Hell I'm finding 500 hard enough to deal with.

Went out the other day to test the 5 speed...and anything over 5K it felt like the clutch was slipping....7C..so kinda cool....

Turned out it was just spinning my 275 series R comp rear tires :evil_laug

What would you suggest at anywhere close to the price of admission?

Watch what you say, bragging about the power of your REW swap upsets the natives.... :sad:

NAILED IT !!!!!!!!! :worship:

C5Z06, C6GS, Evo VIII-IX come immediately to mind. I love LS engines... in Corvettes... you can buy a clean C5Z for pennies on the dollar now. A clean Evo is harder to find, but if you can find one, $1000 in bolt-ons and a tune will net you 330 whp, and 300+ wtq on stock turbo/cams and 93. I'm biased as hell, but I had a turbo RX-8 making 12 psi daily for a year, and even when I finally got it running "correctly" it was slow as hell compared to my stock turbo Evo.

When I took the turbo kit off the RX-8 I actually liked it more, and there are days I regret selling it as having a good handling slow street car can be great fun. My Evo is a pure track car now.

My personal experience is that trying to make the car something it isn't is an expensive and frustrating experience... like ramming a square peg into a round hole. With enough force you can make it work, but why? I considered doing a 20B swap into my RX-8 too, but the cost for the swap was more than a clean Evo. I have had the Evo for 5 years now and it remains the favorite car I've ever driven, let alone owned. I'm actually bummed I can't drive it more often.

^Unless you want real major horse power!!!

Turbo Renesis = Fools gold!!!

All that work (not that you built the car but still) and barely being able to hang with even a stock Mustang GT or Camaro SS/1LE/etc = wek sos.

It obviously wasn't running "correctly" as there is no way on this earth any STOCK evo would hold a candle to an 8 running 12psi of boost !

This @ 10psi.

That was 4-5 years ago now i think. Our definition of "correct" has changed. At the time 300whp was a struggle because very few people had a grasp of what was going wrong with general setups.

Firecran, What kind of power are you making?

Don't get him started !!! LOL

I think about 6 to match one .............. 12 and he wont be able to read my number plate through third.

"Real Major Horsepower" brah. Like 2005 Corvette levels and shit.

I said stock turbo, not stock. My stock turbo/cams Evo was making 330 whp Dynapak vs. my RX-8 at 330 whp Mustang, but the Evo was over 300 wtq and the RX-8 wasn't even close. The RX-8 was slooooow. That's in a straight line... in the corners it was even less fair. With my current setup with no undertray, diffuser, or skirts, I regularly hit sustained 2g's laterally in the Evo.

I was one of the first people to have a 300 whp+ RX-8, one of the few people to run a turbo RX-8 without ever blowing a motor despite over a year of daily use, and in my experience trying to make an RX-8 a fast car is a waste of time and money.

Before the inevitable comments about how I did it wrong and my car sucked and you all do it so much better; your mileage may vary.

LOL...
That's right I bought my car and for a fraction of what you've got into your craptasitc Renesis build! :wiggle:
Been enjoying the shit outta my REW swap for over 3 years now.

Don't be so butt hurt!

And times, I'm not worried about that.
I was only on 12psi. There's more in the car!
Remember it's fast, not quick.

no but seriously...how much power are you making?

So butt hurt are we!
Have you ran your Turdbo Renesis at the track yet?
The way you talk and with a 10,000 page build thread surely it's seen some type of track time?:sad:

Once again, I tend to disagree with the term 'slow'.
The stock RX8 may not be as fast as many, and though I've never done it, uncompetitive at the track, I still find it plenty fast for my taste as a DD.
Throw in the fact that the ride, handling, and quiet cabin, with the amenities available at such good prices now, and I don't consider it slow.
Imho, the swaps ruin the total package.
While I'm sure more power and speed are great, I like it just the way it is, and the extra expense and time involved don't justify it in my case.

However, if I was 20 years younger with more free time, energy, and disposable income, I'm sure it would be fun to try.:)

"Slow" vs "Fast" is a matter of subjective perspective :)

An 8 felt really fast compared to my Protege5
But it feels slow compared to my MSM.

