|
Engine Braking - Not Recommended (if you arent rev matching)
What I've learned after replacing my clutch after only 65k miles (a clutch should last you at least 100k) is that cars and especially sports cars are fragile. Avoid driving them hard if you don't want expensive repairs in the long run. Until recently I have been a big proponent of engine braking. I liked the extra control and performance of being able to slow down my car very quickly. What I realized is that even though engine braking does save your brakes a bit, the consequences far outweigh the benefits when you consider the costs of replacement. A new clutch kit will cost you 350-$400 whereas new brake pads for all four wheels will be 200-$300. The biggest difference however, comes to the labor involved. A brake job takes a mechanic 1-2 hours of labor. Clutch installation takes 4-5 hours plus you need to get the flywheel refinished which is by itself about $100. When considering that nowadays most mechanics charge you close to $100 per hour of labor, the cost differences become very apparent.
In conclusion, be very nice to your clutch. Don't engine brake. |
Originally Posted by Strata-R
(Post 4478690)
What I've learned after replacing my clutch after only 65k miles (a clutch should last you at least 100k) is that cars and especially sports cars are fragile. Avoid driving them hard if you don't want expensive repairs in the long run. Until recently I have been a big proponent of engine braking. I liked the extra control and performance of being able to slow down my car very quickly. What I realized is that even though engine braking does save your brakes a bit, the consequences far outweigh the benefits when you consider the costs of replacement. A new clutch kit will cost you 350-$400 whereas new brake pads for all four wheels will be 200-$300. The biggest difference however, comes to the labor involved. A brake job takes a mechanic 1-2 hours of labor. Clutch installation takes 4-5 hours plus you need to get the flywheel refinished which is by itself about $100. When considering that nowadays most mechanics charge you close to $100 per hour of labor, the cost differences become very apparent.
In conclusion, be very nice to your clutch. Don't engine brake. Now it is quite the opposite. Brakes also can get gunked up if you dont use them. Engine braking can also be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. You can easily lose control of the car if you do it incorrectly. |
and why does engine braking kill your clutch prematurely unless you're slipping it excessively during downshifts?
there's nothing wrong with engine braking but i suppose it doesn't suit some people's driving style. if this is in regard solely to track use you should specify it in that section versus the general tech section, so as not to confuse people as i see many people overly conscious about things that don't affect them. |
there is a difference between driving the car hard and abuse.
if you are wearing clutch using engine braking, you need to learn the art of revmatching and heel and toe. these two techniques are must if you drive a manual, regardless sports car or normal car really. |
Originally Posted by jasonrxeight
(Post 4478695)
there is a difference between driving the car hard and abuse.
if you are wearing clutch using engine braking, you need to learn the art of revmatching and heel and toe. these two techniques are must if you drive a manual, regardless sports car or normal car really. |
Originally Posted by Karack
(Post 4478694)
and why does engine braking kill your clutch prematurely unless you're slipping it excessively during downshifts?
there's nothing wrong with engine braking but i suppose it doesn't suit some people's driving style. if this is in regard solely to track use you should specify it in that section versus the general tech section, so as not to confuse people as i see many people overly conscious about things that don't affect them. |
You should consider revising your position to engine braking with excessive downshifting, while not properly rev matching is hard on the clutch, and that it is more financially prudent to use the brakes.
Engine braking without excessive downshifting and with proper rev matching will have no effect on clutch life. |
Originally Posted by Strata-R
(Post 4478698)
heel and toe and engine braking are separate concepts.
|
Sorry if this is the wrong section but I didn't want to start a thread. Do you think the same goes for the auto and torque converter? I recently replaced my auto in my 8 and I have been engine braking for 20k miles on the old trans. I'm not sure if it sped the process of wrecking my front pump, however according to my cluster if the trans was original it had about 176k miles on it before it decided to shit the bed.
|
On the old clutch I did use rev-matching but not with the accelerator pedal. I used a combination of brake pedal and a slight depression of the clutch. I'd put the car into 3rd or 2nd gear (which I noticed provided the optimal engine deceleration) based on engine speed and solely rev-matched with the clutch itself. The result was significant deceleration. I would say I used 2/3rd brake to slow down, 1/3 engine braking. The sound the engine made was epic as well, it sounded like a jet engine right before it is shut off. I used to only rev-match w accelerator while trying to accelerate quickly out of corners. Both techniques I performed smoothly, the car didn't jolt or anything.
|
Originally Posted by Strata-R
(Post 4478738)
On the old clutch I did use rev-matching but not with the accelerator pedal. I used a combination of brake pedal and a slight depression of the clutch. I'd put the car into 3rd or 2nd gear (which I noticed provided the optimal engine deceleration) based on engine speed and solely rev-matched with the clutch itself. The result was significant deceleration.
