Mazda MUST address reliability in publicity
 

In addition to this forum, I've read people's thoughts about the upcoming RX-8 on 350Z, Altima, Miata, and G35 forums, among others. While the majority of the people who contribute on those forums will not be interested in the RX-8, I think that they do present a reasonable cross-section of the automotive enthusiast community. They are the co-workers, friends, and relatives of the RX-8's potential customer base, and as such will be the people those potential customers will talk to as "experts" on all things automotive. The universal consensus among those enthusiasts is that rotary engines are just not reliable. Whatever the validity or invalidity of those beliefs, that is and will continue to be the prevailing opinion of most enthusiasts unless Mazda does something about it. It's hard to overstate the value of these people's opinions in the buying process for millions of car buyers. My dad buys whatever car my brother and I recommend, pretty much without question. My mom is considering a new car and will do the same. All it would take for most car buyers to completely remove the RX-8 from consideration is one word from the local "automotive expert" that the rotary isn't reliable. There is a very high FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) factor with any new technology, so it won't take much to scare off potential buyers. This is *the* thing that people are talking about on other forums, with torque and styling distant afterthoughts.

For the RX-8 to be a success, I think Mazda really needs to take a very proactive approach with the concerns many (most?) enthusiasts have regarding the reliability of the rotary. The warranty on the engine and drivetrain need to be great. If Mazda really does a good job with the reliability of the RENESIS, I don’t see why they couldn’t offer 10 years/100,000 miles, but I’m not an expert. Anyone from Mazda that's visited this site knows that we have been salivating for *anything* new about the RX-8. One of the press releases that comes out needs to be primarily about the reliability of the RENESIS. No one really gets excited about reliability, so there should be enough other information about the RENESIS so that the magazines will devote some space to the information, but it needs to have significant content about reliability. If possible, there should be a little "tech box" in as many articles about the RX-8 talking about the RENESIS citing the work that Mazda has done over the years to make the rotary more reliable. I know Mazda doesn't have control of what the magazines print, but I'm sure some discussion happens before each article is published. Last, in each interview Mazda people do about the RENESIS, reliability needs to be mentioned.

I know there are some out there that probably think that I'm overstating the case. However, I really believe that if Mazda gets the car perfect but doesn't work to convince the enthusiast public about the reliability of the RENESIS, the RX-8's sales will be weak.

Any thoughts? Have other that have been monitoring other forums seen the same thing?

yeah i saw the same thing on the altima page linked in another thread. someone there said "you don't have to do a tune up at 60k because the engine will blow up on you then so you just get it replaced/ rebuilt" or something to that affect. and others posted oil consumption and coolant consumption with just as much exaggereation. i agree that mazda needs to get the word out. they should definetly get a car to consumer reports as soon as possible for review. many people trust their opinions and it would be good to tout in the marketing that they received good marks. anything too change the average person and non-rotory mechanics minds.

I read some where they had a engine running non stop for six months.

Which is why I registered and corrected them :)

good point Rich, and ya Herc, i saw your link to there... :D good work.
but it's true, our most devout members cannot possibly canvas the entire internet telling everyone how wonderful this engine will be, let alone impact what the public will really think by getting the mags to say it'll be good...
i think that press releases and information aren't enough... publicity stunts are in order... "we ran this engine, without oil, for the equlivalent of 18 000 000 miles and it's still going strong" should be thier battle cry!! obviously that's pretty stupid, but i'm thinking info-mercial cheezi-and-sleazi-ness when promoting this engine as something competitive with a piston engine in terms of reliability, with every other advantage simply smacking the faces of anyone who'll see the commercial... "255 hp..." will forever be the first words out of their mouths, before ANYTHING else, i promise you... it's too bad too, 'cause the rest of the car is cool enough to get attention without rotary power!! :D

exactly wakeech! they need to steal the energizer rabbit idea!put the car on a track and run it for like 24- 48hrs non-stop except for driver changes and fueling. then have the zoom zoom kid standing on the side of the track yelling "it keeps going and going and going!!!!" every time the car goes by. :D they could even have the car run that damn bunny over "nothing outlasts the renesis"

Just like Mazda did with the Cosmo, they need to race the RX-8 in international endurance racing. Nothing proves the reliablilty of a machine like 24 hours at 100%. Use the results as part of a international add campaign to sell people on the reliablility of the rotary engine.

AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!! the Zoom Zoom Kid yelling... :D
EXACTLY!!

If I were you, I'd pitch this idea to the Mazda advertising company. :D

On the money..
 

Rich:

I think yo are absolutely right! mazda needs to get the word out to offest the negative notions of a lot of people.
I must confess, I have never owned a rotary so this will be my first however, I still have a little uneasy feeling based on my perceptions and what I've heard.
I like the idea of posting test results but I am doubtful that Mazda would do so. For instance, if they were to advertise that a Renisis ran for X miles without stopping, then not back it up with a very good (read long-term) warranty, some might smell fish.
In any event, Mazda needs to tout the reliablility story and start doiing it now, not when the car comes out because that is too late.

My $0.02 worth.:rolleyes:

i recently saw a discover channel story on the new harley davidson motorcycle. they went thru the whole design and testing process including showing them run ning the engine at different rpms inside a metal( i think) box in the dessert. just to make sure the cooling system worked. maybe mazda could hook up with discover and do a show like that. very interesting to watch and a whole lot of publicity. just look what discover has done for that Jesse James guy and his custom bike buisiness.

Re: Mazda MUST address reliability in publicity
 

I find that enthusiasts who are knowledgable tend to know that the rotary is good. Many people try to appear like they know something about cars. These are the people who say the rotary is unreliable. Simply being different begs the question: "Why isn't it more prevelant?"

Check out the prices of 2nd and 3rd gen RX-7s vs. similar cars. You'll discover that they are dirt cheap! Given the fact that their performance is better than most of these cars, I think this is a good indication of the ignorance out there.

Obviously the racing success only influenced more hardcore enthusiasts. Knocking the Audi R8 off it's post would be the only thing that would have a real impact on this problem. There's been talk of CART's Cosworth being branded a Mazda. When the forumla is up for change in 2005, they should switch to a 13G or something. (4 rotor race engine)

what what WHAT?? a rotary engine in top-flight kart racing?? HOLY CRAP!! where'd you hear about this?? i knew that the CART regs were in for a rewrite in 2005, but i knew nothing about changing the engine rules so drastically!! right on!!

Unfortunately, old habits die hard.

Not since the 1960's has the rotary been what you would call "unreliable". What people seem to forget is that that was new technology back then. There are enough other cars with pistons to forget that pistons used to only last 100K miles. Nobody would even look at a used car with 100K+ miles on it 15 years ago, yet nobody questions the piston. It is just that the rotary is so unique, and is only a few vehicles that makes this old idea die hard. The 3rd gen heat problems didn't help either.

Unfortunately, the idea the rotary is a gas guzzler is still going strong too. For the power, the rotary gets as good as, if not slightly better mileage than a piston of comparable power. Check the new Nissan's mileage for comparison, I think the RENESIS will top it. And I believe at top speeds, the rotary might actually consume less fuel than a piston, though I'm not sure about that.

Heck, back to reliability, look at the 24hours of LeMans race. 1991. Mazda had an all out win in the 787B 4 rotor racer. If you can win the 24 hours of LeMans on rotary power, I think that helps prove there isn't a fault in the design of the rotary that causes reliability problems. Also, Mazda is the ONLY Japanese car company to ever score the all out win. Toyota has never done it, neither has Nissan, and I'm not sure that Honda has tried. Those three companies are known for their quality cars, yet they've never been able to win.

