FlyingLeggs

This whole thing is retarded. Since when did an RX8 have "231 at the crank and 154" at the wheels anyway. This guy is full of crap and I strongly advise that everyone reading this should stop wasting ther time here.

Mickeyblue

spoke to the dealer at MPH05 (top gears car show) asked how it was done and all i was told was its the air intake and ECU...said 'cant wait to see it' gave my details so now i just have to wait..... althought they did say it was a UK Tuner so it could be the PPP that has been rumoured

at £30k with full body kit and what looked the be highly speced its not a bad price BUT i still wont believe the 300bhp (at the fly) til i see it!!

was tempted by the MS offical kit £4000 fitted and painted so not top bad!

tuj

I have seen dynos from 170 - 205 rwhp on stock RX-8's, with most cars around 185 or so. That's anywhere from a 14 to 28% loss through the drive-line. The other thing is that drive-line losses are per rpm, so high-rev'ing engines will suffer more.

Finally, while some have claimed that the Renesis can flow no more NA, I haven't seen any proof of that. If torque was to stay constant (granted a big IF), you could always rev to 11.5k which would get you 302 crank hp.

tuj

Does anyone know how much area the intake ports have in total? My calculation is that the total surface area should at least be between 4966 and 5829 sq mm per rotor.

spectre26

This is the latest as of yesterday (28th Nov) The post to come is lifted straight out of a UK based forum I post on as i cant b bothered to re-type or edit it. You'll understand y when u c the size of the post.

So here goes...

K, this is a long one but i hope it will answer some of the questions u may have had. Please bear with me on this.

I popped down to T W Whites last evening to return a survey and sort out a few minor things and inadvertantly got myself a meeting with Neil White himself regarding the 300bhp RX8 hes putting out. Not being a professional reporter i'll try to convey the meeting we had as best i can in this post.

Biggest Vibe i got off Neil was the almost desperation he has to convince all of u that it is indeed a 300bhp machine. Just goes to show he is concerned with the opinion of all of u out there. He stated the basically logical fact that it would be maddness to spend 8mths of working (and money) on a car and then to announce to people that he was making a 300bhp car only not to produce. That would really be setting yourself up for a fall, not to mention tarnishing your reputation. Which led onto a piece of good news. Which is the car will be arriving as a completed product at Whites by the end of this week. So the day or reckoning is near.

He has even gone thru the trouble of not only getting a dyno graph printed out from the place he is getting it tuned at (Rampage) but he is also getting an independant party to dyno the car. That hopefully will convince all but the most skeptical of u out there. I believe Neil mentioned that the indi guys are based in oxford and are the same people who did the tuned EVO (Fq400... i think... btw i am crap in the memory dept)

I asked him about the apparent miscalculation with regard to the drivetrain losses derived from the figures he previously quoted us. I believe some of u worked it out to be an unbelieveable 30% drivetrain loss. He said the figures were what the tuning company quoted him and the reason for it was because of the type of dyno used. I think, but dont take it as gospel as my memory sux, he said it was a mustang dyno. And that they were characteristic of giving readouts which equated to high drivetrain losses. I'm not a dyno professor so i am leaving the floor open to those of u who r in the know on dynos. I did try to advise him that if he was worried about people not believing the independant dyno people he has employed, that sending the car to Re-worx for an independant dyno run would probably silence all but the most hardcore of nay-sayers on this forum.

Neil said that a majority of the aftermarket kit is HKS. Don't know if he wanted me to mention it or not but he never said other wise... so... The exhaust & intake is HKS. As for the rest, the brakes and springs, he didn't have it to hand so he couldnt confirm. But what he did mention on the V-pro power upgrade was that it is a piggy back unit, not a stand alone, so i would rate Jame's find on the HKS v-pro as a very educated guess, especially since he did say that he wanted to go for HKS for most of the aftermarket stuff as they were a reputable international aftermarket manufacturer. Thou i must add he never mentioned who the manufacturer of the piggy back unit was.

He did add that he did look at just about all the aftermarket parts out there for the 8. He said that he had travelled to a load of countries, from USA to Japan and quite a few other places insearch of the right parts. Key considerations for him were as u would expect, 1st, does the part allow the ammount of improvement required to being the RX8 up to level? and 2nd, is it affordable enough for the buying public to shell out cash to buy the car with those parts on? I have a suspicion that he had advisors on the topic as Neil did add that he isn't a very technically minded guy. He said that he met some1 at the MPH show, some rotor nut (was it one of u??) who began firing questions and info at him, which which throughly baffled and impressed him. After mentioning this he said it goes to show that some of the guys out there are very clued up. Also suspect that he had an advisior on the parts selection front because he hadn't really heard of JIC when i asked if they considered their exhaust unit, yes... JIC fan here . Seeing as JIC are the tuners for the D1GP RX8 i dont really see them as a low profile aftermarket company.

