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What's pretty obvious? As was stated, Mercury doesn't manufacture the coils.
And to add to the mix there is more than one IGN-1A coil with different part numbers for different applications. And finding one race engine that has a high (well compared to most street engines anyway) RPM redline runs a IGN-1A coil does not equate to them being "designed to run on high RPM 2 stroke marine engines".
There happens to be a TSB regarding failed ignition coils on that very engine BTW. Just search any of the boating forums, people with Mercury Marine engines have been having issues with these coils for many years. To the point where they were on a pretty long backorder. Not that those issues will equate to problems on the RX-8, but it is something to keep in mind.
I'm not saying they are not suited for it, these coils are well proven to work well on boosted rotaries at different levels. People just need to be careful about making statements as fact, that can't be substantiated.
This doesn't apply to the NA RX-8 world but there are things to consider if you are going to push the limits.
so on that basis the SB kit is pretty reasonable pricing
I would like to see you send ASH8 a kit so we can make sure they fit the RHD S2 gt's
The kit is nicely put together using quality parts, and given the fact that the company has a good rep I think it is a good value. I still think it needs to be proven to work well on the RX-8 and there are some QC issues that need to be worked out. Personally I don't think anyone that is NA would benefit from running it. Only time will tell though if the kit proves to be reliable.
What's pretty obvious? As was stated, Mercury doesn't manufacture the coils.
And to add to the mix there is more than one IGN-1A coil with different part numbers for different applications. And finding one race engine that has a high (well compared to most street engines anyway) RPM redline runs a IGN-1A coil does not equate to them being "designed to run on high RPM 2 stroke marine engines".
There happens to be a TSB regarding failed ignition coils on that very engine BTW. Just search any of the boating forums, people with Mercury Marine engines have been having issues with these coils for many years. To the point where they were on a pretty long backorder. Not that those issues will equate to problems on the RX-8, but it is something to keep in mind.
I'm not saying they are not suited for it, these coils are well proven to work well on boosted rotaries at different levels. People just need to be careful about making statements as fact, that can't be substantiated.
Professional skeptic.
If you read the last post, there were multiple engine applications for the same coil.
I used that one for the fact that it posted the 8k RPM, and the fact that it was used in a 24 hr. endurance race.
I saw 2 OEM Mercury coils matching the appearance of the ones with the kit in many different sites.
One was this one, and the other is a IGN-1, which doesn't have the built in igniter.
There are plenty of cheaper knockoffs on eBay, (surprise) so it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of the complaints were from people who bought the counterfeits.
Anyway, I'm sure MOST people are satisfied with what I discovered, as am I.
Well being satisfied and being properly informed are two different things. The fact that you (and others here and elsewhere) think them being designed for a two stroke boat engine in some way just makes them suitable for a four stroke rotary that redlines at 9k is the problem.
And to be clear, I like this kit, I am just not sold on these coils yet as an improvement and I am just saying making assumptions and silly claims doesn't help people understand this stuff. What works on something else or is used on something else doesn't mean it will work on a Renesis, there is more to it than that.
For those not familiar with the IGN-1A coils, they were specifically designed for two-stroke marine racing engines, designed to be extremely high output with extraordinarily fast recharge times.
-Heath
This from the first post of this thread from last year.
I see no reason to dispute this statement without proof to the contrary.
I tend to believe it's truthful, and I found enough evidence to confirm it in my mind.
I don't know why now suddenly it's an issue.
I will be sure to follow up with my thoughts and experiences with it, whatever may occur.
This from the first post of this thread from last year.
I see no reason to dispute this statement without proof to the contrary.
I tend to believe it's truthful, and I found enough evidence to confirm it in my mind.
I don't know why now suddenly it's an issue.
I will be sure to follow up with my thoughts and experiences with it, whatever may occur.
Evidence? :/
It's not suddenly an issue, the coils have been out a long time, understanding how they will work on a Stock Renesis and what makes them beneficial (or pointless) is what you should try and understand.
Well being satisfied and being properly informed are two different things. The fact that you (and others here and elsewhere) think them being designed for a two stroke boat engine in some way just makes them suitable for a four stroke rotary that redlines at 9k is the problem.
And to be clear, I like this kit, I am just not sold on these coils yet as an improvement and I am just saying making assumptions and silly claims doesn't help people understand this stuff. What works on something else or is used on something else doesn't mean it will work on a Renesis, there is more to it than that.