As some other posters have said, you should rev-match by blipping the throttle. |
Originally Posted by Strata-R
(Post 4478690)
especially sports cars are fragile.
|
Lesson learnt. Brakes are cheaper and as was said you are actually wearing out the clutch each time by excessively using it to match revs. Not a great idea for longevity. Find a track near you and do a track day with lessons. Great fun AND you learn a lot. Cheers.
|
You might want to read this and correct some of your misunderstandings about engine braking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_braking
Most notably for your scenario: Using frequent engine braking while changing down gears may cause higher than normal wear on clutch plates if the driver uses the poor gear-changing technique of slipping the clutch to raise the engine's rpm to match the transmission speed, instead of rev-matching using the throttle. |
Wikipedia is full of more useless information then this thread is.
|
This sounds like an isolated case where a specific drivers' technique has cause premature wear .
There is no way i will ever stop using engine braking in general driving and to do so because of the OPs' post is just ......................silly. |
I engine brake all the time with mine and track it extensively. Has about 103k miles on it and the clutch is still fine. Going to replace it anyways while I have the motor out but it looks fine as well.
Sounds like you just need to learn how to drive better to be honest. |
i engine brake as well all the time. 93k on my clutch. and it still looked great when i had visable at 92k miles on car lol. need to drive better mate :)
|
Originally Posted by Strata-R
(Post 4478690)
What I realized is that even though engine braking does save your brakes a bit, the consequences far outweigh the benefits when you consider the costs of replacement.
|
One simple way to figure out the correct answer:
If you are in 2nd gear at 50mph, and let off the gas, are you engine braking? Yes. Have you magically caused clutch wear? No. Clutch wear is ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY from when the clutch is transitioning between disengaged and engaged AND there is a speed difference between the flywheel and the pressure plate. No speed difference and there is NO clutch wear. Period. Did you know that you can even shift up or down without using the clutch at all? How would this cause clutch wear? You can accomplish excessive clutch wear without engine braking at all. In fact, normal proper driving nearly all clutch wear will come from starting from stopped. Have you addressed that yet? Such a misunderstood subject... :icon_no2: |
finally....
|
Originally Posted by Strata-R
(Post 4478738)
On the old clutch I did use rev-matching but not with the accelerator pedal. I used a combination of brake pedal and a slight depression of the clutch. I'd put the car into 3rd or 2nd gear (which I noticed provided the optimal engine deceleration) based on engine speed and solely rev-matched with the clutch itself. The result was significant deceleration. I would say I used 2/3rd brake to slow down, 1/3 engine braking. The sound the engine made was epic as well, it sounded like a jet engine right before it is shut off. I used to only rev-match w accelerator while trying to accelerate quickly out of corners. Both techniques I performed smoothly, the car didn't jolt or anything.
|
so basically OP just throw in lower gear let the rpm drop then ride the clutch when engine idling to slow the car down? lmao. that's a first.
|
Originally Posted by jasonrxeight
(Post 4479563)
that's a first.
|
Originally Posted by RIWWP
(Post 4478823)
One simple way to figure out the correct answer:
If you are in 2nd gear at 50mph, and let off the gas, are you engine braking? Yes. Have you magically caused clutch wear? No. Clutch wear is ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY from when the clutch is transitioning between disengaged and engaged AND there is a speed difference between the flywheel and the pressure plate. No speed difference and there is NO clutch wear. Period. Did you know that you can even shift up or down without using the clutch at all? How would this cause clutch wear? You can accomplish excessive clutch wear without engine braking at all. In fact, normal proper driving nearly all clutch wear will come from starting from stopped. Have you addressed that yet? Such a misunderstood subject... :icon_no2: The most logical answer:icon_tup: |
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:12 AM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands