Negative Press in the Toronto Star
 

Had 2 calls this morning alerting me to an article in our local paper.

It is regarding the flooding issue that we all are very aware of:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...=1117231810125

It may require you login, so here is the story...
 

$40,000 car may not start if stopped cold

ELLEN ROSEMAN

At age 48, Kevin Nullmeyer thought his sports car days were behind him.

But last July, he paid $40,000 for his "midlife crisis car," a 2004 Mazda RX-8, designed to seat four adults.

"It's a fabulous car and I love it," says Nullmeyer, who has already driven 30,000 kilometres in less than a year of ownership. "My kids, age 8 and 10, think it's the coolest thing."

There's a potential problem, however, that makes him nervous. The car has a rotary engine, which is known to stall and flood with gas under certain conditions.

All rotary engines, including those found in previous Mazda RX-7 models (last sold in 1996), are susceptible, says Mazda Canada Inc. president Michael Benchimol.

"Because the rotary engine is so unique and different, it also has characteristics of its own. One of these characteristics is that the engine may experience difficulties starting if it is not properly warmed up during the previous usage," he wrote to Nullmeyer last September.

The salesperson at Downtown Mazda didn't tell him about problems starting the car if it wasn't warmed up, Nullmeyer says. Neither did the owner's manual, which he read carefully.

So, he was surprised by an incident last August at his cottage. He started the car on a Saturday morning and moved it 30 metres up the driveway to get away from tree sap.

On Sunday night, with his family inside ready to head back to Toronto, the car wouldn't start.

"One hour later, after trying the instructions in the manual over 20 times, phoning my brother to come over and help me, and then trying anything we could think of, we finally were able to barely get the car started," he says.

He searched the Internet to find out about engine flooding with the Mazda RX-8 and found he wasn't alone.

We did our own search and found many similar stories, including one from a female owner who gave the car a one-star rating (out of five) at Consumer Reports magazine's website. "A nightmare for any woman," she wrote. "Cannot move to wash, etc., or engine will flood."

Mazda put out a service bulletin in February, which can be found online, covering repair techniques for flooded 2004 and 2005 RX-8 models that have to be towed into dealerships. (The title: "Engine cranks no start.")

Nullmeyer wants Mazda to cover towing and repair costs under the three-year warranty in case the car won't start again. He also wants an extended warranty to help with resale value.

Gregory Young, a spokesman for Mazda Canada, said new cars come with a three-year roadside assistance program thatcovers towing to Mazda dealers up to 100 kilometres away.

What about repairs? The dealer has to spend an hour or two removing spark plugs and excess gasoline and letting everything dry out.

"Our corporate warranty covers all repair work in the first instance, but not subsequent incidents," Young says.

That's because Mazda dealers are supposed to explain proper starting procedures to RX-8 owners, which should prevent problems from recurring.

"But we think we've eliminated the flooding problem," Young said. "We've come up with a solution, involving a more powerful starter, heavier spark plugs and changes to the engine's computer."

Nullmeyer received the free adjustments, as did other owners who went to their dealerships for regularly scheduled maintenance.

However, Mazda Canada did not recall the model for repairs, Young said. Nor did it communicate with every RX-8 buyer.

Simon Derderian, general manager of Downtown Mazda, told us that engine flooding isn't a common problem.

"If we sold 30 cars last year, about five came back with a flooding problems."

At a meeting with Nullmeyer last February, Derderian says he was willing to buy back the car at the current retail price — then about $35,000. "But he didn't give me the chance to make an offer."

Nullmeyer says he didn't negotiate a buyback price since he felt he would lose too much to depreciation in the first year.

We think Mazda Canada can do a better job of disclosure. For example, Young told us that there's no information for prospective RX-8 buyers on the company's website, only for those who already own the car.

To be upfront with customers, Mazda should have customers sign a notice saying they'd been informed of the problem before buying, Nullmeyer says.

To avoid being stranded, he makes sure to keep the car idling for five minutes after short trips to the bank or gas station or to visit his children's friends nearby.

"I'm stuck with the only $40,000 new car in the world that won't restart when turned off cold," he says

damn
 

that sux...damage control?

whiiiiiiiiiny.

Don't all you have to do to prevent this is if your just gonna have the car on for a few seconds...rev it to 4krpms a few times to warm it up?

If he don't want "to be stuck with a 40,000 dollar car that won't start" then he should do some research before make a purchase that big. I know its horrible to read and learn something new. :eek:

This happened to my car once.

It was just maybe 2 weeks ago, maybe less. Got in the RX8 after not cranking it for a Week & 2 days and it wouldnt start. Finally after about 10 minutes of messing around and tinkering with stuff the car started and started shaking the whole car like I had just dropped in a v8 or possibly a v10, it just gave me a tretchorous feeling that something was totally f*cked up. I shut the car off immediately thinking about what could be wrong then I remembered the problems with rotary engines flooding. Got back in my car tried starting it up again and it was doing the same thing but I let it sit there for about 2-3 minutes running at idle and everything smoothed out.

