New owner - Hurricane sandy style
 

Hello my new RX8 friends. Im from oceanside NY and recently lost my 2004 GTO 6-speed to the storm. I was fortunate to find a 2011 Mazda RX-8, 6speed manual, with only 3,800 miles in Bay shore. The 8 is black on black with leather and navigation. Purchase price was $20990, not including tax. I would like some advice, as a plan to upgrade some parts. Im interested in upgrading the radiator to aluminum, like i had on the GTO. Coilovers? What are your opinions on msd ignition products? Whats the best hand held tuner, COBB? Does this car have a portable throttle body? If i go catless mids, are there any custom tuners in NY that know this car?

All i am waiting on is for allstate to send me the rest of my down payment, and should be picking up the car within the next two weeks. I will post some pics asap.

Thanks in advance, TLA88

Here are some website pics

RIWWP is our resident welcome wagon, since it is early Sunday and you seem to have some time, please read here:

https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...t-here-202454/

Lots of good reading and especially important to know the quirkiness of the rotary engine. There are some things that are different about them that require you to treat them special. A true enthusiasts car.

Foremost, never turn off the car right after starting it and the engine is cold, this will result in a flooded engine, always allow the engine to warm up and lean out before turning off. Read the link above tons of great info.


There are many good tuners in the rotary world finding one that you feel is in alignment with your desires for the car is the trick.

I am sure you know this already, these cars are about handling and LOVE to be in track and Autocross situations, as well as getting off the Island and enjoying some nice mountain roads.
head out the Deals Gap Rotary Rally that happens every spring, amazing roads and tons of great cars, as well as tuners coming out.

You are also going to find out that Mazda locked down the software on the RX8's pretty tight. I know Pettit Racing spent a ton of money cracking the code so they could reflash the series 1 RX8's ECU's when he installed a Super Charger kit in them.

The only option I am aware of at this point for a series 2 is to pull the factory ECU and go stand alone if you are interested in big HP gains vie forced induction.


As far as getting more HP out of the current RX8's there is not a lot to get, Mazda pushed that envelope pretty hard already. Things like Cat back exhaust net you zero HP and in some cases minus, same goes for intakes, the only thing they do is make the engine sound louder.

Concentrate on the suspension (which is already amazing) and the brakes, then get into track days or Autocrossing and you will love your car.

Welcome to the club.

:lol: @ Jims. 'Welcome wagon' is a new one

Yes tla, read the first 9 posts of the new owner's thread. Keep in mind that since your 8 is basically brand new, and also a series 2, you are off to quite a good start.

As far as modding, check out my signature for the link to my modding thread.

Is that an aftermarket HU? Sounds like a reasonable deal.

Also, "Bright Bay" is going to have to take down that Suzuki sign soon, unless they're selling bikes.

Welcome,!

Looks like a good one.
I love the photoshopped showroom.

Wrong advice..
 

Someone wrote "Foremost, never turn off the car right after starting it and the engine is cold, this will result in a flooded engine, always allow the engine to warm up and lean out before turning off. Read the link above tons of great info. "

Must be someone who owns an older RX8. I have a 2009 and I have never had a flooded engine. started and moved my car a few feet so my wife could get her car out many gtimes. The older models had this problem, not the newer ones.

I have 40k+ on my 2009 GT and I do not do much of what they advise on these forums. You can do stuff like "pre-mix", "redline once a day" and other such stuff but it is also perfectly okay if you treat it like any other car except perhaps check your oil levels a bit more often.

See my new owner's link, both sets of advice are slightly incorrect, since neither set of advice even mentions the primary cause of flooding: Ignition failure. A healthy ignition, battery, starter, compression, and grounding points will never flood, even with shutting off cold. Let one of them go bad (on either series 1 or series 2) and your chance of flooding goes up.

Flooding is a symptom, not a problem.

:wallbash:

Having owned various Rotary cars over the last 25 years, I always try to be a good them as I possibly can and recognize their idiosyncrasies.

For some weird reason my Series 2 (2009 R3) RX8 has these neat little LED's on the dash around my tach and in my owners manual states to let the car warm up enough that these LED's are off.

I never really needed an owners manual to tell me that, I have owned second gen RX7's for many many years, including my FC with a REW engine in it, I never turned off a cold rotary, ever.

