/ice coming down, very interesting time of the year to race cars in the north. We all need to move to California.


Oh and what the hell, the lot is big and smooth. We don't get any of that here in the northeast!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't even use 2nd gear in most lots here in CT!

The lot is smooth, but not big. It's also the slipperiest piece of concrete that I've ever been on while still being pretty hard on tires. After every event there, my car is covered with expensive dust that's been abraded off of everybody fancy tires and failed to stick to the ground.

Matt, when I rode with you in the Z, I noticed that you spun the wheels and slid the car around a lot more than I'm accustomed to doing in my car (outside of a rallycross). Your times showed that the car rewarded that style of driving, but it seems like the RX-8 likes to stay a little more planted. I think I'll try to set up a similar camera shot at this weekend's event to see how my steering input compares to yours.

go run a season or two in a shifter kart... you'll learn surgical, placement, and the whole < is > thing, especially with regard to steering. After doing a couple seasons in a kart I got back into a car and what a difference it was, things felt so slow that I had tons of time to setup and I don't quite know how to explain it but you don't feel like your throwing the steering wheel around as much and you find yourself using the throttle more. I ran a Turbo FC RX7 for a few years before the Kart.

Just to bring this full circle, I had a unique ability to drive my car back to back with a 370z today. I now have Star Specs on the RX8, but the rest is OEM - and my alignment adjusters are seized. Fair comparison, as the 370 is also OEM down to the alignment.

One caveat: the course was painfully tight - a slow hairpin followed by a short squirt about 5 times. A torque and tire course which played to the Nissan's strengths, save the LSD issues. The course was also very narrow, and didn't allow for much line interpretation.

Non-autocross specific:
The Z looks about a foot shorter and a foot wider in person. I'm exaggerating, but funny to see them side by side. I usually thing of my car as small. Perhaps not so much. The Z has a much more claustrophobic, but prettier interior. A heavy clutch and a heavy shift motion with a much lower feeling pivot point. Visibility out of the Nissan stinks in all directions - you're in a bath tub.

Weight:
The first thing I noticed, the Nissan felt like I was herding twice as many cattle through the same fence. Going into the first turn, I actually said aloud, "Man, this thing is heavy!."

Steering:
Again, I could not place the 370 anywhere near as accurately as the Mazda. I'm going to fault a lack of communication in the steering. It's plenty quick and has a nice small steering wheel, but after the RX8 it's a touch numb and over boosted. I found it best to aim about a foot off the apexes to allow for margin of error.

Power:
No contest. The straights were barely a touch too long for all first in the Mazda, which means I really was lugging 2nd. The 370 again struggled putting power to the inside rear as I fed in power, but man did it shoot like a cannon once I got the wheel straight.

Balance:
The 370 is a whole lot stiffer. It sets in what seemed like half the time. (I'm still on OEM Mazda shocks.) However, the RX8 does this truly magical thing where all 4 tires feel perfectly in harmony and the car pivots around the driver's seat. The Z feels more nose-heavy, like the axis of rotation is in front of the driver.

The course was a bit too slow for me to get on the bars on the RX8, so it pushed more than normal. The Z had some push too, but I could get rotation on command with the right foot. Fun.

Grip:
Both street tires. Star Specs on the Mazda, OEM Z tires. Felt about the same, but felt I was working the outer fronts on the big car much more.

Overall:
I more enjoyed driving the Mazda. It's more like a good dance partner, working together in rhythm. It rewards proper technique. The 370z was like commanding an army to storm a castle. Less intimate involvement, but still a ton of fun - if in a different way.

Result:
I was 0.2 sec faster in the Z. Honestly, it felt way, way faster than that. I have no idea where the RX8 gets it's speed from. On that course, I should have crushed my time in the Mazda.

Again, I'm a casual level driver so don't read into it too much. I like getting trophies and all, but at the end of the day I want to have more fun than anyone else. The Mazda is threatening to dethrone the Type R as my favorite autocross car I've tried - managing the weight transfer properly though a high speed Chicago box is about the most gosh darn rewarding thing I've done on 4 wheels.

I'll see how the season shapes up, but so far I'm indexing higher average points this year in the RX8 than last year in the 370.

I really enjoyed reading that, the detail of description made me feel like I was there. Good stuff.

we have two Zs and my RX-8 in my region. so far in my experience, the Zs are slightly but consistently faster, even considering the better drivers in the 370s.

shocks make a HUGE difference in the RX-8.

pfffffft ....



.

I had to quote that line...I know exactly the moment you describe. When it happens, its like a moment of enlightenment as I become one with the car! It really is magical.

LOL. :) i would prefer to think otherwise, but Junior put a big hurtin' on the rest of us recently. regional competition is not the best gauge, and i would like to see someone like Isley or Heitkotter in an RX-8 this year to see how it really stacks up (Daddio, where'd you go?), but can only report what i see. those things are friggin fast.

I so want to be able to play the "I told you so" card! We'll see.

I think it's mostly fallen victim to it's predecessor. "The 350z couldn't get it done, so why would the 370" is probably why people are slow to take up on it.

The two I've driven have been animals, way more than even the late HR powered 350z. I think someone with more skill than I have could really make a set up one sing.

The RX8 is an easier fruit to juice, though.

Don't taunt me. My alignment adjusters are seized, so I know I can't get the shocks out. Maybe next year's budget...

:suspect: You, or your installer, don't know what they are doing. There is zero reason to remove any of the cam bolts during a shock change. :dunno:

Is it possible to remove the shocks without removing any bolt that travels through a metal sleeve? I've never looked up an install thread, but that was my mental note last time I looked at the suspension.

Not that it matters too much, without a proper alignment I'm never going to get the car as fast as it can be anyways.