I have no concerns on the rotary, but I know most people do, especially someone who has no idea what a rotary engine even is. I agree, a focus on reliability, including old 12A RX=7's with over 250K racing miles on the original motor would be good. If it was that good 20 years ago, imagine how good the RENESIS is now.

Re: Mazda MUST address reliability in publicity
 

I don't think the warranty period has any correlation with relability. Hyundai have 10yrs/100k warranty on their drivetrain, but that doesn't mean that they are more reliable than Toyota. Ford will be offering extended 5yrs/100k powertrain warranty on their Focus to overcome the Focus' reputation for shoddy quality.

that's true, but people associate long warranties with good reliability, or at least a big, thick safety blanket to guard against anything they might precieve going wrong.

Rotaries have a good reputation in Australia based largely on their involvement in motorsport. A lot of people I've met here remember that Mazda beat Porsche 4 years running at the Bathurst enduros and totally outclassed cars like the M3-R, NSX etc. Their sponsor at one stage (BP Visco) ran a great series of ads that pushed home the engine's reliability.

The same thing needs to be done here. For Australians it means more stuff like:
http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re...1/1999.MOUN.R4

-pete

While the fact that the engine held up during a 24 hour race is great, I think most people including me are interested in everyday longterm reliability. Myself I am a newbie wrt to rotary engines, I know the basics but before I did some research my impression was also "overheating/rebuild/gas guzzler". Now that I chose to educate myself more I know that's not exactly the case, especially for the na engines.

Unfortunately if Mazda whishes to sell these in large numbers they will have to adress the public perception issue with some kind of promotion/reliabilty advertising/extended warranty. Joe Public will not take the time to do Internet research like us.

Mazda's worst enemies will be other car dealers, who will trash the rotary if a prospective buyer is 'on the fence'. And for some reason known only to God, many people believe what a car salesman says.

I think Mazda should address this issue on their web site. A lot of people believe everything that's on the Internet too :)

Unfortunately the great uneducated masses out there speak louder than those of us who know and understand just how reliable the rotary engine is.

Mazda has to be careful not to overdo it of they were to go on and on about reliablility as some people might think they are trying too hard. Hopefully the car will do all of the talking necessary to convince those who are willing to listen

Unfortunately there are those who will always bag things out no matter what, and often it is disappointing that these people are the ones that some chooe to listen to.

I for one, think that anyone who is closed minded enough to listen to the fairy tales rather than the truth deserve to be denied the pleasure of owning a rotary powered vehicle.

I'd never try to convince anyone that the rotary is the best engine for everyone, but that comes down to the intended use of the vehicle, nothing to do with the reliability issues.

People seriously need to get over this unreliability thing and find something else better to talk about, especially those will absolutely no technical knowledge or actual experience with owning, racing or rebuilding a rotary engine.

khoney, that's very interesting that you precieve Australia as being more "rotary friendly" with the case of reliability... Dazz, do you too sence this??

just thinking out loud, but i guess that the reason that Americans (and Canadians too, 'cause we barely have a culture that we can call "our" own...) reject it immediately is because of resistance to new and different trends in automobiles... i mean, just look at the cars that sell!! the boomers still, for a large part, rule the market, and their influence trickles down to even people MY age, their idea of "cool" is somehow nostaligic for some young too...
so, the cars with historic nameplates sell very well (for the most part), regardless of how good or bad a car is...
ALSO!! look at the way Americans like their engines... just as a matter of fact, they intensely dislike change in this department. they want it >4 litres, V8, PUSHROD for god's sake, all iron... etc. etc... well, that may be too much of a generalization, but it is fact that they wouldn't mind sticking with it if they at all could, for nostalgia's sake.
there are still critics of Ford's approach to the "modern" V 8 with overhead cams!! the Northstar (GM's overhead cam V8) is a very new concept for them!! now, imagine the enormous leap of faith it would take these same muscle-heads to accept the rotary...

yes yes, i know that these days practical wins out over "sport" in the American sence, but there are still more American style cars on the road than foreign marques, and not only by virtue of a lower price: if build and material quality matched the increase in price (matching it up with off-shores brands), American cars would dominate the road to an even greater exent today.

it's difficult to battle against a culture of conservatism: the American way is their own way, and don't like to follow others.