Having installed a Motec M4 in my FC, and having my choke removed from my throttle body, I learned a lot about what a Rotary wants to be happy when cold, and that is a very rich mixture, which = lots of gas pouring in at start up. The last thing I would want to do is start my FC up and shut it off cold, one reason is fear of flooding it, second reason is I personally feel it is really bad for a rotary engine o be started for a few seconds and shut of cold. In my Motec - My fuel demand at startup and idling when cold is remarkable and almost alarming. I am using the same amount of fuel at those moments as I would under low boost and mid RPM's. Yes, that much fuel. So I disagree that flooding is a symptom and not a problem, it is the way these cars were designed.

I have no problem, being an enthusiast, let my car run a few extra minutes when I start it. I also premix and I am a huge proponent of it, I have seen engines tore down that dd not premix and did and the difference in wear is startling.

These cars get a bad reputation as having short lived engines. I am doing all I can with my RX8 to avoid that.

You will be that guy screaming and yelling Rotaries are a POS and you should get more than 60K miles out of an engine.

Read your owners manual at the very least if you are not going to read anything on here.

Ok, thanks. As for premixing, can you elaborate un poquito mas por favor? I read somewhere that owners where adding two cycle oil straight into the gas tank.

In my modding thread:
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...rx-8-a-233937/

Premix
(no impact to warranty)
Premix thread: https://www.rx8club.com/tech-garage-...-thread-99636/
Premix is mixing 2-stroke oil with the gas in the gas tank to assist with lubrication of the apex seals. Why 2-stroke? Because 2-stroke (in general) is designed to be burned. Unlike 4-stroke that you use in during oil changes. Why premix? This gets a bit more vague when answering. The short answer is as noted, to assist with apex seal lubrication. But do we need it? That's a tougher question to answer with facts. Some people swear by it, others do just fine without it. Series 1 has 2 injectors pointing at the side seals, Series 2 adds a center injector to help with lubricating the center of the apex seal. Mazda added this, so they must have found excessive wear in the center of the apex seal, so it's circumstantial evidence for the need to premix. It's hard to say if this will save your engine from apex seal wear failure though. About the only confirmed difference premixing really makes is that the carbon buildup inside the engine appears to be "softer". In theory, makes it easier to clean, and if it comes off it won't come off in dangerous flakes that could cause carbon lock.

Which premix to use? Lots of debate here too. There are lots of options, and not all of them are even oil. The list below is ordered from most ideal at the top, least ideal/not recommended at the bottom.

Idemitsu Premix is generally considered to be the best out there. The only draw back to it is accessibility in that you have to order it, and there are minimum order quantities. Often a member here will order a larger case and split it with locals, making this a bit easier, but it's also usually a 1-time thing.

Amsoil Saber Pro is highly regarded, and a bit easier to get than Idemitsu.

JASO FC and ISO oils basically other oil brands of the same type and grade as the two items above. May be easier to obtain than those.

TWC-3 Oils are usually easy to find, however it's not likely that you are doing much good with them. Not much harm, but small engines that require this type of oil can fail due to lack of lubrication from it, so it might not be sufficient for us. Post from Emery on this:
Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) is common, and easy to obtain. Some people swear by it, others denouce it totally. The people that love it can't prove that it does anything good, and the people that say that it is worthless can only point at it's cleaning agents as being a problem, which doesn't even sound like it's that big of a problem. All in all though, it probably doesn't have much lubrication compared to some of the other options above, so it could be considered to probably be on the same level as TWC-3. I.e., not doing much.

Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant (Lucas UCL) is a non-oil you can find out there, but we can't recommend it. We can't prove that it causes any fuel filter problems, but for some unknown reason it shows up in a significant percentage of fuel filter problem threads (>2 in 3 threads at a guess). Doesn't even make sense why it would cause problems since it's still just a liquid that can go through the filter, but often fuel filter problem threads include the owner using it for a while before hand, and then stops using it and the problem clears up.

How much premix? The standard amount is about 1oz for every 2 gallons of gas. Some people go 1oz for every 3 or 4 gallons, and some go for 1oz to 1 gallon. 1oz for 1 gallon is getting on the high end though, so don't just use that to use it. Dig into why you want that much. One of the common reasons for going to 1oz to 1 gallon is for a track day. Lots of heat means a bit better lubrication could be a good thing in the end. Note that these values are for how much fuel you are putting into the gas tank. So if you are filling up at halfway and adding 7 gallons, then about 3.5oz is ideal. If you never fill till the light comes on, then around 6.5oz is more accurate. Some premix containers come with a measuring method built right into the top, otherwise it might be useful to find some small plastic containers of the ideal size to keep several on hand. I lost them in a prior move and haven't replaced them, but for a while I was using four 6oz bottles that were originally intended for hair products. Clean them out thoroughly, let them dry, fill ahead of time, and keep tucked in the car to easily add when I fill up. If you opt for this and don't use glass bottles, I'd recommend replacing the bottles periodically, maybe every 6 months. Most plastics aren't of a grade that is designed to hold petroleum products, and it will start to break down from the inside after a while.