Neil also mentioned to me who the test driver for this 300bhp RX8 is. Thou he did add that he didn't want me disclosing the identity. But I suppose i can add that whoever it is, is a pretty hi-profile driver and is not unfimilar with rx8s. The car has undergone around 6000 miles of testing so far(car was from new) A portion of the miles accumilated by Neil himself. The rest divided between the tuning house and the test driver. Neil's aim with this car is not just to hit the 300bhp mark but also to do it with reliability in mind He stressed that he was not up for producing a 300bhp car for sale only for it to die a few mths or weeks down the line. He mentioned that just about all the info he has released so far on the 300bhp RX8 is thru this forum as he will not go to press on the car till the 100% finished product lands on his doorstep later this week. Thou again adding that this is not an indication that the 300bhp RX8 does not exist. Neil is practically paranoid of people not believeing him... to be honest at one point in our conversation i did find it funny when he was showing me the people he was calling on his mobile just incase i doubted him lol

I asked about the warrenty issue, as i believe some of u out there have. Neil said the warrenty would not be a Mazda warrenty but instead would be a T W Whites approved warrenty. So any porblems would be solved thru them and not Mazda.

Next question was one that many have asked. What will be the MPG of the car? Neil's reply was that he would not be getting into publishing or even working out figures for this as it would involve driving the car for a month or so wholely on city roads then a month on motorways, then a month of combination. And all that time and money spent to realise those figures, plus the added pains involved in making those figures official. Its not something he really wants to be dragged into. Safe to say he added that fuel burn wouldn't be as good as a stock RX8 but hey... like any of u out there were really expecting a more fuel efficient RX8.

I did mention that one theroy some people on the forum had come to, was that the 300bhp could be achieved N/A if the redline was raised. He did say that it can be raised to 11k and pretty much switched subjects at that. So in all honesty that avenue is still open to debate. Guess i'll have to wait a lil longer to get the 100% answer.

I will be following up the latest when the car arrives in the "flesh", but as i might well be out the country on holidays next week i might miss the chance But rest assured I will do my best to keep u updated.He did offer me the opertunity to test drive the car round the local roads and twisties provided i promised not to stack it I just hope that the offer will still stand when i am back from my hols. Fingers crossed.

Apologies again, I know its a long ol post but finally thanks to Neil White for his time and a thanks going out to John Crook for making it possiable

Also thanks to all of u who have had the patience to finish reading the post


And so ends my lifted post.

Thanks going out to all u RX8club readers who have bothered to read thru to the end.

To answer a few questions/comments on the recient posts on this thread. He added the stock 8 he dynos which had 150 at the wheels was an oddity as he himself expected 175 or there abouts. So that was just one of those things in life.

And as yet there are no plans at all to sell this car anywhere other than at a T W Whites dealership. So... UK only unfortuneately.

s13lover

So he's claiming 300bhp with an intake, exhaust, and an ecu?

rotary crazy

^^maybe porting and a 11,000+ rpm red line^^^

is it bhp or rwhp? 300 - 15% drive train lost 249 rwhp?

Red Devil

That's gotta be bhp. Either way, it will be interesting to see the details and final specs of the finished product.

Deslock

The RX-EVOLVE concept targeted 276 HP at 9000 RPM (making 166 ftlbs at 8000 RPM). If they were able to increase torque output a bit and extend redline, perhaps they could get above that, though 300 seems like quite a stretch. We'll know soon enough, one way or the other.

FYI, here's the UK forum and thread that he's referring to:
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forum...ad.php?t=18627

QBallz

I don't think all the current bolt on combined (intake, catback, highflow cat, headers, pullies) + ECU tune could give you 70hp at the crank. Maybe run 100+Oct with aggressive timing?

At the same time I hope they pull it off because I would like to copy it 300hp NA would be sweet.

druck

I spoke to Neil at MPH'05 too, well first I listened for a good 10 minutes for him to get his speil over, then asked a few questions, particuarly "how have you managed to acheive this power increase in six months when somw very talented tuners in the US and Australia have had the car for a year longer than the UK, and are not claiming such impressive figures, neither are the Italians who had assistance from Mazda to produce a race tuned ECU". I'm afraid I wasn't impressed by his answers or the way he answered, he was full of salesman bluster and very defensive, asking "if I was calling Rampage liars" while waving round his single dyno plot showing a 60bhp difference. I tried to explain that having worked for the Recardo group (on engine dynos, but a bit of chaissis after we bought Brush) I knew some of the issues involved, but he wasn't having any of it, going off about how they'd managed 400bhp with the EVO, and finished off with "if people keep doubting the figures, I wont bother at all".

Now I've no doubt that Rampage have acheived a useful if not significant increase in power over stock, but for TW Whites to start out with a figure which defies credibility, using terminology such as "the electrics box" and insisting that anyone with doubts doesn't know what they are talking about, isn't the way to sell it. This version of the RX-8 is going to be mainly bought by enthusiasts, or on the recommendation of enthusists, and appearing to be full of BS isn't going to convince us. They should have only said they are working on a higher powered special edition, and wait until it is complete and show us the figures they have actually acheived - there will be plenty able to independantly verify it at that point.

Cheers
---Dave

spectre26

A reply to a few of the questions & comments out there.

