shaunv74

^^Glad to hear it because you sure don't have any class the rest of the time...

Skinless, I may be able to do the 26th. Gotta see when Mom is going to be leaving town.

kristopher_d

Who needs class when you got style?

shaunv74

I would agree your CAR has style...as for the rest.

kristopher_d

shaunv74

Just kidding. How was the Proformance driving session?

kristopher_d

Well, it was the IRDC school, and honestly, for me, it was a $250 ticket to allow me on the track for lapping days. The "School Line" has been out-dated, slow, and in my opinion, dangerous, for 30 years. I had trouble making their apexes 'cause I couldn't break my trail-braking habit. Every time I tried to get on their line, it got sloppy and my instructor got nervous.

I will say, braking from 127 and turning in at 100 while trailing off the brakes to 73 in Turn 2 was a bit exciting. Nailed the apex approached 3A at around 103-105, down to about 50 through 3A and 3B, and back on the gas hard. I think I'd have gotten turn 4 just fine if it weren't for the damned cones in my way trying to demonstrate the "school line," but being to forced too far left and braking from 97 or so was unsettling the suspension, making the turn in to 5 a bit rough and leaving me too low in the revs for 6. I don't think I ever got a clean run at 8, there was always somebody braking way to early and turning in way to soft in front of me. Of course, I was breaking the rules and diving in way deeper than the Chief Instructor wanted, but trying to unlearn a method I've nearly perfected which allows me to rotate the car faster wasn't really an option. I was also getting on the throttle harder and sooner than they wanted, but I'd rather drift out to corner exit, than drive out there with plenty of spare grip. I think turn 8 is good for about 70, maybe 75 in my current trim. If I can apex at 75 that'll make it a 3rd gear turn, which means no blown upshift at the turn 9 hump, and maybe a brief foray into 5th just before turn 2 turn in. I'm pretty sure, on these tires with just the little suspension work I've done so far, 130+ is doable at the end of the 9-10-1 series.

I had fun, but there's no way in hell I'm ever trying to drive their line again.

So, is there a consensus for the next track day, 'cause if I can swing the time off and the funds, I'm in, as long as corner entry isn't littered school cones.

I'll also say, I'm fairly certain than NO ONE else in the class had ever read a Race/High Performance Driving Book, so I was testing out new lines as much as the cones allowed (dragging a little gravel onto the track at turn 6, sorry).

Skinless

Are you still booked for the month? There's the Alfa day on the 26th (not sure how much room they have). Shaun, you still think you can make this one? If that doesn't work there's a Speedware day August 9th.

I'm not sure what line the IRDC school teaches. The BMW website has a pretty good turn by turn guide for Pacific Raceways. Check it out here:

http://www.bmwpugetsound.com/pr_track_notes.pdf

I agree with most of this. The one place I strongly disagree is the line through 8 (using their numbering - seems like everybody's is different). The line they specify would be correct in a car with a lot of horsepower, but it itsn't necessary to make the apex so late in our car. If you apex a little earlier you'll have to enter 9 a little more to the right, but in the RX-8 you aren't going fast enough yet for it to slow you down. You'll notice on track days that everybody is apexing very late (which is taught) and you'll have to hold back to keep from passing them on the right (usually not allowed) if you apex a little earlier and let the car drift out some. Hopefully at least a few of us can make this track day.

shaunv74

Gotta see if Mom would want to come to the track for the day. She's going to be out here for that week. As long as she doesn't mind I'll be in. I'm definitely looking to blow off a little steam after I'm done with that Bastard Harry Potter!!

kristopher_d

I do need to make one caveat an earlier comment. I only say it seems that no one else has read an HPD book because of the way most people were eating up the "tires can only do one thing at a time" comment and others of similar BSitude.

I'll see if I can get that day off. My boss' wife is due with their first child this Friday, so things may be a bit dicey trying to get a day off.

Yeah, I'm sure the turn 8 apex is right for the likes of a viper or Corvette, etc. But my instructor kept hounding me to turn in later, so making a compromise between what I thought to be right and his direction had me trying to grab third while bouncing over the hump at turn 9 entry. That's another thing that bugged me. They were constantly telling us to drive to turn exit. What the hell? I have a half dozen books that all say DON'T DRIVE TO TURN EXIT, if you have to drive it out there, you're either not going fast enough, or that's not your turn exit.

Sorry, had to decompress a bit. I still think that if I can nail turn 8 I'll be able to get somewhere between 130 and 135 by my brake point for turn 2. I love how much these cars want to be tossed about. The only stuff out there I got passed by was the really high horse power stuff (race prepped Viper etc) and they were doing it all on the straights. They were just able to do a HELL of a LOT on the straights.

124Spider

The school line, for all schools, is a mix of the "right" line and the safest line. In particular, turn 9 is no place to lose it (that's the high speed right turn onto the front straight), since you likely will end up face into the wall to track right if you do. So all schools tell you (i) short shift to fourth before you turn into 9, and (ii) get your car over the "7" approaching 9. Those two will make 9 a much, much safer turn, to the benefit of everyone at a school/track day. In order to get the car far enough to the left to hit the "7", it is necessary to late apex 8; that's the reasoning behind the school line there. Refusal to obey that rule typically will get you sent home.

It's interesting to watch racers around 8 and through 9. In my Spec Miata, I early apex 8, and track out all the way to the entrance road on track right, full on throttle the whole way, and don't even pretend to get very far left. And I shift at around the apex of turn 9. That works for a properly set up racing Miata, but not for a street car with more power; for instance, I would not have been comfortable doing the same line through 9 in my S2000, nor would I want to do it in my RX-8. The Corvettes in races shut down around 8, hugging the inside; once around the turn, they floor it, and off they go; a completely different line from the Miatas.

But school lines exist for the common benefit. They sometimes are annoying (I don't like a gate on track right into turn 2 or track left into 5A, for instance), but they make the day safer for all participants. If you really bridle at following the school rules/lines, get a racing license and a race car.

kristopher_d

Well hell, if the cones are going to be in the track on a lapping day to, I'll stick to the streets where its safer. The gate for turn 5 was just plain dangerously left, and I suspect the cones for "the line" would have cause more than a small scratch if I'd tried a truly safe line.

Like I said though, $250 so I can go out on the track for lapping days. Unfortunately, the moment they started talking technique and giving advice that has been admonished consistently for the last 30 years I lowered my expectations for learning potential. I know what the track looks like now, so I guess that's an added benefit.

124Spider

With all due respect, Kristopher, your attitude is such that I would not want to be on the track with you, racing or lapping. How much track experience do you hace that you feel so smug about trashing the school lines that everyone uses?

The gate to turn 5 is not "dangerously left." It is in the right place for most cars, and certainly in the right place for lappers, to force them to line up to brake in a straight line. The cones are set up to be at the safest place, not the racing line (although the racing line for most cars isn't all that different from the school line, in most places).

There are sometimes faster ways around a track than the school lines. But there aren't safer ways, for those who are looking to learn to drive better and have fun. For those who already think they know it all, there are no safe lines, however.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

^^ I agree.....the idea is to have fun...and get home in one piece...

kristopher_d

I don't think I know it all, but I do know my car. Yes, I'm sure for braking in a straight line the gate is fine. I haven't braked in a straight line in years, and have no intention of returning to a braking method that results in slower rotation and has been universally condemned as a bad habit to develop by the fastest people on the planet for the past 30 years. Were it not for the spring and shock upgrades I made, I would not trail brake nearly as deep, and the school line wouldn't have bugged me as much. In my 8, though, I've got suspension to spare and would prefer to use it, getting over sooner for 5, rotating a little sharper, feeding in opposite lock and rotating back around for 6 so I can stand on the throttle deep into the turn 8 approach.

The only places I was even working the tires were the turn 2 and 8 exits.

I will readily admit that I have more to learn about the track and how the car feels at the limits. While this was my first track experience, I have considerably more HPD training than the average First Timer. Try more than 10 years of instruction from a former professional race driver, and more than 120,000 HPD miles under my belt. I'm not saying my line is the right one for everyone, and given the complete disregard for the traction circle, the gates made sense for the school. But if track is made narrower by cones on lapping days, that's just plain bad. Using the tires to "do one thing at a time" is a backwards step that makes no sense for me. I certainly don't want pay upwards of $200 and more to be prevented from seeking out the limits of both my car and myself. All of my training has been based on the idea that brakes aren't there to slow the car, their there to help you go faster.

I certainly don't intend to argue the point here. I kept well back from other cars, and will do so at any future track events I attend. I never came close to punting my car. I'm simply of the opinion that the line proscribed by this school was forcing me off the line that is smoothest for this combination of car and driver. And since smooth is safe and fast, anything that forces me away from smooth is by definition slow and dangerous. That may be a stretch, but not much of one.

Maybe next year I will buy a race car and go racing. Maybe not. One prevalent attitude I take issue with is the idea that one should never drive quickly on the street. It's more of the same "Speed Kills" BS. If speed were a killer, I'd've died long long ago. Irresponsibility and lack of judgment kill. Driving beyond the limits of car and/or driver would fall into that category. But if anyone expects me to tow the company line and tell people to save their quick driving for the track, they'll be sorely disappointed in me. I'll use the track to fine tune and hone my driving, but I'm not going to make it my only playground.

124Spider

Quod erat demonstrandum. Your first track day, and you feel perfectly comfortable arrogantly trashing everything you saw and heard from instructors, and the school. Wow.