Flooding is excess fuel in the combustion chamber. I fail to see how ignition, starter, etc., can prevent that. They can certainly help start the car after it floods, so you may not realize it was flooded and you don't make it worse, but exactly how do they prevent excess fuel from getting there in the first place?

IMHO, fear of flooding adds a certain mystique to the rotary, and provides an excuse for an extra spin around the block every now and then. It's a feature, not a problem. ;)

Ken

How do you think the excess fuel got there?

It wasn't the ECU deciding to inject more fuel than the engine could hope to handle. It's the ECU injecting fuel that the ignition can't burn. This is always because the ignition doesn't have enough strength to ignite the mixture OR too little compression needed for a combustion.

The air is there, the fuel is there in the right amount, the things that change are either compression (speed of rotation) or spark (ignition)

Since nobody has mentioned it, you cannot tune a 2009+ rx8 with any hand held tuners as of now. I think some have gone stand alone for the few turbos out there and people are researching other ways but there is nothing concrete like a cobb. You can see the forum here Series II Engine Tuning - RX8Club.com it is pretty sparse.

Welcome aboard! Anyway, you'll get that money from the insurance company and upgrade your new ride...that's nice! ;)

Owners manual...
 

Jim writes "You will be that guy screaming and yelling Rotaries are a POS and you should get more than 60K miles out of an engine.

Read your owners manual at the very least if you are not going to read anything on here. "

I did as you suggested, several times, but have yet to find anything that says I need to "pre-mix" or "redline" once a day or at all.

I also no others, including a 65 year old secretary in my office building with a 2007 RX that is hitting 81K without any problems not doing what you advise. I would appreciate if you could point out where in the manual it says to pre-mix or redline?

The problem with this forum is that it is mostly enthusiasts who drive their cars hard or race. There are many others for whom the RX8 is simply just another car they bought because they like its looks and "cool" factor and they have had no problems with it, especially the 2009 or later ones.

There are certain things they cannot tell you to do for legal reasons and I'm pretty sure what you mentioned falls under that. You are not going to find any manufacturer telling you to redline your car and go fast, and I doubt epa tests were done with premix in the gas so that recommendation is out the window as well. It has been proven over the years that premix helps, how could a little extra lube in there be a bad thing?

Has the person with the 81k miles ever had a compression test done? For all you know the motor has bad compression but just not bad enough to cause problems yet.

Of course this forum is full of enthusiasts, who else would come to a car forum? If it is just another car for a person then they wont be seeking this type of thing out. Time after time when someone posts about hating this car they usually had no clue about it when they bought it. They all thought it was just another car and then end up with problems because they choose not to take care of it. If you want to believe this car needs no special attention then you can, and maybe you are lucky and have not had to do anything yet.

I am talking about the turning off a cold engine part which you glossed over.

My R3 is my wifes daily driver not my race car, I am taking what I have learned from 25+ years of tuning Rotaries and applying it.

As many other here are trying to be nice and share.


If Mazda told its customers to premix guess what? No one would ever buy their Rotary cars. That is why they hopelessly inject engine oil into the combustion chamber.

Guess what, I have no OMP in my RX7, I took it out a long time ago and purely premix. My engine makes almost 3X the designed HP and I do not drive it easy, yet, I have over 20K miles on this engine (I blew 2 up learning to get it right) and have no worries about a premature failure.

What I learned from that car I am applying to my wifes car, she has been instructed to never turn it off cold (as it says int he owners manual and the LED's on the dash remind her) and I told her to drive it and no baby it.

I am not a fan of hitting the 9K redline and prefer to keep it under 8K RPMS. This is another thing I learned from my RX7 there is no magic power being made over 9K RPMs just unnecessary engine wear.

I saw in person what a premixed engine and OMP engine look like and I can tell you without hesitation the OMP does not do a good job. It is really good at making lines 1/2 way around the rotor housing about 1/8" thick. That 1/8" line is where the oil is actually lubricating the seals.


