"Mazda expects to recall RX-8s"
08-26-2006, 11:03 PM
#901
I don't buy Kool-Aid
Wow after all 60 pages all I have to say is; So whos going to run out and buy the Kabura? lol
http://www.kaburaforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50
http://www.kaburaforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50
08-26-2006, 11:19 PM
#902
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Originally Posted by New Yorker
OMG, this is exactly the sort of thing I was afraid of… the "problems" of the RX-8 are WAY overblown! What if I told you most 8 owners have never flooded their car? The early RX-8's (purchased in 2003-04) could be flooded if their owners started the car, backed it out of the garage onto the driveway and then turned it off—without letting the engine warm up first. That was the reason the vast majority of 8's that flooded… flooded. Then Mazda issued a service bulletin and owners who complained of flooding were given larger batteries and spark plugs. The larger batteries and plugs pretty much "solved" the 'flooding problem" (and I use that phrase loosely, since the mere act of saying "flooding problem" makes it sound way bigger than it was or is.) Pretty much any recent 8 won't flood as long as you remember to let it warm up before turning it off. And with the larger battery and new plugs, even doing that won't guarantee it will flood. I've had mine since February and have never flooded it. Most 8 owners have never flooded it. Driving a mile and a half to work and turning it off will NOT flood the engine—that's more than enough time/distance to keep that from happening. Consumer Reports loved the 8 when it came out but had reservations about its reliability due to flooding issues. The very next year (last year) they revised their rating upward and now consider the 8 to be a reliable car.
Anyone who tells you you're crazy to consider buying one simply doesn't know what they're talking about.
Anyone who tells you you're crazy to consider buying one simply doesn't know what they're talking about.
08-26-2006, 11:21 PM
#903
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Dilemma......
Thank you for the info New Yorker. I do feel a little bit better about what you had to say. Do you think I would be okay with such a short commute?
Side note....I just checked my local Mazda dealer's website and the dealership is advertising $6,500 off MSRP. I think the backlash is already starting.
Side note....I just checked my local Mazda dealer's website and the dealership is advertising $6,500 off MSRP. I think the backlash is already starting.
08-26-2006, 11:34 PM
#904
Administrator
Originally Posted by Ryan13b
My source said no internal design change. Only the level the OMP gives.
i believe that in the 3 years the car has been available that
Mazda has continued to pursue advancements in rotary engine technology and found improvements that can be made. I believe that Mazda has incorporated these cchanges into production models and if possible will incorporate these changes into the reman engines.
08-26-2006, 11:40 PM
#905
Super Moderator
Originally Posted by New Yorker
1) The Renesis has a known design and/or manufacturing problem that causes compression failure.
No, it's my understanding that the Renesis DOES NOT have a design/manufacturing problem. But earlier ECU programming can result in engine problems in a few particular situations and climates. If the ECU is programmed with the new flash, the engine should be fine in all situations and climates.
2) Mazda is going to run some tests to see if motors are prone to this type of compression failure.
The Renesis is not "prone" to compression failure. Mazda dealers will be performing a vaccum test to see if the engine has suffered any damage as a result of earlier, not-quite-perfected ECU programming.
3) Mazda is going to replace such motors with new or remanufactured ones.
Yes. Though it's my understanding that remanufactured engines are the equivalent of new. (The way you phrase it, it sounds like remanufactured engines are somehow less desirable—like comparing a "used" car to a "new" one. I don't believe that's, in fact, true.)
4) These new or remanufactured motors will somehow have a design and/or manufacturing change that will prevent such failures in the future (???).
No! I don't believe the Renesis engine, itself, has "changed" since it was introduced. The only changes have been the various ECU flashes. Again, the problem IS NOT the engine—rather, it's figuring out the right ECU programming for all situations/climates. Prior ECU flashes have resulted in engine damage in a small number of situations/climates.
5) Mazda is tacking on an additional one year/10,000 mile warranty on the powertrain as some sort of assurance to its "highly valued" customers.