How is a Renesis different than a 13bREW?
The fact of the matter is, these are proven, flat out, for 5+ years in the FD community to work flawlessly and perform better than stock coils on completely stock motors, and on modified motors/ECU's all the way to 25psi single turbo E85 applications in WASTE SPARK, (meaning twice the duty cycle) as the direct fire Renesis. These coils are capable of igniting essentially anything you'd be able to generate on the Renesis combustion chamber pressure wise NA or FI. They put out more spark, and will break through carbon buildup on spark plugs (hence the better idling/revving on stock motors). They're just... better. I don't know how else to put it. You don't have to believe me, or buy them.... and I'm NOT pushing anyone to buy these things that doesn't *believe* in them. But to claim the Renesis is a special unicorn motor, in the face of years of real world testing and usage on the 13bREW is flat out silly.
The pedigree for the performance of these coils is WELL documented and the fact of the matter is the RX8 community is 5 years behind the times ignition wise. The fact that people have been retrofitting LS coils to these motors is a sign of how far behind the latest (and proven) technology you guys are (no offense). Frankly I was dumbfounded when we started searching for, and found no, IGN-1A kit already in existence, as these have been through years of testing on high horsepower rotaries
With the number of instances of failed stock coils, 3 mazda revisions, quite a number of instances of failed LS coils, is just "working" a good yard stick to measure with? The spark energy the stock coils put out is minuscule... and the LS coils are not meant to be driven at twice the duty cycle (not to mention their actual output at two times duty cycle is greatly diminished). I'm not sure what the argument AGAINST the IGN-1A's are but I've yet to see a good reason NOT to run them.
Lastly I'll leave you guys with a side-thought... all of the above coils are driven off of the OEM wiring, which is 20 gauge wire supplying ALL of the power to the ignition system!! That's insane. If the only argument I could make was against the stock wiring, coils aside, I'd still say just the wiring upgrade alone is worth it. But who am I to say, it's all hearsay
What's pretty obvious? As was stated, Mercury doesn't manufacture the coils.
And to add to the mix there is more than one IGN-1A coil with different part numbers for different applications. And finding one race engine that has a high (well compared to most street engines anyway) RPM redline runs a IGN-1A coil does not equate to them being "designed to run on high RPM 2 stroke marine engines".
There happens to be a TSB regarding failed ignition coils on that very engine BTW. Just search any of the boating forums, people with Mercury Marine engines have been having issues with these coils for many years. To the point where they were on a pretty long backorder. Not that those issues will equate to problems on the RX-8, but it is something to keep in mind.
I'm not saying they are not suited for it, these coils are well proven to work well on boosted rotaries at different levels. People just need to be careful about making statements as fact, that can't be substantiated.
This doesn't apply to the NA RX-8 world but there are things to consider if you are going to push the limits.
Can we put the whole Mercury Marine issue to bed already? This was the origin of the coils over 10 years ago! These have been fundamentally proven over and over in the FD community. And turbo Miatas, and V8 alcohol drag cars, and now stock LS motors... we don't just supply parts to rotaries. The rate of failure on this things is next to nothing unless someone types in 15ms dwell or something stupid, and even then we've seen the heat sink potting crack and melt before the coils actually give up the ghost. There's nothing you can do with a Renesis that these coils would not ignite. I stand by that statement. E85 + water injection + 25psi... make it happen cappin!
There's a saying in the US: the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
In Japan the analogous saying is: the nail that sticks out gets pounded down.
It's rough being the guy trying something "new", until it's accepted. I guess it's just a waiting game
I think the proof everyone is waiting for is them working on RX8's or specifically Renny's..
That'll take time.
They can work on a billion things and be crap for this car. Or they could be the cure all for ignition issue's. I stand by MY statement that these are overkill for a stock Renny/RX8.
However, i am truly hoping they work for the boosted renny as well as they do for the boosted REW.
I don't disagree completely and like I said, the coils are great and your wiring setup is great as well. As for reliability well you may be right but we shall see. There are problems with the coils in the boating world, no doubt about that. I still don't think making statements that can't be proven is really appropriate.
Comparing this particular use to other high HP cars running stand alones, etc. doesn't make sense when the guys here expecting an improvement over what they had already are running OEM ECU's on stock tunes making under 200WHP. I just don't think the successes on other platforms relate to the Renesis.