I would not call enthusiasts racing cars and sharing what they learn a problem with this forum, it is a bonus, because they are pushing these engines harder that you or your 65 year old secretary ever will. Their input helps the rest of us make decisions as to whether or not we want to do these things.

Premix is a perfect example of that.

It's exactly the ECU injecting more fuel than the engine can handle if it's shut down before it gets burned. When you start cold, the ECU injects a rich mixture. The equivalent of what a choke does with a carburetor. Needs the rich mixture when cold, but it's a transient thing. As long as the engine keeps running til it warms up all is fine.

Shut it down, and the excess fuel is left to condense. Spark plugs in the rotary are at the bottom, where they get soaked and their ability to spark is impaired. And the fuel can wash off the oil that helps hold compression, etc.

I don't think flooding is guaranteed as some believe. Just one of those odds things. Good ignition and a fast starter enhance the odds of a flooded engine starting without drama the next time. But they can't do anything to prevent excess fuel from a premature cold shut down.

Ken

I thought the Adaptronic worked for Series-II RX-8's without a problem.

looking clean man, sorry about your gto

Yes someone did use an adaptronic ecu for a turbo series 2 but from what I read on here its pretty much in the same boat as a stand alone ecu because it takes control of everything major. I'm not sure which one they are using but a lot of them are quite pricey and that is before you even get to installing or tuning it.

because everyone follows the owners manual to a tee..........

bet your using 5w-20 mineral oil also.................

That was not my point, the argument was that turning off a cold engine was o.k. and that is was a fictitious claim to be a bad thing on this forum. That was why I told him to look in his owners manual.

No I am using 5w-30 in the colder months and 5w-40 in the warmer months. I would prefer to use 20w-50 but that is a sticking point with the dealership so we are both compromising. Since I have a 5 year 60K mile warranty on the car, I am trying to be on the same page as they are as much as possible. All the points in this thread have been discussed and an agreement has been reached. Thankfully, the lead tech is a Rotorhead like me so there is not too much arguing going on.


Another thing I learned from my RX7 is that using synthetic oil is a waste of money. On my RX7 I only run 20w-50 and change it every 1500-2000 miles. On the 8 I am changing every 3000 miles and, as mentioned using 5s-30 or 5w-40.

Does the owner's manual for any year say to not shut off cold? For my '06 that's in the Quick Tips guide and the DVD, but it's not in the owner's manual itself. OMs vary from year to year, though, so I can't speak for other years.

Ken

My good friend had an '04 (big part of the reason I have an '09 was because he let me drive his at an AX in anger) and he had his towed to the dealership 3 times with a flooded engine due to moving it and shutting it off cold.

He never mentioned the problem to me otherwise I would have schooled him on what to do to make the car happier.

I will scan my owners manual for you.

Question, if Mazda realized later on that this was a problem with the Renesis, (actually is a problem for all rotary engines) and they release new info for the series 2 cars and even go as far as put LED's in the tach to remind you to let it warm up, would you want to take this info and use it?

Or ignore it because it was not in YOUR owners manual.

[jackass]
Ignore it, because it's on Mazda's head to take care of it.
[/jackass]

The info is out there, and it was in both the QT book and the DVD. I don't think the dealer told me. But how many people buy this unique a car without running into the flooding info one way or another? Not a big deal to be aware and not push one's luck.

Although I did meet someone who had an RX-7 when in college, and had a nightmare of a time with flooding. Even once aware of the issue, he'd still start it for short runs when shuffling cars in the driveway.

Ken

As a point of note, the spark plugs aren't on the bottom, but halfway down the side. You are correct for why there is excess fuel, and you are correct that flooding isn't guaranteed. A healthy ignition system, enough cranking RPM, and sufficient compression from seals will easily overcome the excess fuel every time. It's when one of these starts failing that the excess fuel before more than the ignition can handle.

Jims,

You have generally good advice for people, but you are mis-construing parts in the wrong direction.

A) Your friend with the RX-8 clearly needed to get his ignition healthy and/or MSP-16 (Which adjusted the fuel injection when cold to reduce excess fuel on cold shut-off to more manageable levels)

B) The LEDs on the tach are not there specifically for flooding. The LEDs are there with the tach as part of the 3 level rev limit, vs the series 1's 2 level rev limit. A rev limit will never make an impact on shutting off cold. It's there to help try and save the engine if people start trying to drive hard when cold.


