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Old 11-13-2017, 02:36 PM   #1
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06 RX8 first rebuild

Hi, new to the forums but have been viewing them a lot for the last year or so, i became the owner of a beautiful 06 shinka in December of 16, having had the engine replaced before I bought it I knew this day would come. Cylinder 4 is misfiring, shes running rough and the only thing left I can think to do (after replacing spark plus, coils, oil change). My cel light flickering and even the dealership gave up on her, so I will be pulling and rebuilding the engine over the following month or so. I am here to pick some brains and hear what you all have to say.
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Old 11-13-2017, 03:11 PM   #2
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Step 1:
Read this.

Step 2:
Read it again.

Step 3:
Read it a third time.

How many miles?

Have you personally cleaned your MAF sensor recently? If so, did you use MAF sensor cleaner? If not, do that.

Have you personally cleaned the ESS and reset KAM/NVRAM? If not, do that.

Have you personally visually inspected your catalytic converter? If not, do that.

I'm confused about the "cylinder 4 misfiring" thing. P0301 "cylinder 1 misfire" refers to the front rotor and P0302 "cylinder 2" refers to the rear. If you're getting P0304 (cylinder 4 misfire) something is very wrong.

The car will run poorly with the leading and trailing plug wires mixed up so verify that is correct.

Also, check for a vacuum leak.

When do the misfires happen? At idle? Under load? While cruising? When cold? When hot? All the time?

If you don't have one, get yourself a bluetooth OBD-II adapter (search for ELM327) and download an app on your phone (Torque, OBD Fusion, DashCommand, etc). Pull the exact codes and also tell us the MAF rate at idle, short term fuel trim and long term fuel trim.

I'm surprised that a dealership would just give up when they can charge you money to throw parts at the problem.

If you're dead-set on doing the rebuild yourself and you've never rebuilt a rotary before, you'd better be prepared to do it again fairly shortly. Make sure you have all the tools you need to check the tolerances of everything. If it's a 6MT, you'd be better off getting a Mazda reman for about $3k. The parts list alone can easily go that high if you do a DIY rebuild.

Last edited by NotAPreppie; 11-13-2017 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 11-13-2017, 03:39 PM   #3
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Since you mentioned getting a reman as an option, what is the best place to purchase a reman engine? Seems like Banzai is the only thing that came up in a google search that gave me any confidence in what I was buying.
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Old 11-13-2017, 03:46 PM   #4
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I am loosing compression, apparently of the 4 different readouts for compression all but the last one isnt hitting the mark, they could not get i supose my second trailing spark plug above 6.5 (i think, im at work and the paperwork is at the house.)
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Old 11-13-2017, 03:51 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weglat View Post
I am loosing compression, apparently of the 4 different readouts for compression all but the last one isnt hitting the mark, they could not get i supose my second trailing spark plug above 6.5 (i think, im at work and the paperwork is at the house.)
4 readouts? There should be 6. There is no point in measuring compression in the trailing spark plugs, just measure the leading, you should get 3 readings from each (one per rotor face).

You may want a new dealer, one who knows how to follow a shop manual :/

+1 to getting an OBD reader to get more data on the problem. You could go through the whole rebuild exercise only to find the problem is the MAF sensor.

Does the car start easily when the engine is warm?
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Old 11-13-2017, 03:54 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by NotAPreppie View Post
Step 1:
Read this.

Step 2:
Read it again.

Step 3:
Read it a third time.

How many miles?

Have you personally cleaned your MAF sensor recently? If so, did you use MAF sensor cleaner? If not, do that.

Have you personally cleaned the ESS and reset KAM/NVRAM? If not, do that.

Have you personally visually inspected your catalytic converter? If not, do that.

I'm confused about the "cylinder 4 misfiring" thing. P0301 "cylinder 1 misfire" refers to the front rotor and P0302 "cylinder 2" refers to the rear. If you're getting P0304 (cylinder 4 misfire) something is very wrong.

The car will run poorly with the leading and trailing plug wires mixed up so verify that is correct.

Also, check for a vacuum leak.

When do the misfires happen? At idle? Under load? While cruising? When cold? When hot? All the time?

If you don't have one, get yourself a bluetooth OBD-II adapter (search for ELM327) and download an app on your phone (Torque, OBD Fusion, DashCommand, etc). Pull the exact codes and also tell us the MAF rate at idle, short term fuel trim and long term fuel trim.

I'm surprised that a dealership would just give up when they can charge you money to throw parts at the problem.

If you're dead-set on doing the rebuild yourself and you've never rebuilt a rotary before, you'd better be prepared to do it again fairly shortly. Make sure you have all the tools you need to check the tolerances of everything. If it's a 6MT, you'd be better off getting a Mazda reman for about $3k. The parts list alone can easily go that high if you do a DIY rebuild.

the misfire happens at idle, and what they told me was, "we did everything we can do here, our next option is to replace the motor since we dont do rebuilds at the dealership." after replacing 400 dollars worth of plugs coils and injectors they felt so bad that it was still misfiring at idle that they didnt charge me for parts or labor, they just let me tow it home free of charge leaving the new coils, plugs and injectors in it.
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Old 11-13-2017, 03:57 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Loki View Post
4 readouts? There should be 6. There is no point in measuring compression in the trailing spark plugs, just measure the leading, you should get 3 readings from each (one per rotor face).

You may want a new dealer, one who knows how to follow a shop manual :/

+1 to getting an OBD reader to get more data on the problem. You could go through the whole rebuild exercise only to find the problem is the MAF sensor.

Does the car start easily when the engine is warm?

It starts cold or warm no problem its just missing a compression somewhere, ive rebuilt straight 6s V6s and V8s. Its prety consistent misfiring too. ive got 6 readings for compression before the fix here

6.5
6.3
6.0
6.1
6.7
6.4
ill retrieve the ater plug replacement compression values in about 2.5 hours
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Old 11-13-2017, 04:02 PM   #8
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If it starts hot or cold (and stays running) it may not need a rebuild. A higher power starter keep you going for a while. We need an RPM value to go along with those six numbers, however. They are only useful in the context of RPM. A given rotor will create more compression spinning faster vs spinning slower
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Old 11-13-2017, 04:07 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by BigBadChris View Post
If it starts hot or cold (and stays running) it may not need a rebuild. A higher power starter keep you going for a while. We need an RPM value to go along with those six numbers, however. They are only useful in the context of RPM. A given rotor will create more compression spinning faster vs spinning slower
I will look into the paperwork when I get home, I dont think they annotated the rmp but i can all. It would be amazing if it were anything other than a blown seal or a ruined housing. As much as i love her, avoiding surgery would be great.
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Old 11-13-2017, 04:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotAPreppie View Post
Step 1:
Read this.

Step 2:
Read it again.

Step 3:
Read it a third time.

How many miles?

Have you personally cleaned your MAF sensor recently? If so, did you use MAF sensor cleaner? If not, do that.

Have you personally cleaned the ESS and reset KAM/NVRAM? If not, do that.

Have you personally visually inspected your catalytic converter? If not, do that.

I'm confused about the "cylinder 4 misfiring" thing. P0301 "cylinder 1 misfire" refers to the front rotor and P0302 "cylinder 2" refers to the rear. If you're getting P0304 (cylinder 4 misfire) something is very wrong.

The car will run poorly with the leading and trailing plug wires mixed up so verify that is correct.

Also, check for a vacuum leak.

When do the misfires happen? At idle? Under load? While cruising? When cold? When hot? All the time?

If you don't have one, get yourself a bluetooth OBD-II adapter (search for ELM327) and download an app on your phone (Torque, OBD Fusion, DashCommand, etc). Pull the exact codes and also tell us the MAF rate at idle, short term fuel trim and long term fuel trim.

I'm surprised that a dealership would just give up when they can charge you money to throw parts at the problem.

If you're dead-set on doing the rebuild yourself and you've never rebuilt a rotary before, you'd better be prepared to do it again fairly shortly. Make sure you have all the tools you need to check the tolerances of everything. If it's a 6MT, you'd be better off getting a Mazda reman for about $3k. The parts list alone can easily go that high if you do a DIY rebuild.
also it is a 6 speed
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Old 11-13-2017, 04:27 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Loki View Post
4 readouts? There should be 6. There is no point in measuring compression in the trailing spark plugs, just measure the leading, you should get 3 readings from each (one per rotor face).