It's an extension of the warranty to assuage fears of RX-8 owners who, due to news of engine failures and this recall, may suspect the longterm reliability of their engines. Yes, most car owners consider a warranty extension "some sort of assurance," as you put it. (In fact, all warrantees are "some sort of assurance." There's really no mystery or vagueness about it. It's not "some sort" of assurance—it's assurance, plain and simple.)
Do you blame me for being highly skeptical of number 4 above?
Yes. If the problem is the ECU programming and not the engine—as I believe it is—then you have no reason for being "highly" skeptical, or even a little bit skeptical, for that matter. Mazda is a car company with a strong reputation for innovative engineering and a history of taking care of its customers. Mazda also has a good track record of correcting problems with their vehicles.
If you don't blame me, do you agree that number 5 is woefully inadequate?
Not at all. I think extending the warranty is a nice gesture that, to be honest, isn't really necessary. When 1999-2001 Miata engines were failing, many were replaced even when the cars were out of warranty.
No, it's my understanding that the Renesis DOES NOT have a design/manufacturing problem. But earlier ECU programming can result in engine problems in a few particular situations and climates. If the ECU is programmed with the new flash, the engine should be fine in all situations and climates.
2) Mazda is going to run some tests to see if motors are prone to this type of compression failure.
The Renesis is not "prone" to compression failure. Mazda dealers will be performing a vaccum test to see if the engine has suffered any damage as a result of earlier, not-quite-perfected ECU programming.
3) Mazda is going to replace such motors with new or remanufactured ones.
Yes. Though it's my understanding that remanufactured engines are the equivalent of new. (The way you phrase it, it sounds like remanufactured engines are somehow less desirable—like comparing a "used" car to a "new" one. I don't believe that's, in fact, true.)
4) These new or remanufactured motors will somehow have a design and/or manufacturing change that will prevent such failures in the future (???).
No! I don't believe the Renesis engine, itself, has "changed" since it was introduced. The only changes have been the various ECU flashes. Again, the problem IS NOT the engine—rather, it's figuring out the right ECU programming for all situations/climates. Prior ECU flashes have resulted in engine damage in a small number of situations/climates.
5) Mazda is tacking on an additional one year/10,000 mile warranty on the powertrain as some sort of assurance to its "highly valued" customers.
It's an extension of the warranty to assuage fears of RX-8 owners who, due to news of engine failures and this recall, may suspect the longterm reliability of their engines. Yes, most car owners consider a warranty extension "some sort of assurance," as you put it. (In fact, all warrantees are "some sort of assurance." There's really no mystery or vagueness about it. It's not "some sort" of assurance—it's assurance, plain and simple.)
Do you blame me for being highly skeptical of number 4 above?
Yes. If the problem is the ECU programming and not the engine—as I believe it is—then you have no reason for being "highly" skeptical, or even a little bit skeptical, for that matter. Mazda is a car company with a strong reputation for innovative engineering and a history of taking care of its customers. Mazda also has a good track record of correcting problems with their vehicles.
If you don't blame me, do you agree that number 5 is woefully inadequate?
Not at all. I think extending the warranty is a nice gesture that, to be honest, isn't really necessary. When 1999-2001 Miata engines were failing, many were replaced even when the cars were out of warranty.
Well said NEW YORKER!!
For my 2 cents worth...this is from experience being a Warranty claims officer for a dealer when R100, RX-2, RX-3 engine's were failing due to coolant leaking into rotor housings...Mazda then as now gave extended warranties for ALL engines, even when the car was out of warranty or changed ownership, for memory in the early 70's it was a 48 month unlimited kilometre warranty with the owner paying for the labour cost only...brand new parts were free and dealers would claim rebate as they would for their normal warranty policies....
IMO and from many years of wholesale and retail experience MAZDA do not walk away from their customers or product.....and this not only applies to rotaries, if the owner has had a good maintenance history when an issue occurs Mazda have a good will policy that is adjudicated by their field reps and will in many cases repair with no or little cost to the owner, generally consumables like oil or coolant are recovered by the dealer/customer owner agreement.
08-26-2006, 11:44 PM
#907
Originally Posted by mysql101
Of course it would have. The two are unrelated. Mazda didn't just spring up and decide to do a recall, it has to have been underway for many months to over a year.
yes,
that is correct.. and last time we saw each other in person i am sure you heard me mention this problem....
or at least you were in ear shot of it..
beers
08-27-2006, 12:00 AM
#910
Super Moderator
Originally Posted by Grizzly8
Mazda in Australia didnt have the mineral oil available , it became available only 7 months after the car was released .
Do you know if the recall is being conducted in Australia , or are they going to sweep it under the blanket as the sales here are only a drop in the ocean at 4300 units over 3 years .
Michael
Do you know if the recall is being conducted in Australia , or are they going to sweep it under the blanket as the sales here are only a drop in the ocean at 4300 units over 3 years .
Michael
Although the cynics might suggest otherwise, Mazda and Mazda Australia will not sweep anything under the carpet...they just don't operate like that... IF and I say if there is an issue you will be contacted or hear about it from members at www.RX8club.com.au.
I have used Castrol GTX-3 here which is a mineral based only oil and has a 10w40w spec...which is fine for our climate......
Generally we have a similar climates to the US apart from their freezing cold winter temps, so a 0 or 5 factor oil range really is not necessary, GTX-3 give you a higher hot climate temp at 40 where the recommendations by Mazda for Australia is a 30 factor.
Like many have said the RX-8's Metering OIL Pump (MOP) was not injecting sufficient volumes of engine oil into the combustion chambers for Apex,Side seal, Corner Seal lubrication...this has been rectified by the ECU Flash updates.
The issue of using Fully Synthetic oils according to reports have been one of the causes for excess carbon deposits on rotors which cause the "Marbles in a can sound" at higher RPM.
While this has ALWAYS been an issue for rotaries, even in the 70's, IMO synthetic oil burn appears to deposit (Stick to) rotors etc more than mineral base oils do.
I know that RG and other will not agree but I have been against there use since becoming a member, However, Royal Purple (Like RG uses) is probably the best synthetic oil...if you chose to use it......
BTW, I have no objections using good Synthetics OIls in "normal" 4,6 and 8 bangers.
08-27-2006, 12:22 AM
#911
Super Moderator
Originally Posted by Shaida
I was all set to buy a new RX8 last week. Got the loan approved, just needed to pick out the color. Doing a search on the Internet, I came across your great forum and learned about the flooding problems with the engine. I'm was planning on buying the car as an everyday car to go back and forth to work (only 1.5 miles from home). I spoke with 2 dealers about the flooding problem for short distances and they said they haven't had any problems reported to them.
So here's my dilemma. I absolutely love the car and there's no way I would want to buy anything else. Everyone is telling me that I'm crazy to even consider buying one. I guess I could lease it in order not to be responsible for it at the end of 2 years. But honestly, who at this point would want to buy a new RX8? I would think that the dealer would have to reduce the price in order to move these off the lot. I now know why they were willing to go $1,000 under invoice to sell me the car.
Is it possible that there aren't any problems in the SF Bay Area? Have you guys had problems when driving the car a short distance? At this point I'm really bummed out about all this!
So here's my dilemma. I absolutely love the car and there's no way I would want to buy anything else. Everyone is telling me that I'm crazy to even consider buying one. I guess I could lease it in order not to be responsible for it at the end of 2 years. But honestly, who at this point would want to buy a new RX8? I would think that the dealer would have to reduce the price in order to move these off the lot. I now know why they were willing to go $1,000 under invoice to sell me the car.
Is it possible that there aren't any problems in the SF Bay Area? Have you guys had problems when driving the car a short distance? At this point I'm really bummed out about all this!
Mi Mate...
Look, if you love the 8 like most of us do...then go out and buy it!...
The flooding issue is way over the top....IF you start up your 8 from cold and move it 6 feet and then immediately turn it off...you could, I repeat could have an issue from time to time, BUT, its a good Idea to let the car warm up, at least until you see the gauge needle move... again if you are driving a short distance make sure the engine has warmed up before you turn off...its really no big deal, with a warm engine give its a squirt on the pedal to about 4000RPM for about 15 secs to burn off excess fuel...before you switch OFF.
GO out and buy it and enjoy!
08-27-2006, 02:42 AM
#912
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um... i remember reading a thread about calling a specific number like 222 something yesterday, then we can find out if our car needs the recall?
think zoom posted it or something, but can't find it now.
is the thread closed?
should we call the number still? or are we sposed to just wait until mazda sends us a letter if it is required?
if we should still call, anyone still have the number???
(sorry if the number is in this thread, too lazy to look through 60 pages)
think zoom posted it or something, but can't find it now.
is the thread closed?
should we call the number still? or are we sposed to just wait until mazda sends us a letter if it is required?
if we should still call, anyone still have the number???
(sorry if the number is in this thread, too lazy to look through 60 pages)
08-27-2006, 07:30 AM
#913
1st of all--I would buy another RX8 right now---today. I think some of us on the forum that have been posting for a while forget that someone without experience with our car may read the posts. Maybe they get the wrong idea when they read it. Heck I have had "problems" with every car i have ever owned(about 34). This one is no differant. Besides us guys and girls here ALWAYS are trying to make things better--sometimes sucessful, sometimes not---but always trying.
Mazda and my dealership has always been right on with me--no problems. I would like to see Mazda go a little further with this. Maybe they have and I dont know it(internal mods on the replacements etc).
For those of us that remain--I do plan on exploring the electric water pump more--talking to Summit racing--and will speak with Mazcare(even though Charlie has reservations)
I like real time response to cooling it can offer and I really like the ability to continue cooling after you have turned the car off therefore eliminating the turn off heat soak problem. A better radiator is much more important to cooling than the water pump true but even a better radiator will not address the above issues. Anyone out there with an experience with the EWP. I know the flow rates are ok and the voltage draw is acceptable.
oldragger
Mazda and my dealership has always been right on with me--no problems. I would like to see Mazda go a little further with this. Maybe they have and I dont know it(internal mods on the replacements etc).
For those of us that remain--I do plan on exploring the electric water pump more--talking to Summit racing--and will speak with Mazcare(even though Charlie has reservations
)I like real time response to cooling it can offer and I really like the ability to continue cooling after you have turned the car off therefore eliminating the turn off heat soak problem. A better radiator is much more important to cooling than the water pump true but even a better radiator will not address the above issues. Anyone out there with an experience with the EWP. I know the flow rates are ok and the voltage draw is acceptable.
oldragger
08-27-2006, 08:57 AM
#914
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Hey OD, good morning! I have a KOYO rad on order to test on my old mule of an 8
so we'll have some data to look at in that area soon. Also, have you checked w/Meziere? They make an elec. water pump for the earlier rotaries, maybe you can get them interested in your idea. It was proven way back that the stock impeller on the 8 pump cavitates much earlier than any other model before it. The problem was found while testing the Renesis for a watercraft application and I think it was at Rousch of all places but don't quote me on that. Either way, the cav problem is a bitch.
Chas
For those of us that remain--I do plan on exploring the electric water pump more--talking to Summit racing--and will speak with Mazcare(even though Charlie has reservations)
I like real time response to cooling it can offer and I really like the ability to continue cooling after you have turned the car off therefore eliminating the turn off heat soak problem. A better radiator is much more important to cooling than the water pump true but even a better radiator will not address the above issues. Anyone out there with an experience with the EWP. I know the flow rates are ok and the voltage draw is acceptable.
oldragger[/QUOTE]
so we'll have some data to look at in that area soon. Also, have you checked w/Meziere? They make an elec. water pump for the earlier rotaries, maybe you can get them interested in your idea. It was proven way back that the stock impeller on the 8 pump cavitates much earlier than any other model before it. The problem was found while testing the Renesis for a watercraft application and I think it was at Rousch of all places but don't quote me on that. Either way, the cav problem is a bitch.
Chas
For those of us that remain--I do plan on exploring the electric water pump more--talking to Summit racing--and will speak with Mazcare(even though Charlie has reservations
)I like real time response to cooling it can offer and I really like the ability to continue cooling after you have turned the car off therefore eliminating the turn off heat soak problem. A better radiator is much more important to cooling than the water pump true but even a better radiator will not address the above issues. Anyone out there with an experience with the EWP. I know the flow rates are ok and the voltage draw is acceptable.
oldragger[/QUOTE]
08-27-2006, 09:29 AM
#915
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Originally Posted by Shaida
I was all set to buy a new RX8 last week. Got the loan approved, just needed to pick out the color. Doing a search on the Internet, I came across your great forum and learned about the flooding problems with the engine. I'm was planning on buying the car as an everyday car to go back and forth to work (only 1.5 miles from home). I spoke with 2 dealers about the flooding problem for short distances and they said they haven't had any problems reported to them.
So here's my dilemma. I absolutely love the car and there's no way I would want to buy anything else. Everyone is telling me that I'm crazy to even consider buying one. I guess I could lease it in order not to be responsible for it at the end of 2 years. But honestly, who at this point would want to buy a new RX8? I would think that the dealer would have to reduce the price in order to move these off the lot. I now know why they were willing to go $1,000 under invoice to sell me the car.
Is it possible that there aren't any problems in the SF Bay Area? Have you guys had problems when driving the car a short distance? At this point I'm really bummed out about all this!
So here's my dilemma. I absolutely love the car and there's no way I would want to buy anything else. Everyone is telling me that I'm crazy to even consider buying one. I guess I could lease it in order not to be responsible for it at the end of 2 years. But honestly, who at this point would want to buy a new RX8? I would think that the dealer would have to reduce the price in order to move these off the lot. I now know why they were willing to go $1,000 under invoice to sell me the car.
Is it possible that there aren't any problems in the SF Bay Area? Have you guys had problems when driving the car a short distance? At this point I'm really bummed out about all this!
08-27-2006, 09:38 AM
#916
Mmmmm... Rotary Donut
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Originally Posted by Nemesis8
I second that !
All sports cars should have a real working oil pressure gauge, and a rotary even more so. That's one of the projects that I just keep putting on the side burner...
08-27-2006, 10:22 AM
#919
from that, you can actually perform the same test they're going to do on your car to see if it has the problem.
Perform test drive lasting at least 20 minutes following these guidelines:
- Drive vehicle on city streets at speeds below 45 mph.
- Air conditioning and fan speed on max.
- Accelerate at very light throttle keeping shift points below 3000 RPM.
After 10 minutes stop vehicle in a parking lot, M/T in neutral and A/T in drive for one minute, and monitor
engine RPM using the DATALOGGER PID.
- At the 20 minute mark, stop the vehicle in a parking lot, M/T in neutral and A/T in drive for one minute,
and monitor engine RPM using the DATALOGGER PID.
- Safely accelerate the vehicle at wide open throttle (M/T shift at 8000 RPM) to the legal speed limit.
2. Did you experience any of the following during the test drive?
• Engine stall
• The vehicle has a severe lack of power
• The RPM PID drops to below 700 RPM during the one minute stops.
NO – Proceed to REPAIR PROCEDURE “D” PCM REPROGRAMMING
YES – Engine replacement required, complete ENGINE REPLACEMENT PARTS ORDER FORM and refer to PARTS INFORMATION section for engine ordering process.
- Drive vehicle on city streets at speeds below 45 mph.
- Air conditioning and fan speed on max.