The 300hp figure is at the fly wheel so Neil said we would be looking at 260 or so at the wheels.

He also mentioned that it will only run on a min octane of 98, higher the better... guess that points to the aggressive timing route...

I dont believe porting the engine had been done judging from the conversation i had with him. He indicated that a majority of the hp increase would be from the piggy back.

Neil also mentioned that dispite the 300 at the fly, torque levels were still lower than he would have liked... so i wouldnt expect the finished product to pull anywhere near as hard as say an EVO or WRX.

And finally yeah the guy is a sales man but u gotta give him kudos for trying. I mean very few people in his shoes have even bothered. Besides the day of reckoning is near. So soon we all shold know what the real deal is.

Either way i dont believe there is any1 who deep down doesn't wanna see him actually pull it off. I mean come on, 300 at the fly, 260 at the wheels... that is an off the shelf 8 worth waiting for

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Horsepower figures aside, an 11,000 rpm redline which delivers stock-ish torque levels, when combined with lower gearing (i.e., higher numerical final drive ratio) would yield a noticeable improvement in acceleration. But yeah your mileage would suffer, unless you also installed a taller 6th gear.

Rasputin

That's how we always understood it!

It probably will be the maximum octane too, as there isn't anything better than 99 available on the European market (note for US guys : we count in RON).
Considering thre base calibration is for 95 RON, I would not expect a noticeable improvement with spark timing modifications.


That's were people will smile. He previously mentionned ("Originally we made a rich fuel map and adjusted to suit") that they started to make a richer fuel map, whereas we all know now that one of the main issues with the Renesis (and most petrol engines) is the overfuelling for catalyst protection that makes the engine run well beyond LBT (optimum fuelling for power).
This lack of porting also totally refute the possibility of running at higher engine speed (another way to make more power), as the engine will choke beyond 9000 rpm.

Yes let's wait for the post-mortem!

Fabrice

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

I'm sorry, but this is laughable. Talk about internet fables! How is this guy planning on getting 30 to 40 more horses than the race teams are getting? They are using the best management money can buy. They can run maps that can put fuel and ignition anywhere they want it. Please pay no further attention to this nonsense.
I'm looking forward to those who care to reply.
Paul.

tuj

Everyone keeps saying this, yet I'm still waiting to see any proof or hear a justification. What is to keep the engine from making the same amount of torque at 9k up through 11k? Is the torque fall-off so dramatic that there is no hp to be gained by rev'ing it higher? Everyone says the engine won't flow any more above 9k, but I would ask, will it flow any less per revolution? If not, the engine is still ingesting the same amount of air, and should produce the same amount of torque, yielding higher hp at higher revs. I understand the need to port to support gains in torque at high rpms, but I fail to see why the engine is so tragically choked above 9k

rotary crazy

thats the problem to keep making power above 9000 the engine needs to keep increasing the amount of air it takes in not to take in the same amount, my opinion is that to make power above 9000 you need to port the engine.

Rasputin

In a piston engine, passage of the intake air trhough the poppet valve usually is the most important flow restriction in the intake and exhaust.
At a flow called the critical flow, the flow becomes sonic and the volumetric efficiency is dramatically reduced. It chokes.
When the Mach number (defined as the ratio between mean inlet flow velocity and the sound speed) reaches 0.5 - 0.6, the volumetric efficiency decreases rapidly.
This phenomenon is also applicable to Wankel engines (see SAE 912479 A Performance Simulation for SI Wankel Rotary Engine).
And as the Renesis needed an extra port / rotor (increased intake area => reduces inlet flow velocity => reduction of Mach No) to efficiently rev from 7500 to 9000 rpm, one can estimate the engine cannot rev much higher than 9000 rpm without dramatically reducing VolEff.

Fabrice

MrJynx

that's a very odd comment.. If he already put the money/time into the project, obviously people doubting the figures means nothing!!@ However that comment implies he may not be able to deliver because if I knew i could produce a 300hp RX8 I wouldn't give a **** if everybody doubted me and wouldn't make comments on backing off the project because my feelings were hurt..

it does sound strange though.....


MrJynx

Red Devil

^^^
Good point.

Regardless of what they achieve, they should disclose the true figures and let the public decide whether it's worth the extra money.

spectre26

From my hour or so long talk with him the main vibe i got off him is that what the rotary community (or any1 else) out there thinks of his efforts means alot to him. And he takes it very personally when people doubt his project. I'm sure if u put yourself in his shoes and some1 "insults" your pet project you would b able to see where his reply came from.

But speaking from a personal point of view, my opinion is the same as yours MrJynx.

Vaillant

I think he should call it the 300 hp goal RX-8, rather than the 300 hp RX-8. Shoot, even it ends up at 290 hp, that'll be impressive.

Senna

^^^ Excellent point!

rotary crazy

I just dont understand why in japan and europe people are flashing the ecu and in the us we have to buy a $2000 piggy back ecu? they know something we dont?

I think it may be posible to get 235 rwhp more than that Ill be shock, but If its posible I will be really happy.

tuj

That was exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks!