Uselessness of Hydrogen RX-8
 

As I sit here at 3AM writing another stupid paper on global warming it occured to me that the hydrogen/gas Rx-8 would be totally useless to me. One could switch to hydrogen and get a little over 100hp when just gently putting around town, cutting down emissions to 0. This would great, except for the fact that, when they heck would I want to use it? I don't run to the store that's 5 minutes away to get milk and take 30 to do it because I want to cruise around with 110hp. I bought this car because it's fun as hell to drive, and even if I was so enviromentally minded to want to reduce my emissions, I think I'd have a hard time giving my smooth 238hp, even when tooling around town. Am I totally off here, or do you think alot of people who buy this car wouldn't want to switch to a mode where they get less power than a Civic?

Idk... I could be off... maybe it's just that it's 3AM... maybe it's that this is the 5th paper I've done on global warming for this class and yet still I AM LEARNING NOTHING FROM IT...:mad:

I hate this stupid gen ed course...

You should take some geology classes and then go back and write a paper on global warming. It would make the environmentalists mad.

Phhh... Global Warming. What about all the extra water (Global Flooding) we'll be making from these H powered cars? :D

FS

Instead of hydrogen, a CNG conversion would be cool. Those can run on both gasoline and natural gas as well. Could such a conversion work with the rotary?
Trouble is, filling the car up with CNG would be an issue.
Where do those buses and taxis fill up that run on CNG?

Until we are able to develop new processes for formulating hydrogen fuel, hydrogen has no future. The vehicle itself may have zero emissions, but it takes far more energy to produce the hydrogen than the power you get out of it. It's all about well to wheel numbers.

you probably havent learned anything because global warming doesn't exist to the point they said it does. It's just another conspiracy to get us to buy more products and help the economy, and other things.

I'm actually taking geology next semester, RG. :D

But seriously, I know hydrogen as a fuel source is just not viable given the existing extraction processes, but putting that aside, even if it was viable, I personally still wouldn't use the pollution free mode if it's going to make my driving experience less exciting. If I wanted to drive slow, I could have spent the same money on a more luxurious car with less performance. I bought the 8 because it makes driving my little brother to his friends house, or getting milk from the store into something fun.

And yes, I am skeptical of global warming. Consider this, all these environmental lobbying firms that do research and come out with reports warning of the danger of global warming can never be objective in their analysis. If a global warming focused environmental organization studied the phenomenon objectively and found evidence that it's just a natural cycle, well then they have proven their whole organization to be useless. So of course their research will suggest impending doom, because if it didn't, what reason would they have to get paid to whine in front of congress? They have just as much an interest to prove the existence of global warming as a smog producing company does to disprove it; they need to protect their jobs and their livelihood. *sigh * All studying poli sci teaches you is that the world is filled with nothing but self-motivated liars… it’s depressing… I hate my major…

(PS it’s 6 AM, sorry for typos or errors in grammar…)

I thought that car was going to also include some type of F/I? Wouldn't that help it get more than 110hp when you switch to hydrogen mode? Besides - the hydrogen mode is probably designed for long drives on the highway after you get the car past 60 - 70, not for city driving.

Yeah, if it could work on just highway mode that might be interesting. But who cares about highway if you lose your trunk space with a huge hydrogen tank. I'm with TheColonel, 110HP = I need a new car.

The RX8 is a sports car so if they could stick an EMA (electric motor assist) in to help fuel economy while keeping performance, then I"m all for it. But anything that rapes the car of half it's HP is a dead plan to me.

Since the car only gets 2 mpg on Hydrogen, I wouldn't worry about the HP loss -- you'll have to switch back to hydrocarbons after a few miles anyway.

From what I undersrtand the rotory can run on any kind of fuel including diesel. A different ECU and exhaust would be required to do so. A diesel rotory would get better economy but still pollute. The rotory is a vary versatile engine with alot of enviromental potential and aplication.

^^haha seriously...just use ethanol or methanol;)

....would you buy a rotary/hydrogen powered version of a Prius -made by Mazda? You know, small wheels, tires, light, with cargo space and a high-gadgetery level?

you guys should check out http://www.unitednuclear.com/h2.htm

There goes the trunk!

Here was a Nitrous bottle that exploded in a car. It was most likely user error but with Hydrogen tanks pressurized to this level, who's to say it won't be easy to mess up and have this happen? This is what has the possibility of happening should something go wrong. Imagine if he had been in the car when this happened. It's downright scary. I still support Ethanol. It's less flammable and does not need to be stored under pressure.

http://www.saturnspeed.com/nitrousexplosion.htm

And when/if the hydrogen bottle goes, the smallest little spark would take the house with it. :p

you can't use compressed hydrogen people you'd get about 5 miles with a tank compressed to 1200 psi ( like a typical suba tank ). Liquid hydrogen might work better, but hydrazine ( what the space shuttle uses for thrusters ) is the only way to go.

read the link I posted above..

Of course the current least expensive way to get hydrogen is ... processing natural gas! :)

I think if we really wanted (ie when gasoline goes to $15/Liter or something insane), we will find more efficient ways of extracting electricity. In fact, processing of petroleum in oil sands (currently not profitable) will become more popular as the cost of gasoline goes up.

My personal feeling is to go nuclear! But then you get all the zealots going nuts over terrorists, hazzardous wastes, etc. Anyways, once we get that sweet sweet nuclear spawned electricity ... we can get our hydrogen! By then we'll have the gas/hydrogen/methanol/natural gas/diesel/electric hybrid rx8

Oh and global warming? A volcano explosion emits tonnes and tonnes of CO2 and other such gases that potentially dwarf that from us ... I don't see wackos trying to plug up volcanos.

Carbon fiber compression tanks that would be used for hydrogen are much more durable then the car, in fact, niegh indrestructable.

Well consider this, when fuel injection was taking place and harder emissions standards killed power in big v-8's (there was a time that a mustang v-8 had 150hp) and the detriot auto manufacterers were killed by the japanese cars it took them a while to get the tuning right.

Now, what is argueabley the most important thing with rotary cars? tuning. How new is hyrdogen? Very new. Give it some time and it will come around if it is in fact going to be monarterily useful.

After looking at the change in weather in my own region, I am starting to buy in to the whole idea of Global warming. People hear about 1.5 degrees global rise in temperature and go big deal, now this is a GLOBAL rise in temp, meaning the overall temperature everywhere is growing up. I agree that to some degree it could be science mixing with politic's but I don't beleive that is all environmental research. We need to be careful all the same and shouldn't completely tune out warnings such as this, after all, we have no precedence for a massive population which inculdes self-destructive technology and a tendency to put ones own well being ahead of the collective's.

No RX-TX, I wouldn't buy it... Again, I enjoy driving...

Also, with that united nuclear system... what happens when a Mack truck slams your Corvette from behind at a stoplight? I'd be too afraid of those things going Hindenburg on me... (not that the 16 wheeler wouldn't be likely to kill you anyway...)

I understand that but....it would make more sense than trying to move a 3000lbs 'sporty' car around, wouldn't it?

I recently read an article in a car magazine (I think it was Car and Driver, but I've packed the magazine up and can't currently find it. If I find it I'll post some more info) about an experimental technology being developed in a university.

It consists of putting a small converter under the hood of the vehicle (purportedly the size of a 2 liter bottle) that draws a small portion of gasoline from the fuel system and subjects it to a very high voltage arc that supposedly releases the Hydrogen stored up in the gasoline. The Hydrogen is then added to the intake tract and effectively raises the octane rating several points (the magazine claimed a higher "effective octane rating than race gas"). I guess the system has been proven reliable and relatively safe and is currently being reviewed by many car manufacturers for potential viability in commercial applications. The articla also stated that the system creates a drag on the engine (presumably from electrical draw) of about 5 hp, but that the potential gains in fuel economy and power are enormous. Think extremely high compression without the detonation.

I know it's sort of off-topic, but i thought you guys might be interested.

lol they dont intend the 110hp 0 emissions feature for city driving, its for highway driving obviously. also i think that would be pretty cool to have a hydrogen powered 8, as long as it could be modded and such relatively normally compared to other rotaries, because it would stink to be stuck with its stock HP as long as you have the car.

From what I remember, The tank fills the boot and you only get 110 miles out of it.

This is getting off topic but 80% of the global warming in the 20th century was between 1900-1920. We've been on the same warming trend since the last ice age. It just hasn't stopped and reversed yet. Don't let the environmentalists let you believe it's our fault. The planet has warmed and cooled on it's own dozens of times in history without the aid of industrialization.

Totally agree with rotarygod. And it's not really off topic because that was the start of this whole thing was talkign about the enviroment. Global warming caused by industry is a myth and cannot be proven statistically. We are on the same warming trend the the earth has been doing forever. The malignant narcissists out there that have problems think everything happens because of them when in truth it dosen't. (that's my soap box)

People talk about flooding because the ice-caps are melting is rediculous. Let's go back to your basic elementary science class. Take a half-full glass of water and add three icecubes. Mark a line on the glass at the level of the water. Wait for the ice to melt and then come back, where is your water line? It's at the same level. You know why? BECAUSE THE ICE HAD ALREADY DISPLACED THE WATER IN THE FIRST PLACE! So ice-caps melting isn't going to change the water level one inch because it is already displacing the water. This has been your science lesson for today. I real one, and not just some "hypothetical theory".

this whole thread was started with the statement "uselessness of the hydrogen rx-8". so the whole premise of the thread is wrong. because the car is not useless in the least. it is driving on the roads right now. approved by the japanese government as well as fueling station also approved. the data they are collecting will only help them make it better stronger faster. remeber that it also has that "electric turbo" so the can use it to better that technology as well. so it is fulfilling its roll as a concept/design study by furthuring the knowledge of the engineers thru testing. that is its purpose after all. that seems entirely USEFUL to me.

as for the water levels- the ice they are worried about is sitting on land- when it melts it will raise ocean levels. also as the oceans warm the expand raising the levels.