- Accelerate at very light throttle keeping shift points below 3000 RPM.
After 10 minutes stop vehicle in a parking lot, M/T in neutral and A/T in drive for one minute, and monitor
engine RPM using the DATALOGGER PID.
- At the 20 minute mark, stop the vehicle in a parking lot, M/T in neutral and A/T in drive for one minute,
and monitor engine RPM using the DATALOGGER PID.
- Safely accelerate the vehicle at wide open throttle (M/T shift at 8000 RPM) to the legal speed limit.
2. Did you experience any of the following during the test drive?
• Engine stall
• The vehicle has a severe lack of power
• The RPM PID drops to below 700 RPM during the one minute stops.
NO – Proceed to REPAIR PROCEDURE “D” PCM REPROGRAMMING
YES – Engine replacement required, complete ENGINE REPLACEMENT PARTS ORDER FORM and refer to PARTS INFORMATION section for engine ordering process.
08-27-2006, 10:24 AM
#920
Administrator
and flash's do move one level higher
Year Transmission (Emission Type) New PCM Calibration Part Number File Name
2004 A/T (All) N3Z1-18-881U SW-N3Z1EU000
2004 M/T (All) N3Z2-18-881T SW-N3Z2ET000
2005 A/T (Fed) N3ZA-18-881H SW-N3ZAEH000
2005 M/T (Fed) N3ZB-18-881G SW-N3ZBEG000
2005 A/T (Cal) N3ZC-18-881H SW-N3ZCEH000
2005 M/T (Cal) N3ZD-18-881G SW-N3ZDEG000
2006 A/T (Fed) N3M6-18-881F SW-N3M6EF000
2006 M/T (Fed) N3M5-18-881F SW-N3M5EF000
2006 A/T (Cal) N3M2-18-881F SW-N3M2EF000
2006 M/T (Cal) N3M1-18-881F SW-N3M1EF000
Year Transmission (Emission Type) New PCM Calibration Part Number File Name
2004 A/T (All) N3Z1-18-881U SW-N3Z1EU000
2004 M/T (All) N3Z2-18-881T SW-N3Z2ET000
2005 A/T (Fed) N3ZA-18-881H SW-N3ZAEH000
2005 M/T (Fed) N3ZB-18-881G SW-N3ZBEG000
2005 A/T (Cal) N3ZC-18-881H SW-N3ZCEH000
2005 M/T (Cal) N3ZD-18-881G SW-N3ZDEG000
2006 A/T (Fed) N3M6-18-881F SW-N3M6EF000
2006 M/T (Fed) N3M5-18-881F SW-N3M5EF000
2006 A/T (Cal) N3M2-18-881F SW-N3M2EF000
2006 M/T (Cal) N3M1-18-881F SW-N3M1EF000
08-27-2006, 10:26 AM
#921
zoom, since I know I don't have the power loss issue - do you think it's worthwhile getting the new pcm flash? I had the pcm reflashed about a month ago. I thought that one was to increase the oil flow... does this one increase it even more?
08-27-2006, 10:28 AM
#922
Administrator
dont know now the difference - id get teh recall flash. in fact i will. im on S for liek 2 weeks now and will get t. note in the pdf it states that in CARB satates you WILL HAVE TO GET IT. toi renew your registration
08-27-2006, 10:58 AM
#924
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"There's no recall, half the time those sites are full of it...." bwahahaha...
Now to think of a way of just dropping this in their laps. Might wait till Mazda makes a offical annocement (hoping tomorrow they will?) on their site or somewhere. Though part of me worried since they'll be driving my car for that long since my mileage is crap and gas price's are still up there. That 20min drive for me is/could be 1/8 tank.
Thanks Zoom for the info and keeping us up to date.
08-27-2006, 11:02 AM
#925
Administrator
dont make mehurt you. that is as official as it gets- Mazda execs have confirmed it to the news folk. and the dealers now have the documents. it doesnt get any more official.