Rich

In addition to this forum, I've read people's thoughts about the upcoming RX-8 on 350Z, Altima, Miata, and G35 forums, among others. While the majority of the people who contribute on those forums will not be interested in the RX-8, I think that they do present a reasonable cross-section of the automotive enthusiast community. They are the co-workers, friends, and relatives of the RX-8's potential customer base, and as such will be the people those potential customers will talk to as "experts" on all things automotive. The universal consensus among those enthusiasts is that rotary engines are just not reliable. Whatever the validity or invalidity of those beliefs, that is and will continue to be the prevailing opinion of most enthusiasts unless Mazda does something about it. It's hard to overstate the value of these people's opinions in the buying process for millions of car buyers. My dad buys whatever car my brother and I recommend, pretty much without question. My mom is considering a new car and will do the same. All it would take for most car buyers to completely remove the RX-8 from consideration is one word from the local "automotive expert" that the rotary isn't reliable. There is a very high FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) factor with any new technology, so it won't take much to scare off potential buyers. This is *the* thing that people are talking about on other forums, with torque and styling distant afterthoughts.

For the RX-8 to be a success, I think Mazda really needs to take a very proactive approach with the concerns many (most?) enthusiasts have regarding the reliability of the rotary. The warranty on the engine and drivetrain need to be great. If Mazda really does a good job with the reliability of the RENESIS, I don’t see why they couldn’t offer 10 years/100,000 miles, but I’m not an expert. Anyone from Mazda that's visited this site knows that we have been salivating for *anything* new about the RX-8. One of the press releases that comes out needs to be primarily about the reliability of the RENESIS. No one really gets excited about reliability, so there should be enough other information about the RENESIS so that the magazines will devote some space to the information, but it needs to have significant content about reliability. If possible, there should be a little "tech box" in as many articles about the RX-8 talking about the RENESIS citing the work that Mazda has done over the years to make the rotary more reliable. I know Mazda doesn't have control of what the magazines print, but I'm sure some discussion happens before each article is published. Last, in each interview Mazda people do about the RENESIS, reliability needs to be mentioned.

I know there are some out there that probably think that I'm overstating the case. However, I really believe that if Mazda gets the car perfect but doesn't work to convince the enthusiast public about the reliability of the RENESIS, the RX-8's sales will be weak.

Any thoughts? Have other that have been monitoring other forums seen the same thing?

zoom44

yeah i saw the same thing on the altima page linked in another thread. someone there said "you don't have to do a tune up at 60k because the engine will blow up on you then so you just get it replaced/ rebuilt" or something to that affect. and others posted oil consumption and coolant consumption with just as much exaggereation. i agree that mazda needs to get the word out. they should definetly get a car to consumer reports as soon as possible for review. many people trust their opinions and it would be good to tout in the marketing that they received good marks. anything too change the average person and non-rotory mechanics minds.

stan11003

I read some where they had a engine running non stop for six months.

Hercules

Which is why I registered and corrected them

wakeech

good point Rich, and ya Herc, i saw your link to there... :D good work.
but it's true, our most devout members cannot possibly canvas the entire internet telling everyone how wonderful this engine will be, let alone impact what the public will really think by getting the mags to say it'll be good...
i think that press releases and information aren't enough... publicity stunts are in order... "we ran this engine, without oil, for the equlivalent of 18 000 000 miles and it's still going strong" should be thier battle cry!! obviously that's pretty stupid, but i'm thinking info-mercial cheezi-and-sleazi-ness when promoting this engine as something competitive with a piston engine in terms of reliability, with every other advantage simply smacking the faces of anyone who'll see the commercial... "255 hp..." will forever be the first words out of their mouths, before ANYTHING else, i promise you... it's too bad too, 'cause the rest of the car is cool enough to get attention without rotary power!! :D

zoom44

exactly wakeech! they need to steal the energizer rabbit idea!put the car on a track and run it for like 24- 48hrs non-stop except for driver changes and fueling. then have the zoom zoom kid standing on the side of the track yelling "it keeps going and going and going!!!!" every time the car goes by. :D they could even have the car run that damn bunny over "nothing outlasts the renesis"

KrisA

Just like Mazda did with the Cosmo, they need to race the RX-8 in international endurance racing. Nothing proves the reliablilty of a machine like 24 hours at 100%. Use the results as part of a international add campaign to sell people on the reliablility of the rotary engine.

wakeech

AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!! the Zoom Zoom Kid yelling... :D
EXACTLY!!

Quick_lude

If I were you, I'd pitch this idea to the Mazda advertising company. :D

boowana

Rich:

I think yo are absolutely right! mazda needs to get the word out to offest the negative notions of a lot of people.
I must confess, I have never owned a rotary so this will be my first however, I still have a little uneasy feeling based on my perceptions and what I've heard.
I like the idea of posting test results but I am doubtful that Mazda would do so. For instance, if they were to advertise that a Renisis ran for X miles without stopping, then not back it up with a very good (read long-term) warranty, some might smell fish.
In any event, Mazda needs to tout the reliablility story and start doiing it now, not when the car comes out because that is too late.

My $0.02 worth.

zoom44

i recently saw a discover channel story on the new harley davidson motorcycle. they went thru the whole design and testing process including showing them run ning the engine at different rpms inside a metal( i think) box in the dessert. just to make sure the cooling system worked. maybe mazda could hook up with discover and do a show like that. very interesting to watch and a whole lot of publicity. just look what discover has done for that Jesse James guy and his custom bike buisiness.

Snrub

I find that enthusiasts who are knowledgable tend to know that the rotary is good. Many people try to appear like they know something about cars. These are the people who say the rotary is unreliable. Simply being different begs the question: "Why isn't it more prevelant?"

Check out the prices of 2nd and 3rd gen RX-7s vs. similar cars. You'll discover that they are dirt cheap! Given the fact that their performance is better than most of these cars, I think this is a good indication of the ignorance out there.

Obviously the racing success only influenced more hardcore enthusiasts. Knocking the Audi R8 off it's post would be the only thing that would have a real impact on this problem. There's been talk of CART's Cosworth being branded a Mazda. When the forumla is up for change in 2005, they should switch to a 13G or something. (4 rotor race engine)

wakeech

what what WHAT?? a rotary engine in top-flight kart racing?? HOLY CRAP!! where'd you hear about this?? i knew that the CART regs were in for a rewrite in 2005, but i knew nothing about changing the engine rules so drastically!! right on!!

Jerome81

Unfortunately, old habits die hard.

Not since the 1960's has the rotary been what you would call "unreliable". What people seem to forget is that that was new technology back then. There are enough other cars with pistons to forget that pistons used to only last 100K miles. Nobody would even look at a used car with 100K+ miles on it 15 years ago, yet nobody questions the piston. It is just that the rotary is so unique, and is only a few vehicles that makes this old idea die hard. The 3rd gen heat problems didn't help either.

Unfortunately, the idea the rotary is a gas guzzler is still going strong too. For the power, the rotary gets as good as, if not slightly better mileage than a piston of comparable power. Check the new Nissan's mileage for comparison, I think the RENESIS will top it. And I believe at top speeds, the rotary might actually consume less fuel than a piston, though I'm not sure about that.

Heck, back to reliability, look at the 24hours of LeMans race. 1991. Mazda had an all out win in the 787B 4 rotor racer. If you can win the 24 hours of LeMans on rotary power, I think that helps prove there isn't a fault in the design of the rotary that causes reliability problems. Also, Mazda is the ONLY Japanese car company to ever score the all out win. Toyota has never done it, neither has Nissan, and I'm not sure that Honda has tried. Those three companies are known for their quality cars, yet they've never been able to win.

I have no concerns on the rotary, but I know most people do, especially someone who has no idea what a rotary engine even is. I agree, a focus on reliability, including old 12A RX=7's with over 250K racing miles on the original motor would be good. If it was that good 20 years ago, imagine how good the RENESIS is now.

Good Duck

I don't think the warranty period has any correlation with relability. Hyundai have 10yrs/100k warranty on their drivetrain, but that doesn't mean that they are more reliable than Toyota. Ford will be offering extended 5yrs/100k powertrain warranty on their Focus to overcome the Focus' reputation for shoddy quality.

wakeech

that's true, but people associate long warranties with good reliability, or at least a big, thick safety blanket to guard against anything they might precieve going wrong.

rpm_pwr

Rotaries have a good reputation in Australia based largely on their involvement in motorsport. A lot of people I've met here remember that Mazda beat Porsche 4 years running at the Bathurst enduros and totally outclassed cars like the M3-R, NSX etc. Their sponsor at one stage (BP Visco) ran a great series of ads that pushed home the engine's reliability.

The same thing needs to be done here. For Australians it means more stuff like:
http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re...1/1999.MOUN.R4

-pete

Quick_lude

While the fact that the engine held up during a 24 hour race is great, I think most people including me are interested in everyday longterm reliability. Myself I am a newbie wrt to rotary engines, I know the basics but before I did some research my impression was also "overheating/rebuild/gas guzzler". Now that I chose to educate myself more I know that's not exactly the case, especially for the na engines.

Unfortunately if Mazda whishes to sell these in large numbers they will have to adress the public perception issue with some kind of promotion/reliabilty advertising/extended warranty. Joe Public will not take the time to do Internet research like us.

khoney

Mazda's worst enemies will be other car dealers, who will trash the rotary if a prospective buyer is 'on the fence'. And for some reason known only to God, many people believe what a car salesman says.

I think Mazda should address this issue on their web site. A lot of people believe everything that's on the Internet too

Dazz

Unfortunately the great uneducated masses out there speak louder than those of us who know and understand just how reliable the rotary engine is.

Mazda has to be careful not to overdo it of they were to go on and on about reliablility as some people might think they are trying too hard. Hopefully the car will do all of the talking necessary to convince those who are willing to listen

Unfortunately there are those who will always bag things out no matter what, and often it is disappointing that these people are the ones that some chooe to listen to.