And we are not behind, there has been a lot of discussion about these coils for many years now. Will these work for many here? Sure. Will they be an improvement and reliability and performance? My guess is that maybe for some very few who are pushing the limits. Maybe.
It's not suddenly an issue, the coils have been out a long time, understanding how they will work on a Stock Renesis and what makes them beneficial (or pointless) is what you should try and understand.
Oh, I understand plenty.
More and more every day.
I formed my opinion a long time ago.
My opinion hasn't changed.
The fact of the matter is, these are proven, flat out, for 5+ years in the FD community to work flawlessly and perform better than stock coils on completely stock motors, and on modified motors/ECU's all the way to 25psi single turbo E85 applications in WASTE SPARK, (meaning twice the duty cycle) as the direct fire Renesis. These coils are capable of igniting essentially anything you'd be able to generate on the Renesis combustion chamber pressure wise NA or FI. They put out more spark, and will break through carbon buildup on spark plugs (hence the better idling/revving on stock motors). They're just... better. I don't know how else to put it. You don't have to believe me, or buy them.... and I'm NOT pushing anyone to buy these things that doesn't *believe* in them. But to claim the Renesis is a special unicorn motor, in the face of years of real world testing and usage on the 13bREW is flat out silly.
The pedigree for the performance of these coils is WELL documented and the fact of the matter is the RX8 community is 5 years behind the times ignition wise. The fact that people have been retrofitting LS coils to these motors is a sign of how far behind the latest (and proven) technology you guys are (no offense). Frankly I was dumbfounded when we started searching for, and found no, IGN-1A kit already in existence, as these have been through years of testing on high horsepower rotaries
With the number of instances of failed stock coils, 3 mazda revisions, quite a number of instances of failed LS coils, is just "working" a good yard stick to measure with? The spark energy the stock coils put out is minuscule... and the LS coils are not meant to be driven at twice the duty cycle (not to mention their actual output at two times duty cycle is greatly diminished). I'm not sure what the argument AGAINST the IGN-1A's are but I've yet to see a good reason NOT to run them.
Lastly I'll leave you guys with a side-thought... all of the above coils are driven off of the OEM wiring, which is 20 gauge wire supplying ALL of the power to the ignition system!! That's insane. If the only argument I could make was against the stock wiring, coils aside, I'd still say just the wiring upgrade alone is worth it. But who am I to say, it's all hearsay
You may not know it, (others in another thread already do), the quality of the wiring harness along with the fact that the coils are designed for the racing marine engines were the main reasons I bought the kit.
I was surprised by the negative reactions I received afterwards.
I did a lot of reading about this, and it wasn't on a whim that I decided to buy it.
Keep up the good work.
That'll take time.
They can work on a billion things and be crap for this car. Or they could be the cure all for ignition issue's. I stand by MY statement that these are overkill for a stock Renny/RX8.
Travis
I knew that going in and buying them that they were overkill, it's the whole reason I did. I don't have any current plans to FI my 8. But it's nice to have the extra room if I want to do so. My car isn't exactly stock though, but it isn't boosted, I just have the common bolt ons.
No this kit didn't give me miracle HP, but I can feel the difference (once again up top) between it and stock coils and even LS coils.
It's my exp. that this kit performs better up top for the length of time that I keep it there when I am driving spiritedly than another kit available for our cars. I don't race, but I do have fun. Luckily I had the option of using another 8 with said kit installed. Prior to the purchase and even after. Both cars had fresh motors from Mazda about 1 month apart from each other. I am confident so far that I made the right decision.
No this kit didn't give me miracle HP, but I can feel the difference (once again up top) between it and stock coils and even LS coils.
See but this is the issue, "feeling" the difference is just BS. It's stuff like that and statements like "They put out more spark, and will break through carbon buildup on spark plugs (hence the better idling/revving on stock motors)" that is just not helpful for those looking for tangible results.
Untuned, adding these coils accomplishes nothing performance wise.
This isn't magic.
Tuned and boosted would likely be another story but that depends on a few things and remains to be seen.
See but this is the issue, "feeling" the difference is just BS. Untuned, adding these coils accomplishes nothing performance wise.
This isn't magic.
Tuned and boosted would be another story.
Not sure what term would satisfy you into believing me when I tell you that I can notice the difference at higher RPMs between these and stock coils.
Although that wasn't the point in my post. I was just expressing my appreciation/preference base on the way the car actually performs for this kit over the stock coils and LS kit. Because while I don't have numbers there was a noticeable difference between 6 and 9k.