Still, you illustrate the points where the RX-8 shines. It's a GT car that also happens to be one of the best handling chassis out there. Swaps, forced induction, etc... all move away from that definition to something else. If all you want is a GT car, then yeah, there doesn't seem to be value in power adders. But if you want something faster, your choices are another car or a whole lot of money to make the car something it isn't. You might achieve what you want in the end (most don't), but it definitely won't be the same GT car that it was.

Ah ...so you did . My apologies .
You might be right re the torque ............... but as you said YMMV.

I can see the appeal of trying to swap a faster and more powerful engine into an 8, it's a nice looking, semi-practical design for a sports car.

I respect those who put time and effort into their automobiles out of enjoyment and enthusiasm for things mechanical, beats vegging out in front of a monitor playing video games.

It's the attitude of many of the 'experts' on swaps that the 8 is an unreliable piece of junk and can only be made better with a piston engine that bugs me.

I am not opposed to people trying to make them faster either.
I would like to see what the new BHR header could do for mine.
But that's a one time, bolt on performance enhancer that may take an afternoon, doesn't alter the integrity of the design, and then it's done.

This is the whole point .... The car looks good and handles well already ...So it's got two of the most important automotive features covered ....... it just need moar powa ! So it's worth the time and effort to get that.
The EVO(for example) on the other hand , has power and handling but........ looks like a Lancer with a wing and always will .... "aint nobody got time for dat" !!!!

Different horses different courses.

BUT, I think NA Ported full billet alloy 20b running on straight LPG would be a pretty good option. 3rotors potentially will be more reliable than 2. U don't have to wring it's neck to make good power which equates to longer life.

I wanted BIG shit my pants kinda power as I have been dreaming of a 20b for a long time, but trying to fit that huge turbo n all the plumbing is a right pain in the arse.

That being said, I believe if mazda had put turbo on Rene we wouldn't be having the carbon issues we see. If I wasn't so hell bent on a 20bT conversion I woulda definitely gone turbo Rene - but not a bolt on kit n hope for the best. Do it right, rebuilt, strengthened, T- rotors and quality seals. Then u still got the lightweight engine to keep the great handling of rx8

Is there an easily understandable source for a neophyte like myself that details the differences of the various incarnations of the rotaries that everyone is talking about?
Or if someone has already done a thread like this, perhaps a link?
I would like to know more about what y'all are talking about.:)

If Mazda had gone with any other fuel other than gasoline we wouldn't have the carbon issues :) Diesel has a lot going for it, being stronger in the engine's weak points, and diesel is an oil so no more oil injection needed. Any of the alcohols would work too though, since they clean pretty well. Might have lubrication problems though, since it would also be cleaning the injected oil film.

I can send you a PM if you would like. I don't know of a single source for everything.

I'll just do some research, thanks.

^Here you go. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Wankel_engine

. Its hard to sell a Rex with a blown motor also like you said great handle ing great areo just low power and reliability soooo swap is the awenser

RX-8s don't sell for much regardless. I know, I've sold two. Putting in a min-cost rebuild engine and selling is still far cheaper than trying to swap. The cost to do so is prohibitive unless you are doing all the labor yourself and cutting massive corners in parts. I don't view things like emissions as required in a street car, but I don't consider a car with a lit up dash full of lights, no traction control, spotty electronics etc to be viable, and far too many swaps in this car end up that way if they even get that far.

I agree with RIWWP, the car is a fantastic GT cruiser and doesn't need a swap or FI for that role. If I had been less disgusted with the chassis I would have kept one of my RX-8s just to putter around in, but at the time I was still trying to drive a caged 500+ whp car on the street... so... :sad:

RE Brettus: The looks... I agree the Evo looks are polarizing, I've always loved them, but some people cannot stand how the car looks. Just a matter of individual taste, no harm in that. :icon_tup:

first off evo 7,8,9 beautiful machines, Inessa Tushkanova had an 8 or 9 with a 10 front end convertion lol,,,

all considered I bought my GT 6speed for 2700 on the road,,, a 04-06 with a new engine and decent body will go for $10,000-$14,000 in Toronto/GTA,, I figured people like the car hate the motor rebuilding,,,,, so $2,700 + $5000 for the swap I'd be in for around $7,700 and have an asking price of $15,000 claiming, 300hp 260tq, twin turbo and -reliability- then take the first $12,000-$13,000 offered..... :/


and regarding the build I will be doing everything myself 100% I have a machinist who will make me specific parts that I cannot and I will be doing all the cutting and welding to fit the engine 100%,, after the "fitment" is complete the water hoses, vac lines, and electrical will go in, (1jz harness/ecu) then the Rx-8 harness/ecu for the cluster and thing's like abs and electric steering rack, the rest will be cut off and re wrapped, using as much OEM equipment as possible i have my ohm meter/tester and nothing but time, to sort out the electrical issues I have legitimately thought this out despite my attitude I also enjoy being a little sh*t.. for every hour of labor I do 2-3 hours of research and collecting different opinions from a couple of friends and neighbors.