** PLEASE NOTE!! not bashing anything, simply stating what i observe...
except for push-rod valve actuation, there is no excuse for that. :P

Dazz

I understand were you might be coming from, but I'm afraid that there are more closed minded people out there [in regards to the rotary engine]. Along with the fact that Mazda is depending on the success of the RX-8, this car depends on the masses. I really hated it when Mazda stopped exporting the 3rd gen RX-7. Therefore, in a way those closed minded people that listened to the fairy tails inadvertently denied US the pleasure of owning other rotary powered cars. Mazda says if they have great success with the RX-8, we can see more rotary cars. I'm excited about that. Maybe a special Rotary Mazda6 and an 4th gen RX-7 will be in my garage, and maybe yours too. Spread the word, Rotary Engines = venerability

I think a big part of the problem is that most Americans drive automatics. A 4 banger with low torque/auto will not suffice so manufacturers are making 6's and 8's with gobs of torque so the cars "feel" powerful. Only selected engines like the Northstar, Ford modular are slowly beginning to buck the trend. Not until the price of gas goes up in NA will people start thinking about manuals, high performance 4 and 6 cylinder engines.

For me its quite the opposite. The allure of a different engine is what makes me want a rotary vehicle.

I think all cars are on equal footing in terms of reliabliltity. The only 2 factors that determine an unreliable car are....

1) a lemon, just unlucky.
2) owner maintenance. If yu take care of your car it will take care of you.

To me these apply to the same comment that domestics are less reliable than japenese cars. I do agree that mazda should make an effort to influence the less "non educated" car buyers.

Being a somewhat 'backyard mechanic' and having the experience of opening my 1974 13B for an overhaul while it was sitting in a wheelbarrow (in order to catch all the pieces that fall out), I can attest to the difference between the condition of a Mazda Rotary engine.

I have been Hot Rodding 1974 13B engines for over 20 years. Most engines I have overhauled have been considered 'Dead' by the previous owners.

Upon inspection, it was obvious that many did not follow the OEM book on caring for your Rotary. Usually oil related, they run them out of oil, or the inexperienced mechanics will flood the engine wil fuel, thus washing the seals to a dry condition and causing premature wear.

If it became common knowledge that you can pour a teaspoon of oil down each intake runner too keep the seals 'wet', I would bet that there would have been far less failures and horror stories.

I have done stock rebuilds all the way to a 275+hp turbocharged with secondary bridgeports and a Holley 670 TBI.

All have been very sweet running engines and virtually trouble free.

Participating in SCCA autocross events, my friends and competitors all had great respect and even some envy for my Rotary endevours.

I have only 'broken' one engine so far, thanks to trying some ether to start me up one winter day, That was the worst damage I have ever done to one of my engines; cracked the rear and intermediate housings on the combustion side :(

I have no doubt the new Renesis design will be a leap in reliability and power output and can safely say that Mazda is gonna 'raise the roof' once again!

This is interesting.. How often should you do this? Do you think this will be applicabble to the Renesis?
I really hope Mazda does promote this car better.. once it gets off the ground. I like the rotary concept and wish this car a huge success.

Pouring the teaspoon of oil in the intake is a logical step to starting ANY engine that has been washed by fuel.

I well tuned engine would rarely need this sort of treatment.

There have been occasions for me where a hard run of the engine would roast the sparkplugs. This promotes hard starting and pouring alot of fuel through the engine while trying to get it to fire. This escalates poor compression and things get worse. The oil metering pump will not put enough oil around the seals to make up for the lack of oil due to this washing.

It is OK to add oil this way if you know the seals have been washed. you could also add premix oil to the tank for assurance at tune-up time. Don't add too much however. 50 to 1 mix is fine if you are still using the oil meter in this case.

you made +275 bhp on a 13B turbo?? HOLY CRAP!! what was the redline on that mother??

