It's Time to Put the Synthetic vs Mineral Oil Burning Debate to Bed With Data
 

I've read through enough people's opinions about synthetic vs mineral oil - and I'm really tired of reading all of it without anyone being able to cite any actual data to back up their position. So I think its about time I try and see if I can make an actual contribution to this forum and the RX8 owners' experience.

I'm starting to think about doing the testing myself (would have to be "ex vivo" so to speak - since I don't have a spare engine to play with) using the equipment I have routine access to (ICP-AES, tandem MS-MS, GC-MS, viscometer etc) as well as calling in some supportive assistance from some close friends who are chemical engineers at large companies that make motor oils/motor oil additives.

As I am just in the planning stages right now - trying to figure out how feasible this would be and if my results would actually be worth anything - I call on the experienced rotor-heads to help me establish some basic information as to the conditions in our engines (temperatures, pressures, oil injection rates, etc - anything that I need to standardize my testing procedures to in order to simulate the conditions in the engine as close as possible) as well as any insight into what they have seen during engine rebuilds.

This very well may turn out to be out of the realm of my abilities, but I won't know until I collect some information and start to put some stuff together. So as of now, any and all information and suggestions are welcome. Hopefully, this could turn out to be beneficial to all of us....or I'll just end up wasting a lot of my time, either way you guys won't be affected adversely :yelrotflm.

subscribing for outcome

What data are you looking for and under what operating conditions?

this can be epic or a fail, ......subscribed

We can get you all the data you want.

Interpreting that data is a different animal.

my vote would be to test under 2 temps, say a cooler 65-75 F, and a hotter 110 F day, im talking outside temp and im am unaware of how that increases the internals and to what degrees

Its a noble thought, but oil makes little difference in this or any other automotive application. The only reason we beat it to death is its the least expensive thing we can do to our cars and is the most common maintenance item keeping it freshest in our minds. Also, the science in chemistry used is solid enough to effectively guess what is best/good enough.

Subbed for curiosity...

Me too. Hopefully someone will explain the tech side for us Dummies.:yelrotflm

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I don't know if I have anything to add or not but I am an aircraft maintenance statistical analyst. Essentially I analyze maintenance data and recommend changes to procedures and/or materials.

A few years ago I did a study on failures of a part that ensures that a generator turns at the same speed no matter what the engine is turning at. (Similar theory to a CV joint applied to a different use). There were failures happening at an alarming rate and it was due to improper procedures as the climate changes. I got pretty deep into the tech data but I came away with one genera conclusion.

It really doesn't matter what lubricant you use, synthetic or organic as long as you have adequate viscosity at the operating temperature.

I'm sure the oil injection system plays a part into this and has a few different dynamics but looking at suggested operating temperatures for the oil I really doubt it would make much difference what you use. If you change your oil regularly you should be fine.

That being said, I love any attempt at scientific discovery. If you want any help setting up an experiment let me know. I've PCSd since I did the study but I can try and look up some of the methods I used.

Mike

Mike....

don't confuse anyone with logic...

I know I can use the thread tools to sub
sub'd
interesting.

This debate/debacle over syn/dino etc is proof to all who read these post, that this is how the Human being is. Data smata. Data isn't the end all , its all mixed up with the Human politic and the corporations they work for. Ive made the decision to use syn oil for my own reasons and so should all. Data and a million more post on this beat to death subject won't prove any thing to any one. Don't let any one here lead you. Just read as many post as you can and get in touch with the corporations on all side and make a decision.


"Shit breaks".

Shouldn't that be "shmata"?

A parameter I don't see listed yet is "combustion residue in the exhaust port." There are two Mazda service notices that claim synthetic causes carbon buildup in the exhaust port. Not saying that's the answer - just saying it needs to be added to the datafication plan.

Ken

^that's a first, never heard that before.

su'b'b'b'b'b'b'd

sub'd

Very interest... continue

That's why an experiment should test dozens of different oils and see how fast they shear and how much viscosity\cst vary depending on the various system temperatures and pressures... It's not something really practical to do!

Most synthetics actually leave less deposits behind when compared to mineral oils... i find this pretty strange!

What kind of data are you looking for in this test? If you are looking for only shear strength/viscosity and how well the oil holds up under miles that has been proven over and over again in the UAO thread.

If you are looking for carbon build up and general engine wear data well... now that is far far from a easy test and would have to be conducted under very controlled conditions.

That being said I cant wait to see what you come up with. :)

Umm, not so fast. Turbines aren't recips and aircraft are not cars:

1) Virtually no forces in a turbine engine reverse direction during operation.

2) A/C engines are run mostly at steady load with little change in power output. The number of cold starts per operating hour are miniscule compared to a street car engine. Turbine engine oils are not exposed to combustion byproducts to any significant degree vs cars.

Replace "adequate viscosity" with "adequate properties" which includes a whole host of other factors. Pour 15W-50 oil into a stock Series I rotary and you'll significantly reduce oil flow compared to 5W-20 when the 70 psi bypass opens around ~4,000 rpm (or even at idle when the engine is cold.)

Short of a million dollar test program, the wide range of variables involved in street driving are likely to prevent getting "scientific-valid" results. Might learn something though.

I'm aware that the viscosity topics have been covered in detail. What I will be looking into is the chemical profile of the compounds produced by combustion of synthetic vs mineral oil and seeing if there is a statistically significant difference between the two. Like you stated, my tests will be under extremely limited conditions, so their relevance to carbon build up in the engine is limited and open to interpretation (hence why I'm still planning/trying to determine if I will be able to generate anything useful - or if I'll be validating analytical procedures until I'm blue in the face, only to end up with nothing of real value to show for all those hours and money spent).

But if it was easy someone else would have already done it :-)

Data shmata? Seriously, just go with your gut? Might as well go with the prettiest container. You're a moron. Data and scientific method are the only things that matter here, it's people like you that refused to believe that the Earth was round. But seriously, I'm intersted in the results. And make sure to include the buildup on the exhaust port.

you should quote the person you are referring to if it isn't directly adjacent to your post lol ... took me a bit to realize that you didn't just drop the most random statement in the world out there