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I'm certain the ABS system will not work without CAN communications from either the stock ECU or a stand-alone. This is possible with MoTec and Adaptronic stand alones, although currently only one person has it working with MoTec to my knowledge, and Adaptronic only works with manual trans, no DSC ABS units currently.
I don’t want to modify the ABS in any way, just want it functional. To be clear there are no other modules on the car to interface with. Has anyone successfully run the factory RX8 ABS as a stand alone system and if so what does it take is the only question.
Do you have a facespace account? The "LS Powered RX8" group is a pretty good body of knowledge.
I'm certain the ABS system will not work without CAN communications from either the stock ECU or a stand-alone. This is possible with MoTec and Adaptronic stand alones, although currently only one person has it working with MoTec to my knowledge, and Adaptronic only works with manual trans, no DSC ABS units currently.
Well that really sucks. Any possibility one could wire in the stock ECU just enough to make the ABS work - power, ground, whatever wire that signals the ABS? Alternately has anyone found an aftermarket ABS to integrate with the Mazda speed sensors and such?
A lot of V8 swap guys do this.
They keep the RX-8 ECU in place to operate the OE dash and such. Many put the ESS tone wheel on the crank for RPM measurement to keep the factory EPS system running.
I know some other have tried to emulate the ECU's CAN signals with an Arduino or RPi but CAN messaging information is somewhat scant so not all functions can be emulated this way.
IIRC, Touge Factory near Chicago built an LSX RX-8 that looked and functioned nearly identical to stock. Jason Saini brought it out to an autocross event and I got a ride in it (total BEAST!). I don't know if it had functioning ABS (and Jason's a good enough driver that I couldn't tell) but I think it had functioning ABS. You might want to see if Touge Factory or Jason can/will do some consulting to get this issue solved.
We've gotten CAN functionality working through Megasquirt on the BMW, so I'm hoping we can get the same working on the RX-8. I would definitely not want to run a stock ECU...
Just bought an RX-8 for E Production in SCCA. I'm looking to loose weight and the harness is 28 pounds. This looks promising but I'm wondering if anybody has used it.
MAZDA RX8 BRAKE BIAS SERVO REPLACEMENT PEDAL BOX KIT – HYDRAULIC DUAL AP CYLINDER [KIT B
The easy button for ABS is just to convert the ABS module to one from a non-DSC car. Then you have standalone ABS that doesn't require the factory ECU.
The easy button for ABS is just to convert the ABS module to one from a non-DSC car. Then you have standalone ABS that doesn't require the factory ECU.
is this a common swap? i many have to look into that.
is this a common swap? i many have to look into that.
Probably not, but non-DSC cars are not exactly uncommon and it sure makes swapping different engines / engine management systems a lot easier than starting with a DSC car.
I put balance bar with dual masters on my old car (240Z) and after lots of tweaking, trying different pads, playing with master sizes, etc got it OK but never awesome and flatspotted a bunch of tires in the process. The RX8 ABS is magic in comparison. And the DSC to non DSC ABS swap is not a bolt-on. The modules are completely different in every way so make sure to source EVERYTHING from a donor - lines, electrical connector (will have to splice into harness), master cyl, mount, etc. But the non-DSC ABS will run standalone as that’s what I run.
Unfortunately, the rule book does not allow ABS at all. I'll be the first one in and let everybody know how it works...I'll be at Hallet in Jennings OK the last weekend in March, then VIR the second weekend in April.
I think I may be the 1st to have an S-5 13b in an RX-8....If anybody knows anybody else, please let me know.
I will be very interested to hear your thoughts. The ABS/EBD system in the RX-8 has a pretty terrible failure mode, but it's so magical under braking that I am loathe to remove it.
I tried running without ABS at thunderhill track and the rears would lock up before the front under heavy braking. I actually spun under braking. With the ABS back on and it was much better.
The easy button for ABS is just to convert the ABS module to one from a non-DSC car. Then you have standalone ABS that doesn't require the factory ECU.
I know this is an old thread but I've been looking for that easy button. I'm trying to convert. Do i need to convert the entire harness as well? Or can I just cut off a pig tail and wire it in? The Bosch plus is completely different then the Sumitomo that I'm switching to. I heard that the hard lines are a little different as well but i can work around that,
FYI I'm buying the Sumutomo unit off eBay and no one will sell me the pig tail so I'm going to cut one off a Mazda 6 at a pull a part and unpin it.
I know this is an old thread but I've been looking for that easy button. I'm trying to convert. Do i need to convert the entire harness as well? Or can I just cut off a pig tail and wire it in? The Bosch plus is completely different then the Sumitomo that I'm switching to. I heard that the hard lines are a little different as well but i can work around that,
FYI I'm buying the Sumutomo unit off eBay and no one will sell me the pig tail so I'm going to cut one off a Mazda 6 at a pull a part and unpin it.
You don't need to convert the entire wiring harness. Buy the non-DSC pigtail and wire it in appropriately. You will have to change the flare fittings (or adapt them) at the ABS unit.