You may want a new dealer, one who knows how to follow a shop manual :/

+1 to getting an OBD reader to get more data on the problem. You could go through the whole rebuild exercise only to find the problem is the MAF sensor.

Does the car start easily when the engine is warm?
so i found half of the paperwork and there are 6 readouts, the 4th is the issue.
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Old 11-13-2017, 05:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotAPreppie View Post
Step 1:
Read this.

Step 2:
Read it again.

Step 3:
Read it a third time.

How many miles?

Have you personally cleaned your MAF sensor recently? If so, did you use MAF sensor cleaner? If not, do that.

Have you personally cleaned the ESS and reset KAM/NVRAM? If not, do that.

Have you personally visually inspected your catalytic converter? If not, do that.

I'm confused about the "cylinder 4 misfiring" thing. P0301 "cylinder 1 misfire" refers to the front rotor and P0302 "cylinder 2" refers to the rear. If you're getting P0304 (cylinder 4 misfire) something is very wrong.

The car will run poorly with the leading and trailing plug wires mixed up so verify that is correct.

Also, check for a vacuum leak.

When do the misfires happen? At idle? Under load? While cruising? When cold? When hot? All the time?

If you don't have one, get yourself a bluetooth OBD-II adapter (search for ELM327) and download an app on your phone (Torque, OBD Fusion, DashCommand, etc). Pull the exact codes and also tell us the MAF rate at idle, short term fuel trim and long term fuel trim.

I'm surprised that a dealership would just give up when they can charge you money to throw parts at the problem.

If you're dead-set on doing the rebuild yourself and you've never rebuilt a rotary before, you'd better be prepared to do it again fairly shortly. Make sure you have all the tools you need to check the tolerances of everything. If it's a 6MT, you'd be better off getting a Mazda reman for about $3k. The parts list alone can easily go that high if you do a DIY rebuild.
Hate to keep bugging you my responses will be more organized and informative after work, why in particular would i not want to rebuild the 6 speed MT verion of the RX8 renesis enginer?
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Old 11-13-2017, 05:39 PM   #13
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I'd call them back and ask for clarification of what rpm those numbers are at. The Mazda machine gives this info, and there's a sheet for normalizing it to 250rpm, which is where the numbers need to be evaluated for pass-fail.

I would really not worry about the engine itself with the information provided. Consistent misfires at idle sounds to me a lot more like an airflow issue. Either there's an air leak somewhere, or its delivering too much fuel for some reason, or some other options. Not saying your compression is stellar, but there's an element here of "if it runs fine, can the rebuild wait".

So get that OBD reader, there's definitely more to this story. Also check that your air intake, and MAF in particular, do not have oil in them.
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Old 11-13-2017, 05:41 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weglat View Post
Hate to keep bugging you my responses will be more organized and informative after work, why in particular would i not want to rebuild the 6 speed MT verion of the RX8 renesis enginer?
Based on your responses, you are not ready. The 6MT engine is fine, it's the best version. A lot of guys show up here saying they've rebuilt all kinds of stuff, and then 5k miles in their rotary is broken again. Unlike normal engines, you can't assume the big parts are fine, and as soon as you go down the road of replacing big parts, it becomes FAR more cost-efficient to just buy a rebuilt engine from someone who knows what they're doing and send your dead engine as core.

Like every engine rebuild, it's not whether it starts after you put it together -- that's easy, it's whether it still starts 60k miles later.

That said, if you're willing to go step by step and aren't in a rush, and willing to accept the risk, you can certainly do it yourself and learn in the process.
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Old 11-13-2017, 06:09 PM   #15
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Since you mentioned getting a reman as an option, what is the best place to purchase a reman engine? Seems like Banzai is the only thing that came up in a google search that gave me any confidence in what I was buying.
The part number for a Mazda remanufactured Series 1 6MT shortblock is "n3h3-02-200R-v0".
Do a google search for that (with quotes). You should find a number of places selling them for $2900-$3200.

