Need advice on RWD car in bad weather
 

Good day all,

I am planning on acquiring an RX8 GT package Titanium with black/chapural interior and appreciate ALL the wonderful insights and opinions shared on this forum. Thank you all very much.

An important concern I have is how nuch difficulty will I have driving this car in rainy or snowy conditions.

I have always owned FWD cars (Currently a Volvo V70 T5 wagon).

I have heard horror stories about how baddly some RWD cars handle in bad driving conditions.

What is the truth as I live in Long Island, N.Y.?

How does RWD compare to FWD in bad conditions?

And what can I do to make things better in bad weather or during the winter months? I have heard of people just not using their car in such cases (Not an option for me) or some put winter/ All weather tires on.

Any and all suggestions appreciated.

Thanks,

Claude H.

With a RWD car, there's a greater tendency to spin the back end around. But I've seen plenty of FWD (and 4WD) cars plow themselves straight off the road.

Some members have already suggested that they will be getting steel wheels with snow tires for the winter months. And the owner's manual recommends not using chains on the aluminum wheels, cuz they'll scratch.

But as far as handling goes, the DSC and ABS will help alot in keeping the car going the right direction in slippery conditions, but it is no substitute for experience.

I'd suggest that the first time it gets slippery, find a nice big open vacant parking lot -- and learn for yourself how well it performs. If you don't have that chance, then simply don't push the limits in those conditions: Stay below the speed limit, brake earlier, etc.

-ss

besides here on long island we only have to worry about the rain. Besides this winter we havent gotten much snow, so you should be fine..

Summer performance tires (such as those on the RX-8) are completely useless in snow. It's not a factor of RWD, it's the tires which causes so much problem for most vehicles! I plan to put 17" alloy wheels with winter tires on my RX-8 if it ever arrives. With proper winter tires and the DSC, I expect the RX-8 to do just fine. Mine will be making frequent trips to the local ski areas in the Rockies...

If you encounter snow, run winter tires or don't drive it until the snow is gone. (All-season tires are just mediocre rather than completely useless - if you're going to run different tires for winter conditions, make sure they're real winter tires).

Regards,
Gordon

Everything here is good advice, especially the winter tires. As some one whose owned only RWD cars (except my current WRX wagon) since 1988.....winter tires makes a big difference in snowy/icy conditions. And not just for going, which most people concentrate on, but more importantly for stopping!

AWD and FWD might help in acceleration, but they do nothing for braking (which is why I passed many a Ford Explorer in a ditch this winter).


One other piece of advice..drive smoothly. Don't slam on the brakes, brake early and smoothly. Don't jerk the steering wheel around and don't be lead footed on the throttle.

You can drive a RWD car in bad weather with the right tires. You just can't fling the thing around like a sportscar. When it snows drive it like a Camry:p

I lived in Minnesota a while back and had a Mustang GT there. Between the 60/40 weight distribution and the tires not really being all-season, I had a heck of a time getting anywhere in the winter. Even with a sand bag in the trunk, it would get bogged down in the slightest bit of snow.

I swapped in a set of Blizzak snow tires and *wow* what a difference. Still had to be careful to not accelerate too hard, but stopping grip was impressive and no more problems getting bogged down in loose snow -- the car was every bit as drivable if not more so than the front wheel drive car it had replaced. This car didn't have any kind of traction control or dynamic stability either, just a big torquey 5.0L V8.

The Blizzaks are very soft tires, though, so you have to watch the cornering (they roll a lot more than standard tires) and the tread wears out quickly if they're driven in warm weather.

--SL01

Simple really. Your tires have only so much traction available before you "lose it". This can happen if you have the wrong tires for the weather, ie summer tires in the winter or you are driving too fast for the available traction or you are applying too much throttle and break the tires loose. Make sure you have the proper tires for the season and take it easy on the throttle and steering inputs, especially on turns. Common sense really.. No 8,000rpm shifts mid corner in the rain. :)

I have owned several RWD cars and if you use snow tires, especially Blizzaks, you will be fine. In fact, I will take RWD with snow tires over FWD with AS tires any day.

The modern traction control systems are amazing. With my G35, I do fine with the OEN AS tires, though I would not try a steep, snow-covered hill.

The low clearance of the RX-8 will be more of an issue than traction if you put snow tires on the car.

Like most people have said here, it's a factor of experience. You have to know when the car will lose traction, to what degree, and how recoverable it is when you do lose traction. I have only driven RWD in the winter for four years now (RX-7's to be precise) and I actually prefer a RWD vehicle to a FWD one. I should also mention that I'm from Saskatchewan, so winter here is quite a bit different than winter down south in Yankee land ;). Like any driving, you just have to be mindful of the limits.

I do recommend snow tires though. I'm getting some Blizzaks this winter, a first for me. Usually I use Canadian Tire All-Seasons, which are slightly worse than frozen pucks. ;)

Thanks for the input on this subject.

Seems I will have to consider a set Blizzaks for the winter then.