Today's Geography lesson: Antarctica is a continent. It is not floating ice.

^thats what I said ^^:D

Read Michael Chritons book "state of fear". The whole global warming theory is BS. He exposes it through this thriller. Billions and billions of enviromentalist's $$$$ are dependant on peoples belief in it. There just is'nt any real proof that global warming is happening and many scientists agree. Heat generated climate changes can happen in heavily populated areas and will grow as our world becomes more populated.

As far as hydrogen fuel is concerned, it's the fuel of the future. Scientist will learn how to produce it cheaply and then watch it take off. Goodby OPEC. our governments would'nt be investing so heavily in hydrogen reserch if it were not feesible. Goverment knows they have something here. Someday water will be our major fuel source.

that's what that book is called!!!!!!!!!! i'm going to buy it tomorrow thank you i couldn't remember what it is called. And Ryan is right Wurm if the glaciers melt and iceburgs the sea level will rise, i forgot how much. But it's not just the sea level rising that is the problem its kind of like "the day after tomorrow" but not to that extent...

I wasn't talking about antartica. Most of the worrying about flooding is talking about the North Pole, which was what I was alluding too. I never mentioned Antartica at all.

Chritons book gives alot of scientific data that glacier melting trends are natural and have subsided since the 1920 -30's and man's ecological interreaction has little or no affect on it. It's all part of nature's global cycle.

regardless, there is a large amount of ice on land at the north pole, so the same theory applies.

yeah okay, whatever, I give.

ive been saying that for over 10 years but nobody listens to me!! my wife is a wetlands biologist and im always tryign to convince her . slowly but sure;y i have been succeding. im goign to make her read his book next. i pointed it out to he r int he store the otehr day without mentioning what it was about;)

did anyone see scientific american last week about the warming/melting in the tundra ? ahh that show was giving me FITS with its inaccuracies and stupid conclusions!!!

Try being a creationist like I am and trying to watch anything on TV. I cringe all the time.

i bought state of fear today i'll tell you guys how it is. I bought it on audio tape tho cause they don't make it on paperback until november 2005(seems like bs to me but thats what barns and noble told me). Anyways i'll "Read" it and tell you how it is on monday. Oh yea and the audio tape was on sale, not the hardback...

Zoom44, I totally agree with you that for the purposes of R&D, the Hydro RX-8 is usefull. I was just simplay stating that if sold as it stand now, to me the car is useless, as I, if given the choice, would never want to switch to the low power mode, simply because I love driving the 8 as it is.

Geography Lesson for the day: I'm fairly certain there is no land under the northern ice cap.

yeah me too about the northern ice cap

bud it's a solid it'd be like it hit a tank of styrfoam except the stryofoam could eat through anyhting organic like that bug fire from starship troopers but still. it wont even burn if you put a torch on it, just pop and smolder.

Methane from cows
 

What about the methane from all the cows?? They are the real culprit in this whole global warming problem. Perhaps some Malox in the feed will save the world.

Don't let enviromentalists fool you! They've known that there isn't any such thing as global warming caused by industri for years now. But if they said different they would loose funding and wouldn't get paid. You can't put a cat converter on a volcano, and just one volcano going off puts more crap in the air in one instant than all the years of industry combined. I'm going to say it one more time because it's my Soap box.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GLOBAL WARMING BY HUMAN INTEREFERENCE!!!

it's all a lie!

Personally , I'd be very worried if the ambient anual temperature of the planet wasnt rising at a steady rate, after all, we are still coming out of an ice age. Not long now (according to history) til another one is upon us.
Environmentalists should just look at the past, after all, history has a habit of repeatin itself (unless you're a Liverpool fan)!!!

Just wondering. Does the CNG conversion work on rotary?

I'm from Singapore. For the regular vehicles I heard, the cng tanks are installed in the car boot. Hence, since the 8 has a boot, there should be sufficient space for in car for the extra gas tanks.

For those guys without any need for the seats behind, they can even add more gas tanks at the back.

Also, I think we should not dwell too much into the hydrogen 8, since its really up to mazda to decide what is their strategic direction. Making more posts on feasibility won't yield a better state of affairs, but would instead create more .... unfruitful debates. Just my 2 cents.

There used to be a conversion kit in Australia years ago that was for making a rotary run on CNG. It can be done. The rotary will run on almost anything.