In most cases, freight to you will be $125-$250. You will be charged an extra $1000 that they will refund after you freight your bad engine back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weglat View Post
Hate to keep bugging you my responses will be more organized and informative after work, why in particular would i not want to rebuild the 6 speed MT verion of the RX8 renesis enginer?
Based on your replies, you aren't very experienced with RX-8 lore. There is a ton of nuance and a number of seemingly minor details that can make or break a rebuild.

At a bare minimum, the parts replacement cost is probably $1000-$1500... And that's assuming your housings and irons are reusable. You won't know until you open the engine up and can check to see how much chrome is flaking off and whether there are any other issues. Once they've passed that test, you will need to verify that the parts aren't overly worn. Do you have the gauges to do that?

Add in the cost of new housings and irons and you're up over $3500 in parts. At that point, you might as well buy a Mazda reman for $3000.

Here's a good write-up about what you are getting yourself into...

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tec...3/#post3192605
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotarygod
As a bare minimum you will need all new seals (apex, corner, side), and springs, oil control rings, as well as all new rubber parts such as water o-rings, oil seals, etc... These along will cost you around $1000. I don't even recommend skimping on apex seals which is a very common thing to do. If you can't afford Ianetti ceramics, go with stock Mazda seals. Forget you've ever heard of any other names.

Now once you have all of these lined up, you can take the engine apart and inspect it for wear or damage. Measure everything! If you don't know how to or don't have the proper tools to do so, get them and learn! Buy a rotary rebuild video. It'll help. You may need to buy new rotor housings. I'd personally never replace just one so if a pair so if you need one, just buy 2. They are $631 EACH! Do your side plates show too much wear? Do they need to be resurfaced? End and intermediate housings are anywhere from $500 to $600 each. If they can be resurfaced then you may only be talking about less than $100. Is the eccentric shaft good? Usually is but you need to measure for wear. How are the bearings? What about the stationary gears? How are the rotors? Are the seal grooves showing signs of excessive wear?

Do you have a parts washer? You MUST get all of those parts completely clean BEFORE you even inspect them for damage and wear. This is often the most highly overlooked step. Please do not take your nice rotors down to the end of the driveway and set them on the bare concrete while you are hosing them down and scrubbing them clean with gojo hand cleaner and a toothbrush!

When you assemble the motor, how clean is your work area? It needs to be as clean as possible. Any good race engine shop looks like an operating room at a hospital. There's a good reason for that. You should do your best to get as closed to that as possible. (The clean part not the hospital!) Do you have any hylomar (or vasoline depending on your assembly method)?

You need to take the time to clearance everything. That means side seals, apex seals, and even bearings. Yes you can sand on them to true them! Seeing copper means nothing as your bearing is really your oil anyways. The "bearing" as we know it is just the place that the oil is allowed to act as the bearing. Since you need to clearance everthing, do you have feeler gauges? How about a torque wrench so you know how tight to put the tension bolts back in? Do you have the torque specs and clearance specs handy?

What other parts are you going to need to put it all back together? Do you need new gaskets anywhere? Vacuum lines? Do you remember where they and all of the electrical connectors you unplugged go?

Hopefully everyone gets the idea that in order to do a proper engine rebuild, it isn't cheap and it isn't quick. It's not difficult but there are lots of details to worry about. Keep in mind that there are many people that insist that you don't need to go to these lengths. They take an engine apart, not clean anything, replace some apex seals, port it haphazardly, and then use new water seals to put it all right back together having never measured or even cleaned anything. These engines may even start up and drive just fine. The big question is how long with they last since your engine life is really going to be determined by the most worn component you left inside your engine. It may even leak coolant or oil. Just topping if off is much easier than fixing it.

My personal opinion is that if you want to do it yourself, do your homework. Be very thorough. Take your time and do it properly. Also plan out a worst case scenario for how much money you may end up spending. It's almost never as cheap as you think it will be. Of course you could also just call Paul up and buy a Rick Engman rebuilt Renesis engine for around $2K or so. That's probably the same that you'd end up spending anyways but with the peace of mind that it's built properly!
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