Of course another few questions comes to mind:

1) I should get 17" aluminum rims, right? Any thing special I should get in the way of rims?
2) Is Sears a good place to go for rims/tires?
3) Do I change all 4 tires?
4) This past year we had snow more frequently than ususal, once the first snow falls I will change the tires for the season. Is it OK to leave these tires on for a few months and drive on them even without any snow?

Lastly, what is the downside of using Winter tires?


Guys thanks again for the input, I am clearly a novice at this and appreciate the wisdom.

Claude H.

Driven every RX-7 I've had in the snow. Just takes a little practice and a very light foot.

Snow is ok but avoid dead stops on slippery hills. Getting going again can be fun;)

Dedicated snows help. Get 4 or the handling can be scary.

I've driven my '93 RX-7 in the snow with Dunlop A/S 4000 and it did ok. Just don't drive when the snow rubs under the car. FWD can handle it but RWD often gets stuck.

Back end will come out often while accelerating but you will get used to it (and come to enjoy it!). I love tapping the gas at low speed to put the back end out slightly - watch the winter tail gaters back up:D

1. You would probably be best off with 16" Rims, like the automatic car, with higher profile tires to compensate for the differennce in rolling radius.

2. No. Get a winter package from The Tire Rack, www.tirerack.com .

3. YES! YES! With the traction control and stability systems, he car will be dangerous without all four tires of the same type.

4. If you get a soft rubber snow tire like the Blizzak, they will wear out faster.

Downside: #4, and they will not perform as well on dry pavement as summer tires.

Hey we said winter tires - there's lots of companies that produce winter tires, not just Bridgestone with the Blizzak (they just have the biggest advertising budget). Blizzaks are great on ice, good on snow, mediocre on dry pavement, and don't last very long. There are other winter tires that are as good or nearly as good on ice, and better in every other way.

1) The wheels need to clear the larger brakes setup on the sport package - 16" wheels might not fit, 17" wheels will.
2) Agree with Tire Rack, but chances are they will only have Blizzak packages! ;)
3) YES! Rear wheel traction makes you go, but you need front wheel traction to stop or turn.

Downside - less grip on dry pavement than summer tires - you have to slow down more for corners, brake sooner, etc. They will wear faster as well, depending on the particular tire. Oh, and they're usually noisier than summer tires!

Regards,
Gordon

I agree on 16 vs. 17. 16" will offer much more selection, and be cheaper.

You can go other national places besides Tire Rack, such as Discount Tire. But indeed a national mail-order house is usually the best. Your local auto care shop is just not going to have a big selection of compatible wheel/tire packages. The mail-order companies ship you everything ready to go. Plus their web sites can filter to all the compatible packages that will maintain the same radius. At least if they already have the RX-8 data in their systems, that is. As far as mounting, I swap 'em myself twice a year, but you can get it done anywhere for not much $.

Downside -- the smaller, cheaper wheels just don't look as good. That's the worst of it for me! :-) I've got an Audi TT with the swell factory 17" flat spoke wheels, and my winter Borbets just don't measure up. :-(

1. with a 12.7" rotor a 16" may not fit, just be sure first. but like DonG35Miata higher sidewall is better just because it will protect the rim better from that stone or pot-hole you can't under all that snow.



Downside, depends on the air temperature. Most max/ultra high-performance tires become hard as stone below 40F. However, above 55F snow tires wear very quickly. So, a warm winter can quickly wear out a winter tire.

You may want to look at some of the Euro oriented performance snow tires like the Blizzak LM-22 or Michelin Alpine Pilots, etc. They aren't as aggressive in snow and ice but hold up much better in dry conditions. I used a set of Blizzak MZ-01 "Autobahn winter tire" on a BMW 328i and they where a very good tire, good in the snow and decent in the dry (not great in the dry, just decent). This was in MI by the way, lots of snow and slush.

follow-up -- I have found Michelin Arctic Alpins to be wonderful. I think magazine tests have shown that, too.

On a side note, I live in Minneapolis, and you wouldn't believe how many people here insist they need 4WD/AWD for the winter, yet have no understanding of the difference between all-season and snow tires, or the previously mentioned issue of braking. The old folks remember snow tires, but it seems nobody else does. The SUV/Audi/Subaru dealers make a killing here, what with all the AWD frenzy.

I've owned RWD, FWD, and AWD up here in New England.

As mentioned before, snow tires make a world of difference regardless of drive-type. However, even with snow tires RWD can be more difficult to drive in the snow than FWD or (especially) AWD depending on the terrain and severity of the weather. With both FWD and RWD I had to plan my route during snow storms and sometimes opted not to go out at all (but that really only happened once or twice a year... and only during the more intense winters).

With AWD, I don't give it a second thought. Doesn't matter if there's a blizzard out there, if I have to drive up steep hills, etc... my WRX has no problem with any of it. To be clear, I'm not saying it allows me to throw caution to the wind... I still increase my following distance and take it slow in slippery conditions. But you have to do something pretty stupid to get stuck in the snow with AWD (while sometimes you have to be careful to prevent getting stuck with RWD, especially a car with as little clearance as the RX-8).

In summary RWD is not as convenient as AWD for winter-driving, but if you get snow tires, use your head, and don't expect to be able to drive during severe conditions, you'll be fine.

Man, you guys are great. Thanks for the info.

I have never had to think much of this in the past but see that I will have to deal with this next winter.

1) As I see it, based on the responses posted so far, I will get 4 snow tires and aluminum rims (17") for the RX8 MT, GT package. Not 18" as comes with the car in order to get more tire sidewall depth to deal with those snow hiden pot holes. My reasoning is correct on the 17" stuff, yes??????

2) Of course I w/b concerned about getting the correct brand of snow tire that will give me the best traction in the snow yet be usable in dry waether (without excessive wear) as well, since it really doesn't snow all that often in Long Island, NY (Except this past year). The point beying that I will probably have the tires on for 4 months or so and will be driving in dry condtions for the most part during this time.

I take it any aluminun rims I choose should be OK, just have to find the right rims that meet the look I want for the price I am willing to pay.

Any more suggestions as to tires or rims would be nice.

From what I read, going to any reputable nationwide tire dealer (Sears included?) can be relied upon to make proper recommendations for the RX8? Other than my usual distrust of sales people, they will have the tools (database) to not stear me wrong I hope.

Thanks,

Claude H.

Not quite -- you have to make sure the rims have the right bolt pattern to fit. Also, does anyone know if 17" rims will fit over the larger front brakes on the manual transmission RX-8?

NO! I wouldn't trust the average tire shop salesperson to pick tires for me ever. There's way too many horror stories of them selling incorrect sizes and poor choices of tire model, especially for performance cars. Double-check with us here before deciding anything!

Wheels must meet the bolt pattern and offset, of course - for the RX-8, stock is 4x114.5 pattern and offset 50 mm. I'd go down to offset 45 at the outside. 17" wheels are supposed to clear the brakes, and some 16" wheels might - it's unknown right now. Because of the diameter of the OEM 16" or 18" tires, there actually aren't that many choices at all for winter tires, especially if you want to go one width narrower (which is definitely preferable). Try searching for 215/55-17 or 215/60-16... :( Right now, I'm leaning towards the Pirelli Winter210 in the 215/55-17 size.

Regards,
Gordon

great tire info so far, how about driving technique?

so far i've seen:
- easy on the gas
- easy on the brake (i'll include easy on the down shift)
- increase following distance
- easy on the curves/turns

when the back end does come around which way do you throw the wheel? been a long time since i did this and i actually can't remember. seemed to be opposite of what you'd expect but it always worked.

by the way, i always thought 50/50 weight distribution would help winter drivability, but my experience is it just helps the car spin better.

OK - maybe I'm a bit older than most on here, but all we had in the old days was RWD cars. It really isn't a problem 99.9% of the time.

The only time I ever got worried in a RWD car was driving up a very steep hill, with lots of bends in the snow ... i.e. How do you push from behind round corners when there's no traction on the front wheels.

In general then, forget all the fancy tyres etc. I'm sure you'll find that the RX-8 is as easy to drive as any FWD car most of the time.

P.S. The reason it's RWD is the same reason they make formula 1 cars RWD

Modern high-performance tires become very hard when cold. It's not just the tread pattern, it's the compound too that makes then poor in winter weather.

claude4 I would recommend a snow tire like the Blizzak LM-22, Michelin Pilot Alpine, Pirelli 210 SnowSport, there are others. Classed as Performance Winter.

These class of winter tires are meant to be used on "performance cars" that are driven in packed snow, ice and slush. Just like we get here (I'm over in the NYC). They are not great on loose, deep snow, but since chances are roads will be partially plowed or the snow will be packed or half-melted from other cars they are more appropriate in crowded urban areas.


These tires are designed to meet the needs of winter driving on European highways or are made in the low profile sizes used as original equipment on American cars. They trade a little ice and snow traction for enhanced handling and high speed capability.
H or V speed rated.



These tires have become very popular for cars from BMW, M-B, Audi in Europe since the tires are available in the wider and larger sizes.

Actually chances are that any 17" snow tire will be one of these classes anyway.

The good thing about them is that in the dry they are about as good as some of the less performance oriented all-season tires and the wear is not as bad as a full winter tire.

Now if you lived in Buffalo subs, then you'd be better off with aggressive snow tires since you are more likely to run into loose and deep snow.

Where you buy the tire is not as important as what tire you buy, there's a guy over in Paramus that has nearly every tire on market and they're always the lowest price. The place and people look like bums. :p Discount Tire on Rt 17S


Tirerack has some good info on winter tires:
http://www.tirerack.com/winter/index.jsp

Big difference. First of all, we're talking about high performance tires now, vs. an all-season tire back in the day (or on many RWD cars now). Driving on summer tires - which is necessary to get all the performance you paid for - in the winter is nothing like driving a RWD car from decades ago. Also, the tires now are far wider, and that gives you far less traction in the snow. I doubt there were many tires in the 50s (or whenever) that had 235 mm section width tires.

Its all about using common sense and respect for mother nature.