I for one, think that anyone who is closed minded enough to listen to the fairy tales rather than the truth deserve to be denied the pleasure of owning a rotary powered vehicle.

I'd never try to convince anyone that the rotary is the best engine for everyone, but that comes down to the intended use of the vehicle, nothing to do with the reliability issues.

People seriously need to get over this unreliability thing and find something else better to talk about, especially those will absolutely no technical knowledge or actual experience with owning, racing or rebuilding a rotary engine.

wakeech

khoney, that's very interesting that you precieve Australia as being more "rotary friendly" with the case of reliability... Dazz, do you too sence this??

just thinking out loud, but i guess that the reason that Americans (and Canadians too, 'cause we barely have a culture that we can call "our" own...) reject it immediately is because of resistance to new and different trends in automobiles... i mean, just look at the cars that sell!! the boomers still, for a large part, rule the market, and their influence trickles down to even people MY age, their idea of "cool" is somehow nostaligic for some young too...
so, the cars with historic nameplates sell very well (for the most part), regardless of how good or bad a car is...
ALSO!! look at the way Americans like their engines... just as a matter of fact, they intensely dislike change in this department. they want it >4 litres, V8, PUSHROD for god's sake, all iron... etc. etc... well, that may be too much of a generalization, but it is fact that they wouldn't mind sticking with it if they at all could, for nostalgia's sake.
there are still critics of Ford's approach to the "modern" V 8 with overhead cams!! the Northstar (GM's overhead cam V8) is a very new concept for them!! now, imagine the enormous leap of faith it would take these same muscle-heads to accept the rotary...

yes yes, i know that these days practical wins out over "sport" in the American sence, but there are still more American style cars on the road than foreign marques, and not only by virtue of a lower price: if build and material quality matched the increase in price (matching it up with off-shores brands), American cars would dominate the road to an even greater exent today.

it's difficult to battle against a culture of conservatism: the American way is their own way, and don't like to follow others.

** PLEASE NOTE!! not bashing anything, simply stating what i observe...
except for push-rod valve actuation, there is no excuse for that. :P

n22lasing

Dazz

I understand were you might be coming from, but I'm afraid that there are more closed minded people out there [in regards to the rotary engine]. Along with the fact that Mazda is depending on the success of the RX-8, this car depends on the masses. I really hated it when Mazda stopped exporting the 3rd gen RX-7. Therefore, in a way those closed minded people that listened to the fairy tails inadvertently denied US the pleasure of owning other rotary powered cars. Mazda says if they have great success with the RX-8, we can see more rotary cars. I'm excited about that. Maybe a special Rotary Mazda6 and an 4th gen RX-7 will be in my garage, and maybe yours too. Spread the word, Rotary Engines = venerability

Quick_lude

I think a big part of the problem is that most Americans drive automatics. A 4 banger with low torque/auto will not suffice so manufacturers are making 6's and 8's with gobs of torque so the cars "feel" powerful. Only selected engines like the Northstar, Ford modular are slowly beginning to buck the trend. Not until the price of gas goes up in NA will people start thinking about manuals, high performance 4 and 6 cylinder engines.

said7

For me its quite the opposite. The allure of a different engine is what makes me want a rotary vehicle.

I think all cars are on equal footing in terms of reliabliltity. The only 2 factors that determine an unreliable car are....

1) a lemon, just unlucky.
2) owner maintenance. If yu take care of your car it will take care of you.

To me these apply to the same comment that domestics are less reliable than japenese cars. I do agree that mazda should make an effort to influence the less "non educated" car buyers.

MyT13B

Being a somewhat 'backyard mechanic' and having the experience of opening my 1974 13B for an overhaul while it was sitting in a wheelbarrow (in order to catch all the pieces that fall out), I can attest to the difference between the condition of a Mazda Rotary engine.

I have been Hot Rodding 1974 13B engines for over 20 years. Most engines I have overhauled have been considered 'Dead' by the previous owners.

Upon inspection, it was obvious that many did not follow the OEM book on caring for your Rotary. Usually oil related, they run them out of oil, or the inexperienced mechanics will flood the engine wil fuel, thus washing the seals to a dry condition and causing premature wear.

If it became common knowledge that you can pour a teaspoon of oil down each intake runner too keep the seals 'wet', I would bet that there would have been far less failures and horror stories.

I have done stock rebuilds all the way to a 275+hp turbocharged with secondary bridgeports and a Holley 670 TBI.

All have been very sweet running engines and virtually trouble free.

Participating in SCCA autocross events, my friends and competitors all had great respect and even some envy for my Rotary endevours.

I have only 'broken' one engine so far, thanks to trying some ether to start me up one winter day, That was the worst damage I have ever done to one of my engines; cracked the rear and intermediate housings on the combustion side

I have no doubt the new Renesis design will be a leap in reliability and power output and can safely say that Mazda is gonna 'raise the roof' once again!