on actually slightly behind scheduled the motor should have be "fitted" 3 weeks ago but i was slacking,, mount will be done for this up coming week mon/tuesday

I won't hold my breath.

I held back from some other comments, but this just seems like too much fun.

I understand my standards for a swap are high, but here we go..

Ill break it down super quick. We can start with the motor. Realistically, used and needs a rebuild. Most cost effective is a not blown motor, around 2k.
Rebuild kit at 1g reasonably.
Single turbo at 500.
ECU at 1k.
We will just say you can get a downpipe, BOV, and wastegate for 500.

There's $5,000. No tune, no installation, no lines, pipes, fuel system, custom wiring harness, etc.

If it was only 5 grand, everyone would do it. Even if it was only that much, I would still pay for quality, shiny nice parts and good custom work. IMHO cars are one of the things in the world where spending more money usually gets you a better result.

This is a swap thread. Not bolting on a turbo thread. Anyone can bolt on a turbo. No real skill required for that. He'll even a 20B is a been there done that. With that said Id be willing to bet titles that a 20B weighs more than an LS motor (aluminum) and just as far forward.

he is talking about a swap..

beers

That was in response for the 9krpm guy.

might quote him then it gets confusing. :)

beers :beer:

break down as of what I spent so far

1jzgte with under $60,000mi with harness with ecu with alternator no starter motor,,,,, $1000 cash

tranny adapter i spent $500 all in

motor come with twing ct12a's and 10psi wategates...

down pipe / y pipe $300 obx

inter cooler piping pipe bender $100 on kijiji 6ft of 2.5" aluminum pipe $130 silicon cupling $50

starter motor $50cash (importer)

clutch kit 1jz flywheel 1jz pressure plate rx-8 clutch $150 reusing rx-8 clutch as it had a lot of meat on it,,,

vacuum lines and coolant hoses fuel hose from spool $50

fuel return line steel $25

rear sump oil pan (unknown expense) $300

engine mount and fabricated tranny mount $80

fluids $100

BOV $100

gages $300 boost, oil temp, oil pressure



re-use rx-8 electric steering rack
re-use rx-8 drive shaft
re-use rx-8 6speed (will rebuild next season)
re-use rx-8 harness and tranny speed sensor and crank sensor with fabed braket
re-use the front mount from my 95 240sx


and I have done all the labor myself except for the machining of my adapter and my custom pilot bearing ($500 as stated above)


so that actually adds up to $3000, without paying myself now throw $2000 on top for what i missed or more hidden expenses

Attachment 220310

my girl sitting in the Rex waiting for me and my younger brother(drives civic) to slide the motor in ;)


Attachment 220309

I gotta make a rad support / intercooler support, $100 steel

the car itself was $2700 tax in with about 2 months of life in it

I thought we were discussing an REW build, but I will humor everyone and move the argument to your build. I believe those hidden costs will add up to more 2000, but that can be skewed. For example, I did not own a 54mm socket to remove the flywheel on my 13brew (which was around 20 dollars + the 8 dollar adapter), but I do not charge that to my build. In the end, that is an expense for that project specifically. When you ignore labor costs AND tool costs, you obviously get a lower number than other people because they are being more upfront about the money. Its always better to quote out of pocket rather than raw parts cost. Quality of parts is also ignored. I am not doubting your work, but it is likely a welding professional will do a better job.

The trans. is really a whole beast in itself. Believe me I wish you were right and it could easily be rebuilt, but that fact is that the demand for that market is so small that most end up swapping out transmissions, leaving no real rebuild potential over another stock unit. That is what my research has told me. That ends up being a large hidden expense. There is a large list of other things missing as well. I'm sure you don't need me to spit all the parts I think you will need, but if you want me to I can type up a little list.

Other parts are largely skewed as well. Honestly, to the average enthusiast it seems like you are cutting corners with quality and just quoting the cheapest prices. I don't know what you are getting prices in particular, so take it with a grain of salt, but it seems like you may be cutting corners and I do not find it wise to under-engineer a build that is so custom anyway.

What about horizontally? What about the 20B needing 1 less turbo? I would also bet the 20B is easier to seat father back (less firewall cutting). But yes it does mess up stock geometry. The 20b also has piping in (generally) in the right places, meaning less is needed compared to swapping an ls in. Im no Mech-E, but id bet the torsional and vibration oriented forces of the 20b distribute throughout the frame better than an LSX motor. Just food for thought!

Yeah, there is a lot of stuff he is still missing from that cost list. Two major items that are obvious omissions in his list. He will find it all eventually though, assuming he has enough persistence to keep throwing money at the problems well past his budget. That and when stuff keeps breaking because of his cut corners, he will start repeating the costs until he finally decides to do it right.

You can't really include labour costs when doing the work yourself,that's why we do it to save $$$.

I don't think any of us are including labor costs in our arguments.

As I stated previously in the thread, it's a $17,000 parts-only list of parts already produced and fabricated ... plus engine plus harness for a complete LS swap into a 1990-2005 Miata. What about that swap is more complicated or more expensive than swapping the same drivetrain into an RX-8?

The RX-8 doesn't have the R+D, doesn't have the custom stuff fabricated and available off the shelf, the Miata doesn't have the electronics problems the RX-8 has, etc...

I logically can not fathom a reason why someone thinks that it would be a cheaper parts list for an RX-8, except fingers in the ears or head in the sand. It's like you are saying "That professional team doesn't know what they are doing! I can do it with a tig welder and duct tape! I don't need all those other parts and solutions solved!"

I'd very much like one of the swap guys to articulate why they think the RX-8's swap is easier...

Sure it's wider but ive looked at 20B swaps and it isn't small by any measure. Maybe a few inches thinner than the V8. The 20B is maybe only a few inches back. My motor is as close as you can get to the firewall without needing to cut it up. No firewall cutting at all for mine. Just had to bend that bay pinch weld and clearance the cowl in the center where the intake resides. What do you mean "less piping?" Isn't the rotary the only motor requiring numerous coolers and miles of hose? LS only requires heater, radiator, and fuel hoses. Less than the rotary with all the oil cooler stuff. You would also be right in your statement about vibes. But we aren't building aircraft or helos (by the way I'm a junior Mech E student at one of the best Engineering schools in the country and an ten year aircraft mechanic). Vibes would have the slightest impact on a car unless you just get really annoyed in traffic. VW bug (air cooled) motors are pretty annoying. Also I didn't even account for the turbo, intercooler, and all the piping for a turbo build which I assure you would put weight well into the iron block LSX status. Dare I say chevy small block weight range. The 20B is smoother but the LS is no dirt bike either.

No one says the RX8 is an easy swap. It's a pain in the ass and looking back, I should have bought my buddy's 996 C4s with the IMS failure for my LS swap. I was gonna fab all my swap parts but I came across a complete Hinson swap kit for a great price. Way more than what I would have spent on materials but the less headache was worth it. But it really isn't that difficult of a swap. Aside from the canbus, which I wont begin to worry about bc I'm not a tech nerd, it is a pretty straight forward swap. Bolt it in, fuel it, cool it, wire it and fire it. My parts list is pretty substantial and due to intelligent purchasing and well thought out plan my cost is very low. Lower than you might imagine. I'm using all high quality parts and no corners are cut. Motor and trans are used but I wouldn't have put a new motor in that Porsche. Most anyone who buys a crate motor is a newb anyway. I wouldn't take what those Miata guys say seriously bc they are a business and if they said they did it cheaper, people would want it cheaper. i want some of these moon chasers to show us something so they can lead by example.

That is a $17,000 parts list (plus engine and harness) that they provide the list for free to the DIYers. The business side is where they charge $47,000+ to do a turn key swap for people using that parts list.

So your dismissal of the number is flawed there. The people that want it cheaper than $47,000 do it with that parts list for less. And yes, people do it.


I didn't say that the RX-8 was easier, or that anyone though it was easy. Just complication = cost. Period. There is no way around that. How do you think that the RX-8 is less complicated than a Miata? Seriously....answer that question?