Kindly warn me when you will be attending a track event or race, so that I can stay away. And if (as seems apparent) you think that the public roads are good places to play, please warn me when you're going to be driving, as you live uncomfortably close to me.

If the "only places [you were] working the tires were the turn 2 and 8 exits," then you have only to look at your driving, not the school. This track is well known as being extremely hard on tires, even following the school line. It is quite easy to give tires all they can manage throughout turns 2, 3a, 3b, 5b, 6, 8 and 9.

It is often the case in performance driving that the nut behind the wheel is the biggest problem. An attitude like yours makes you unsafe at any speed....

kristopher_d

This is my last post on in this thread. But here we have it. A track snob.

If you haven't seen me drive, you're not qualified to comment on my driving.

"Kristopher knows the capabilities of his car VERY well" on my eval sheet "and needs only mileage(lapping) to find the line." I'd agree 100%. But my line wont be the school line because I trail brake and accelerate off apex. I'd trust the teachings of those paid enough to drive cars that they can moor yachts in the Monaco harbor over most others.

124Spider

To paraphrase a line from my favorite movie: It's not your driving, Kris; it's your attitude. You may not like your instructors and fellow drivers; they may not like you, but you're in it together.

As long as you're that arrogant, you're a danger to those with whom you share the track. That has nothing to do with being a "track snob." It has everything to do with attidude and maturity.

Skinless

Wow, easy guys. Why is it that forum discussions so easily turn into arguments? Anyway, 124spider, I really don't think you'd have an issue with Kris's driving if you were on the track with him. He knows the limits of his car pretty well and he's not trying to race anybody or make for a dangerous environment. And Kris, I think you could probably learn a lot more than you think by following the school lines and the instructor's input for a while. You don't have to take it as gospel, but keeping an open mind with instructor input certainly won't hurt.

At any rate, the Alfa track days are run pretty well. They don't force you into a specific line on the track. They won't put up with people being idiots out there, but they allow you to choose your lines and push your car as long as you aren't being dangerous. You'll have to have an instructor ride with you, at least for the first couple of sessions, but that's a good thing. My instructor supported apexing earlier in turn 8 rather than take the very late apex that's usually taught.

So, anybody up for a track day?

124Spider

Thanks, Skinless. Good words.

Once a good instructor is confortable with a driver's attitude and skills, they'll work with you to find what works best for you and your car. I enjoyed going through that process as a student (where very conservative instructors were happy to suggest other lines to me), but I can attest (as a sometime instructor) that a student has to earn that, with good, predictable driving skills, and by showing that he/she makes good decisions and has an open mind.

The Alfa days are well run, and they are quite liberal. And they usually have four run groups, grouped by skill level, which allows anyone to find the right level. Their principal concerns for putting someone in the top group are skill, track awareness and manners, not speed.

All that said, I almost never do track days any more; race weekends get me all the track time I want, and lapping days don't give either the excitement of racing or the opportunity to work on driving/setup that an open test day does. But of all local track days, Proformance and Alfa are my favorites.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Kris...next track day give me a buzz...I have something to throw in you car that you might like......It may surprise you with the results

kristopher_d

Okay, I was going to be good and stay out of the thread.

As I explained to 124Spider via PM, I was a bit frustrated with my tight-lipped instructor and should have taken some time to cool down. Believe me, I was very much looking forward to getting advice on my technique. All I got was a "you're missing the apex." When I'd ask if he thought I was turning in too early, or late, or just not enough, my instructor just sort of sat there.

So I apologize to anyone my attitude may have offended. It took me too long to figure out my instructor and I weren't a good fit, and that sort of soured the punch.

Dan, I'll definitely do that. I've got stainless brake & clutch lines and AFE Shifter inbound, hopefully next week. Part outs are working rather well for me.

shaunv74

I'm officially out on the track day. I just brought in my car for hard starting when it's warm and Umazda said they're going to replace the engine.

And she runs so good too...

I'll have to break it in before I can track it. Looks like I'll be shopping for a new clutch and PP. I might as well have them throw them on since the engine will be out of the car.

Skinless

Ouch, that sucks. Any idea when you'll be getting it back and breaking it in? There's a track day on the 9th I think. Sorry to hear about the engine.

I think I'm probably out for next week as well. I e-mailed the organizer for the Alfa track days on Monday and still haven't heard back. It's getting to be kinda short notice for work.

kristopher_d

Well between my boss' situation and a co-worker getting hitched, our shop is already going to be short handed. I'm not getting that day off.

Damn, what's up with the latest round of failed engines and trannies? I know you drive yours in a proper manner, Shaun.

jisoo26

You guys are making me leery. I'm glad my engine hasn't given me any grief so far *knocks on wood*. I just have that marbles in a blender issue to deal with, gotta take it in sooner or later for that.