Yes, Mazda recommends (in various methods and sources), the rotary community recommends, and nearly every piston engine enthusiast community ... all recommend not shutting an engine off cold. It's just much better for an engine to let it come up to temp first all around. I don't even turn off my MSM's engine cold, even though I don't have a flooding risk there.

The flooding risk is as stated above. If everything is healthy, there is no flooding risk shutting off cold. It's still not a good idea due to oil pressures and temps. But if you have to, you only have the flooding risk if stuff is weakening or dying.

The major upgrade to the engine for the Series 2 RX-8 was an improved oil injection system. I think you're at very little risk if you don't run pre-mix in a S2.

RIWWP, the LEDs may not be there specifically for flooding (as you say, they indicate a reduced rev limit for a cold engine), but the manual does say not to turn the car off unless the first light is off. Elsewhere it says not to turn the car off until the temperature gauge needle is in the middle. I know that the dealer moved mine several times and shut it off cold on the day I picked it up, but I also know that on that day, a current RX-8 owner who was at the dealership told my wife not to shut the car off cold, because he had just learned the hard way that the RX-8 was susceptible to flooding. It may not be likely to happen, but given that it's significantly more common than any other car, what's the harm in taking a simple precaution? There are other benefits, too -- not having moisture with dissolved acids in the exhaust system or combustion chamber, for instance.

I think you are missing everywhere in my post, my new owner's thread, my other advice all over the boards that I still recommend not shutting off ANY car cold, rotary or not.

I am simply saying that shutting off cold will only cause a flooding problem if you have weak ignition, compression, cranking speed, etc... I am not saying "go ahead and shut it off cold if everything is fine", because you still shouldn't.

I kinda said this multiple times in this very thread if you read what I typed. (which is uncommon, I know)

I'd bold the parts where I said this, but then it would all be bolded.

Highlighted bold in the next quote.

That is what it says in my owners manual, even though I think I am a know it all when it comes to rotaries* I did sit down and read the manual to make sure not too much has changed. I found it refreshing that Mazda actually addressed this issue straight on, so much so as to put LED's on the tach to remind you. Again, moot point for me, I knew so much already, especially when I started creating my own fuel maps for my car back in 2002 when no one else was using a Motec except pro's who were not willing to share their maps with the general public. I was lucky enough to procure a Alcohol map from a drag sand rail with a rotary and M4 and kind of base my maps on that, sort of.

It was until Steve (Pluto) Kahn came to Pettits and tuned my car, that I really learned a lot about timing split, cold start and many other parameters of tuning a rotary, I would hire him again in a second just to learn more.

* There are many in the Rotary community, Judge Ito, Pluto, BDC, Himini etc... that are great are marketing themselves and promoting themselves.

I never did that, I just like to play with these car, I LOVE racing them and I LOVE beating the shit out of piston cars with them, especially the ones that cost many times more and are expecting to beat me. My enthusiasm for these cars is off the scales. It is a dream come true to have an RX8 in my garage next to my 7. I can still remember the Mazda Rev it up ack in 2003 where there was an 8 on display, I was crawling around like, looking under it, trying to see the engine and brakes and suspension. I was geeking out over that car and it was not even for sale yet.

My account on here goes back to when the car first released the this forum was in its infancy, while I was not an owner I was a lurker and when the opportunity to FINALLY get an 8 presented itself I jumped all over it.

I wish I could contribute more to this forum, I have pushed these engines VERY hard and with fantastic results. Both my engine failures were unique and not as a result of wear and tear but catastrophic failures elsewhere.

I feel my advice is sound but in the name of keeping the peace around here, since a certain member seems to be on a warpath. I will keep my keyboard out of helping others.

I will stick to F1 and beer discussions.

"No man is so foolish but he may sometimes give another good counsel, and no man so wise that he may not easily err if he takes no other counsel than his own. He that is taught only by himself has a fool for a master." - Hunter S. Thompson

Ok, thanks for the oil discussion. So i am going to be picking up the car tomorrow and was wondering if any member knew what oem tire comes on the 2011? I need to know because i am looking to buy performance winter tires, but not sure if i should.

Thanks

Here she is, she really great. I need a name though...

Welcome. Clean S2. That does look like an aftermarket headunit. Sorry about the goat. I always wanted one...

It looks like the Navigation/Audio unit available on S2 cars - not aftermarket.