** oops!! you SAID 13B!! :rolleyes: oh, and btw, what's the diff between the '74 13B's and the post '86 or whatever 13B's?? those old ones didn't have 6 port induction systems, did they??

In 1974 the 13B had the largest intake porting with 4 intake ports, not 6. A turbo version did not exist in production for that year. It was also pre RX7.

Building this engine took extensive porting with full Street porting on the primaries and what I call 'baby' bridgeports on the secondaries. Carbon apex seals and six grooves in all the water jacket passages around the combustion side make it cooler and higher revving to a 7500 redline, 8500 max. Though it has seen higher revs, I am not that insane to hold it there, the next gear is much more fun!

The Holley TBI is a two barrel set up. so each barrel feeds one rotor. All intake ports are open to the fuel. Idle is 1500, Boost comes on strong at 2500. The turbo is oil cooled and it was a trick to find the right place to tap oil from the engine to keep it lubricated without losing oil pressure.

Seeing that the Reneisis does nearly this without a turbo is very exciting to me. 450hp sounds like a reasonable goal using one of these!

450bhp?? woah... how much boost to you figure you'd need to pump that?? assuming that becuase of the materials used (there ceramic stuff in the exhaust ports or something... can't remember who said that on this forum, but obviously it'd crack if hit with a dremel or die-grinder) would limit the amount of porting you could do (which isn't such a big deal 'cause the ports are already enormous), and we'll just hope that the 9k redline wouldn't induce any knock at full-on boost...
can't do that math right now, just got up... :P
hmmm... i read in a magazine that an old 13BT (all the turbos only had 4 port, even the 13BREW i think) ported like crazy with 20 psi (that's 1.4 bar,) made something in the order of +500 hp... (redline at 8k)
that boost number sound about right to you??

I doubt that engine lasted very long.

In the 13B series your combustion was 180º before the exhaust opened. When you examine how the rotor pushes on the eccentric shaft you begin to see that you need to make the burn and expand extremely fast between say 20º ATDC and 160º ATDC.

In reality the highest mechanical advantage comes around 45º ATDC to around 235º ATDC. The Renesis design of exhaust porting takes full advantage of this fact. I would think that by retarding the ignition timing by 5º - 10º from the old school 20º BTDC MAX you could get the BANG to occur at the right time to get the most out of the engine. This is ideal for any kind of boosted engine.

My stated estimations are based on my own experience and are probably conservative since I would use a premium pump grade fuel (90 octane). Racing fuels like 105 octane would require more ignition advance than pump gas and then you push the fine lines of devastaion.

If a turbo renesis was produced, I suspect it would also have a similar 4 port intake unless they could control ports 5 and 6 electronically.
But, as I have seen, the 4 port arrangement is plenty for a boosted engine. Another thing I have observed is the larger the intake ports, the less boost you need. I only use 5-6 psi of boost for my race engine. If I had used 1982 housings (some of the smallest intake ports)from the factory , I am sure the boost required for the same effect would be around 10 - 12 psi.

If they were successful for a test run using 20 psi, I suspect also that the ports were rather mild. My power is limited by the TBI fuel delivery. It was designed to produce up to 300 hp when applied to a particular 350 cu.in. Chevrolet V-8. So I didn't expect to get any more from the race engine.:cool:

Reading through this post you'd think that no rotary in the last 20 years has had reliability problems. The 3rd gen RX-7 was one of the most unreliable cars I have ever seen. I doubt more than 10% made it to 100k miles without a new motor. Between the cracking vacuum lines, cracked exhuast manifolds, splitting turbo outlet pipes, exploding AST's, broken sway bar mounts, melting pre-cats it's amazing any are still around. Mazda needs to be very careful to not repeat what they did with the third gen. That is why we are waiting so long for this car. they are going to run it through the mill and then some. If mazda ends up with another problem ridden rotary it will take a long, long time to recover if ever.

The normally aspirated RX-7's were bullet proof in stock form, as long as they weren't overheated. In anything other than stock it's all up to how well the engine was tuned. A rotary is not as tolerant of tuning mistakes when modified. Many mistakes that people get away with all day long on a piston engine will kill a rotary in short order.

This is what I say when people ask me about the reliability of the rotary-

"If you leave it stock you can beat it relentlessly and not worry about it, If you modify it all bets are off"

Are you talking about modded 13B turbos or the NA models? I have heard rotaries are totally intolerant to detonation as well as the overheating issues plagued by most turbo'ed models. However, I would think simple bolt on's wouldn't be too risky for a NA rotary, would it? If I added a CAI, exhaust and maybe a quality ECU chip, how much risk/gain could I expect? If I gained 20-30HP from those mods I would probably be pretty happy. Anyone have experience with the older NA rotaries with those kinds of bolt ons?

MyT13B, you seem to have alot of experience with the older rotaries with heavy porting and more extreme mods, how about something a little less extreme?

RELIABILITY
 

I owned a 1984 13B RX-7 and put 155,000 miles on it without even a minor hitch. The car worked as well in the end when I sold it to when I first got it. One of the best cars I ever had in terms of reliability, not to mention the other benefits.
Reliability is not an issue, unless you work for the fearful competition!

NA is pretty hard to blow up but it can be done. None of the previous NA rotaries had any problems with Just exhaust and intakes. My 84 SE is on its fifth motor in six years :-( But all can be attributed to something else besides poor design.

Motor #1- hit a large puddle and ingested many gallons of water- blown motor
motor #2- Mechanic dropped a pebble into #2 injector hole blocking the injector. two months later blown motor
Motor #3- Blew a heater hose and motor overheated. Two months later the coolant o-rings went
Motor #4- I was very tired and stupid late one night before a race and shot nitrous into the motor when it wasn't running. Went to start it and BOOOOM.. blown motor
Motor #5- Getting it up and running right now

I hope mazda puts a mass air fuel injection system on this car. One of the reasons that the 3rd gens died with very small mods was that the ECU didn't measure actual air flow. It used a speed density system. All the previous years had used an air meter. So when you increased air flow through the motor the ECU idn't know. Things got lean and boom... blown motor. Well actually not boom. The death of a rotary is not very dramatic, it just runs really rough and has no power. It would be way cooler if flames shot out or something.

The other reliability problem I just thought of was all the damn rubber vacuum hoses on the rotaries in the past. They ALWAYS cracked and would give you nightmares trying to track down idling problems. I did notice in pictures of the renesis there are lots of steel lines. Hopefully these replaced the rubber lines on previous generations.

true banzairx7, the 13BREW wasn't really reliable, and that's 'cause of the fancy-pants sequential twin turbo system Mazda incorperated with that sucker.

i think that most of the people on this forum, however, aren't joe anybody "don't know nothing 'bout no rotaries", and take very good or at least very adequate care of their engines, and too most are NA (or at least were at one point ;))

and rextreme, i know that those are the three most typical and first mods any new school import tuner will do, but i really REALLY don't think you'll pick up 20 hp over stock with that. remember: the engineers at these aftermarket places are the guys who didn't make the grade to get into the factories...
the engineers at the factory, however, are obviously going to be the best and brightest. now, depending on application, these fellows will design the engine (and associated bits, like the exhaust, engine management computer, and intake system) for a certain application. look at the cars the new schoolers are modifying: economic grocery getters (like Civics... <<shudder>>) which've been engineered for a quiet, comfortable ride at a low cost of fuel and highly effective emissions control systems. the RX-8 isn't even close to that; mazda's not going to dick around with this thing, and produce it with 15 hp less than it could have to improve gas milage by 2 mpg, or to save cost to build by a few hundred dollars.
so the way this thing is coming from the factory will already be in a very high state of tune, and i really couldn't see you gaining anything noticable with those sorts of aftermarket mods, unless you were planning something MUCH bigger, like a big blower or turbo which would completely outstrip the OE in capacity to breathe (or in the case of engine management, be unable to relieve it of knock or keep it from drowning the engine)

My 1982 12A now has full street ports clear to the absolute limits on all 4 intakes. The exhaust ports were slightly enlarged.

The rotors have been chamfered near the side seals in the locations where the intake opening is controlled as the rotor passes by. The crank time you gain from street porting is about 30º. You then gain another 25º by chamfering the rotor. When you see how much larger the ports are using this method you raise a few eyebrows.
I always use the factory's special carbon apex seals, the don't last as long but they do far less damage if they fail. Cast iron apex seals do too much damage to the engines in my opinion in many ways, especially at high rpm.

I installed the engine with the factory accessories (carb, exhaust, smog stuff) and only made the primary carb jets one step bigger.

I also added a lightweight flywheel for quickness.

My fuel mileage went from 20 mpg to 27 mpg on the highway. The car now rockets to 5000 rpm and runs out of carburetor. The carb makes a good restrictor plate now.

An aftermarket intake and exhaust would make this engine capable of 200+ hp within the stock redline.

I have 40,000 miles on this one so far and it is sweet to drive. I would guess the stock 110 hp is now around 150 with a remarkable change in the torque output

Well, CAI/H/E with a good chip/fuel management sys. MAY get you 20HP at the wheels in an Integra GS-R, which came more tuned from the factory than, let's say, a Civic. Good tuners could even squeeze 20+ more HP in NA form from a 195HP type r with more radical treatments, but nothing too extensive.

Some of these guys working the aftermarket are actually very smart and they produce parts with the engineering knowledge of the motors they're building them for. I'm not talking about joke aftermarket parts from, let's say, APC or Tucan, but the folks at AEM, DC, Hondata, and I'm sure MAZDASPEED are intelligent people who research and apply they're products using good sound engineering sense.

In addition, I honestly believe that if Mazda can offer the RX-8 for a price we all hope for, they must have cut corners somewhere. Especially considering the amount probably spent in the engineering of this thing. This car is supposedly being mass produced to appeal to a large number people belonging to different markets. What's to say it's not going to be a little softer, quieter, or calmer than us hard core enthusiasts would like?

I'm not saying it's not going to be a great car, because I know it will be. What I'm saying is I have faith that they will leave a little room for the aftermarket to take advantage of.

On a race only exhaust I can see an easy 20hp on this car. The earlier NA cars gained 25-35 wheel hp with the RB header and dual exhausts.

My friends 83 12A had the stock exhaust manifold no cats and a magna flow muffler. He switched to the RB header and dual exhuast setup and went from 89hp to 116hp with no loss in torque anywhere. Rotaries love a free flowing exhaust!!!!

BTW- no honda every gained more than 7-8 HP with an exhaust. The typical intake/exhaust combo at most nets 10hp.

I've heard the RSX type s can gain close to 10 HP with a good intake alone. The ECU is being messed with by Hondata right now and they have unofficially mentioned substantial gains can be made in that department. Now, an exhaust by itself won't gain hardly $hit, but combo'd with a good CAI, header, and ECU you should be able to see 20 HP, easy.

I have never had a problem with any rotaries I have ever owned, BUT

When I have looked in my local autotrader over the years, I can't find an issue that doesn't have at least one post 1985 RX-7 being sold with a "new engine". This has always cast doubt in my mind about what Mazda did to hurt the reliability of the 13B after the first generation sevens; and then I have to give my head a shake and remind myself that many cars would have been abused or modified, or run by less than knowledgable owners.

But if somebody was just doing research on their own, and did not know rotaries, I would have to say that seeing so many used vehicles of a type advertising "new engine" would cast doubt in their mind about the reliability of something as unique as a rotary.