Not sure what term would satisfy you into believing me when I tell you that I can notice the difference at higher RPMs between these and stock coils.
Although that wasn't the point in my post. I was just expressing my appreciation/preference base on the way the car actually performs for this kit over the stock coils and LS kit. Because while I don't have numbers there was a noticeable difference between 6 and 9k.
If I was pushing these on people/trying to drum up sales, or pitching them as a massive power increase (which they aren't, and never have claimed to be) I'd head down the street to the local dyno shop, do some pulls on the stock coils, head back to our shop, swap the new setup in, do some more pulls the next day on the IGN-1A's, and then post up a couple dyno graphs. Then the same skeptics *demanding* hard evidence will then nit pick that it was done on different days, different temps, age of the stock coils, what stock coil version, plug wire age, how old are the plugs, and then scratch their heads wondering how these compare to LS coils ... on and on. I'm not here to *convince* you to buy them and I don't claim it's going to supercharge your car. In the same vein, this isn't snake oil, and yes there is both a performance/drive-ability, and reliability benefit.
We spend our time developing performance parts, not marketing/selling them. I'm not here trying to spur sales, or maximize profit... I came here dumbfounded that no one made this yet, and that there are companies out there selling (of all things) LS coil retrofits for the RX8. We've tested these to death on FD's for years and found bulletproof reliability, power increases, and drive-ability benefits, and ability to support tuning/power expansion later. We slapped a prototype kit on our RX8 with no modifications/dwell time adjustments and low and behold... smother revs, punchier mid and top end. Same as nearly everyone else is reporting here. Believe it or don't...
No offense, but the RX8 is small potatoes... and the customers who buy our parts typically find us, not the other way around. We build systems/components/kits that (I believe) should speak for themselves. Those that are in the know will purchase them, those who are not please sit back, eat some popcorn, and wait to see how it shakes out.
In the mean time (instead of everyone working together to help us make sure these can be made to fit S2/RHD/non TC ABS units) I'd like to pose a few questions myself since there's so much doubt in the air
-Are the stock coils are "sufficient" and if so what's the proof?
-Why do stock coils often fail?
-Why do the LS coil retrofits also seem to fail frequently?
-How did LS coil retrofits even became a thing here, and why is that "accepted"?
-Why did Mazda use 20ga wire as +12v power wire in the ignition system, and do you think that was a good idea and or was "sufficient"?
-Where is the stock block ground vs coil ground flow path, is in relation to sensitive sensors? (as far as I can tell it's all mixed together )
-Why are the stock coils not tied to sensor ground (and if anyone here understands associated implications)?
-Why do you think these coils will fail when they've been tested to not fail under far more extreme conditions?
-Why aren't you sure they'll work on the "Renny" when they're proven to work on the 13b-REW.
You're preaching to the choir for the most part.
Time will tell, and those of us who have already invested in it will be the 'guinea pigs'.
I personally don't believe there's an issue, and am very happy this kit is being produced.
Some people are happy with 'good enough', I guess.
I understand 9K's Skepticism. I welcome it. It's what drives communities. Far too many times I have witnessed the blind leading the blind and communities accepting something to be factual that isn't. In scott's defense, he's been here for the long haul and seen the wrong doings of many vendors. The unsubstantiated claims of what is better and what isn't...
I find his questioning to be refreshing. It forces you to face the facts. The facts are that on the older 13b's these coils are a god send(as well as other platforms). As I see it, I've only heard/read of these coils giving up @ 30+psi of boost on older 13b's. A Realm I just don't see happening anytime soon on a Renesis. Maybe someone should build a hybrid motor to help with the back pressure/heat issue and push the platform...
With that being said, Still loving my kit. Fires up and Helps ignite the fuel while I'm running down local Mustangs, Camaros, and turbo Hondas. Has survived a dwell time that quite frankly is a tad bit high for the coils. Has seen 20+psi of boost with no signs of breakup. The only thing I can say bad is I'm not sure how long these will hold up. My BHR coils that were said to be a lifelong investment have proven otherwise with multiple failures That's not a big issue as I'm aware that all good things do come to an end. Stay tuned for a long term reliability review.
02-02-2016, 07:27 PM
As was stated, Mercury doesn't manufacture the coils.
Rew swap approved!
)
That's not a big issue as I'm aware that all good things do come to an end. Stay tuned for a long term reliability review.