Well thats about the most horrid thing thats happened with me and the 8.

Let that be a lesson to you! Dont let a Rotary Car sit for over a week without cranking!

In the owner's manual it specifically states the procedure necessary to prevent flooding. If he wants to talk about how Mazda should inform their customers how about he also look in the owner's manual a little more closely and see what he overlooked. I can sympathize with the rest of his general concern over Mazda's failure to be forthright with their customers, though. I didn't expect a completely new model vehicle to be trouble-free the first year out but it would be nice if Mazda just admitted their difficulties and communicated with their customers while they developed solutions to the various concerns/problems.

I'll bet the next move the guy in the story makes is to get himself a Lotus Elise and complain that it doesn't drive in the snow very well or have a big enough trunk.

CRH

All cars have their problems, and some have more problems than others. If you go out and buy a car without doing your homework, what do you expect? That particular lady who bought the 8 with the flooding problem, and then gave a one out of five stars on consumer reports is an idiot.

I bought the RX-8 knowing all its faults and annoyannces and balanced these with the positive aspects of this superior engineered car. I take special precautions in order to avoid flooding. My 8 has never flooded.

What is so difficult about this issue? This is not rocket science...

Man the guy featured in this article is an idiot. It's his own damn fault for flooding the engine. You know he's probably a friend of the writer of the article and just wanted to vent through her.

If they wanted to print an article like this then every week they would have to feature a different car. This week will be the 8. Next week will be the WRX cuz of it "weak" tranny ... cuz some dumbass dropped his clutch at redline and wonders "Man, I paid for a world class rally car and it breaks". The week after it'll be the Lexus SC430/440 because of its electrical problems.

To add to the negative press, my father told me he read an article in some car buyers guide that puts the 8 in the "not reliable sports car" category. We apparently were 4th from the bottom. That really pissed me off because I would like see who they surveyed (they apparently surveyed actual owners).

It's consumer reports and yes it's from actual owner surveys. JD Power also does an initial quality survey which may have been scewed a bit by RX-8 flooding problems. Mazda ended up second to last beating out only Suzuki. The flooding thing for some may not be a big deal but it's enough that it would probably prevent me from ever buying the car no matter how much I loved it. I depend on my car more than most people and often make severla 5 min. or less trips every day. Had I bought an RX-8 and was not informed of this issue I would have been pissed when I'm missing important appointments because my new 30k car flooded.

When will NEW rotary engine owners realise that these engines and cars are unique and have special needs and are NOT the same as common (Normal) engines.

I would like to point out that since my M flash I have had no flooding problems and prior to that I had only 1 hard start. By that I mean that it took about 3 more seconds of cranking before it started. Since then, I have had no issues with hard starts/flooding. It seems like every day I forget something in the house and have to shut my engine off after running it for about 10 seconds after a cold start. I hesitate to do that but I haven't had any trouble(besides the more serious stuff lately).

CRH

I've cold started and short-stopped my 2005 numerous times without issue so it most be corrected now

Ok, rotary new guy here. Before buying my '04 RX-8, I swore by the all American V8. I mean, come on, My posting name here is Muscle Car Convert. My avatar is a 1969 Mach I Mustang. It's the car I grew up in. Litterally. I bought it from dear old mom. Now, I know I'm new to this extreemly cool car and everything, but not even I have ever flooded my RX-8 in nearly 30,000 miles! That's over a year, two winters, car washes in the driveway every two weeks, moving the car simply get it away from mowing the grass, and it's never flooded. How hard is it to listen to your dealer, read the manual and simply blip the throttle to 3k before shutting it off. The writer for that article need to print a retraction.

Even though he whines like every other grampas, he did make a good point.
Mazda should brief their sales person properly about the characteristics of the engine, including any quirks like the mentioned cold start problem.

But to his last statement, all I would like to say is that:
You own the only rotary engine production car in the world, take it or leave it.
Dont like it? Buy a piston gramps...

Yah someone should call the newspaper and show them the flooding instructions what idiots he didnt read it he just lied to her.

^^^^ Thanks for volunteering :p

Did this guy ever hear of this place? Searched the Internet my ass. Your answer is not going to be in robotpenises.com. Besides, I think the manual has a procedure for preventing flood. And if it isn't there, at least the dealer should know. Mine did. Negative press indeed.

Yes, the article says that he followed the flooding procedure in the manual... AFTER he said the manual makes no mention of the flooding issue. Hmmmm. :rolleyes:

Well that wasn't really a bad article per-say in that some of it is true, though no common. They explained that it has pretty much been solved etc. Hopefully future owners will notice this, and when I recently bought mine the dealership did go over the flooding and pointing out the prevention and solution to it.

But you can't expect everyday car buyer to go learn everything about a car, some do but most aren't the crazy car lovers we are. for shame on them :)

Hahhahahaha...that's my home page! I love that site.

These guys are a f*cking idiots for not doing their homework anyways! People who complains about flooding are people that bought the car for looks and not for the uniqueness of the rotary engine. They obviously have no idea what kind of engine they have and chances are, they don't know how to work lawn mowers or their penises. SHAME ON THOSE PRESS PEOPLE AND THOSE RX8 BUYERS WHO HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT THE ROTARY ENGINES!!

how about the little card that came with the car? how about the dvd? morons...

Yeah, stories like that paint a picture of the RX8 which is not fair at all. I think alot of the floods could have been prevented if the people knew more about the rotary engine and yes "RESEARCHED" about the car from mag's and owners.

I've had my 8 since December 2004 with virtually no issues and I take it on short trips sometimes without a problem. My Church is like 2 miles away and it takes me less than 5 min to get there (the engine does get to normal temps) and I have never had an issue either.

Ike...5 min drives should not be a problem AT ALL considering my drive to Church is about 2-3 min...

Side Note: I am going to complain about:

Slight lack of power at times (I want the P Flash...lol)
Headliner (has a part where it looks like it's all fuzzy...going to come apart or something)
Start up is not "instant" sometimes (I want that new alternator/battery...lol)

The only other thing that has ever happened is one time the engine felt like it was going to cut off on me...other than the above (which happened once or rarely) my 8 has had ZERO issues and has never left me stranded.

That man is a whiny idiot who knows nothing aobut his car.

If he had read the manual he would know better than to complain about something that was his fault.

**my salesman DID tell me all that stuff

Must have been a slow day in the news.... but I have had problems starting ever since my engine flooded and was "fixed"

and as far as reving it to 4k a few times .... if your sitting in minus 40 weather thats not quite gonna get it warm ...

but the guy is an idiot. it is a problem with the car, but if could do it all over again, i wouldnt change a thing...

well i can sympathize a little.

i never received a dvd. i didn't read the owner's manual really (i very very quickly skimmed it). i didn't know about flooding until i came to this site actually (like 3 weeks after i got my 8). the dealer barely mentioned it. he just mentioned something like "oh you're going to want to check the oil every now and then since it uses oil faster, and don't shut the engine off cold. have a nice day!"

even then and even though this was my first manual car (that means i stalled about 10000000x when the engine was cold), i never really flooded. i think i came close once; i stalled at a light and i couldn't start my car. i had to try like 8 times before i got it to start. i didn't do any anti flooding procedures (well, i didn't even think i flooded).

the dealer messed up in this one in my opinion. the guy should be told about the potential problems with the car. if he was properly told, then he's just an idiot. most people dont' read their owner's manuals. you can call them idiots and what not for not reading their owners manuals, but most don't. i am one of them. i don't read the instruction manual pretty much for anything i think i can figure out myself. of course the guy lying out of his ass about reading the manual is poor though.

oh and for the anti-flooding shutdown procedures it's rev to 4K and shut off the engine while at 4K i think. if i remember correctly, this causes the engine to spin a few more cycles after the car is off and it'll empty the gas from the engine.

i like how tthe article quoted an anonymous complaint on consumer reports . surprised he didnt pick the really stupid "my car blew up the day i bought it" complaints from msn.....

I too can symphatize with him. My salesman did told me about the idiosyncracies of maintaining the rotary engine, but that is AFTER I've signed the contract and handed over the money. No salesman in his right mind would tell you about those points before you commit to the purchase. So, if there is someone who is interested in the car, but didn't know about the RX8 forums, he is not going to get informed from the salesman who's trying his best to close the sale.

I can see the angle the writer is comming from. When I bought my RX8 the dealer knew nothing about the rotary motor. His discription was it is basically the same motor that is in the S2000 but rotary. Then he went to explain that instead of 4 cylinders it had 4 rotars to replace the pistons. I had done my research already and asked him about oil topping off, and he said "oh no, this is the year 2004, and this is not the RX7" and then started to chuckle. I was also told there are no flooding issuse or gas milage problems, according to the salesmen the RX8 got better gas milage than advertised on the window sticker. I did not buy my car from this dealer.

Yes, you do need to do your research before buying and read the owners manual but I can see where some people may just listen to the salesmen/dealer which will do anything to get you in the car, and out the door.

I purchased my 8 from a toronto area dealer (i'm in the suburbs) and they did inform me of engine flooding and the deflood procedure. They even, and I have to stress this, included a one page print out explaining the oil has to be constantly monitored, how to deflood the engine, and how to prevent engine flooding. And they placed it right on the drivers seat the day I bought the car (and they told me all of this prior to signing anything as well).. so i have no clue what this guy is talking about.. Hell I think i'm going to email the star and inform them how misinformed their story is..

I've owned this car for almost a year now. I have never flooded the engine, i stored it for a few months at the beginning of winter and had no issues starting it once a week and going for a little drive.. Hell I even went to Argentina for 2 weeks in december and was able to start my car after 2 weeks of no starting in -30 degree weather..

So yes, this guy is a moron and has not done his homework.. Hopefully this negative press stops idiots like this from buying the 8 and we can be a little more unique up here in Toronto.


MrJynx

My dealer also gave me a print out about warming the car up, oil, and flooding issues I was to happy to have the car to care. I have had no major problems with my car other than it being a A/T but that still might change soon.