Amazing news thanks John, Is there a wiring diagram available. I feel like I've seen them before but can't find it for the life of me. I have access to all the books on line but can't seem to find it. Is it a hidden menu in the TM that I'm overlooking?
Matter of fact I know they exist because used it to make to make sure that I have the correct plug to the correct coil..
I used the sumitomo abs on my swap. Wiring is straight forward if you have the pigtail from the donor. Match color to color and and an additional 12V power wire. Link to Service Manual
13 electrical (Pages 122-127) for the diagrams
I couldn't find anywhere to buy the connector on its own; fortunately I found one that came with the pigtail.
An option would be to buy the right terminals (I believe they are Sumitomo TS 90 and TS 187,) crimp them to some wires, plug the terminals into the socket and use an epoxy potting compound to retain them. Then use a deutsch connector or other connector of your choice to make your connection to the RX8 harness.
The Bosch DSC unit uses 6mm lines with bubble flares and m12x1.0 tube nuts; DSC equipped cars also have a master cylinder that use m12 bubble flare fittings.
The Sumitomo unit uses 4.75mm lines with inverted flares and m10x1.0 tube nuts; non-dsc equipped cars have a master cylinder that uses m10 inverted flare fittings.
Lines to the wheels are 4.75mm on both DSC and Non-DSC, but are bubble flare on the DSC and inverted flare on the Non-DSC.
The master cylinder is identical between DSC and Non-DSC besides the the size of the fittings. You can either use adapters or swap to a non-DSC master cylinder
You'll need to re-flare the lines to the wheels or use an adapter.
There is another option, although more expensive.
The Bosch DSC MK60 abs from a BMW M3 can be retrofitted.
It's similar to the DSC in the RX8 but a bit more advanced, and it does not need to have the RX8 ECU functional to work. A good choice if you have to an aftermarket ecu or swapped powertrain.
It's becoming popular for retrofitting older cars to more modern ABS/DSC as well as a substantially cheaper alternative to a motorsports ABS unit like a Bosch M4 or M5.
@Stubbs
Thanks for that detailed reply you hit everything. I believe the Mazda 6 used the same gen Sumitomo abs pump and there everywhere at my pull a parts. I just wanted the wiring diagram incase they used different wire colors in the 6. I haven't had any luck finding a cut Sumitomo pig tail from an rx8.
As far as the lines go, with my car being a DSC model and them being 6mm do I need to replace all of the brake lines since the Sumitomo uses 4.75mm? I guess in my mind I was just going to un-flare swap tube nuts and re-flare at the pump and just be done. I'd love to avoid redoing all the brake lines if at all possible but it could be a good learning experience.
Provided I can keep the lines could I just put adapters on for the pump side? Example
I have seen the MK60 option which looks awesome, but at $1000 + Pump + 4 new sensors its getting expensive and for endurance racing I need to get a fuel cell before that and just don't have the budget currently. Technically everything works I'm just looking to throw my Haltech in for better engine management that I have sitting.
The adapter you linked should work to adapt the DSC master and 6mm lines to the Sumitomo abs.
You'll need m10x1 bubble female to M10x1 inverted flare male to adapt the 4.75mm lines going to the wheels.
One thing you'll need to confirm is if the flares on the Bosch DSC are SAE bubble or DIN/ISO bubble. SAE and DIN/ISO are both bubble flares, but they have some differences. I believe they are interchangeable but I'm not certain. Bosch, being euro, is likely DIN/ISO.
The terminals I mentioned (These: TS 090 and TS 187) are the contacts that make the connection, not the connectors themselves. Essentially you are creating a permanently affixed pigtail off the abs module so you can use a new off the shelf connector to make the connection to the RX8 wiring. It's a solution if the correct connector can't be sourced.
However, if the Mazda 6 has the right connector and is readily available then that's the better choice.
Looks like I’ll be doing a DSC to non-DSC conversion on a 2004 RX8 in the (hopefully) not too distant future and will document my experience in this thread. The DSC vehicle currently is defaulting off on DSC-ABS. I’m hopeful that the swap will resolve that and there aren’t other issues, but won’t know until then.
Not having ABS is bad enough, but 500+ whp coupled with front brakes that default to ice mode without too much braking load is not an ideal situation. Down right unnerving is how I’d describe it. The plan is to try and de-pin the wires from the DSC wiring connector and swap the appropriate ones into non-DSC connector rather than splicing them.
The terminals from the DSC connector housing aren't compatible with connector housing on the non-dsc housing.
The DSC connector terminals are TE/AMP Junior Timer series(first picture.) The Non-DSC connector terminals are Sumitomo TS series (picture 2 and 3 are TS 090 sealed, 4 and 5 are TS 187 sealed.
They are different form factor and the retention is opposite (TE retention tangs are on the terminal, Sumitomo retention tang is in the connector housing.)
If you don't want to splice you can order the terminals and seals for the Sumitomo connector, de-pin the DSC connector and cut the old terminals off, and crimp the new ones on. The harness should have enough length.
08-27-2018, 10:55 AM
and much appreciated.