kmg1186

So 2005 is the last production year for both the Celica and the MR2. These are Toyota's only two sporty cars with seemingly nothing planned to replace them for the 2006 year. So why would Toyota drop this entire target market??

I was at the NYC auto show the other week, and I was looking around the Toyota section and saw not even a concept sport car. I decided to ask the representative. He said he wasn't sure either but that Toyota may come out with a car in 2 to 3 years...but if this is true shouldn't there be a concept already???

He also said that they have the Scion brand. But to me, that doesn't seem right for Toyota to completely rely on Scion for their sport market.

And so of course I couldn't help but ask him if the Supra was making a return. He said no before I could finish the question! He said that if he got a penny for every time he was asked that question, he'd have enough money to buy a Supra. haha.

But yeah, so i was wondering why Toyota would decide not to have their sport market satisfied for two years, and plus why they wouldn't even have a concept car at this point?

124Spider

It is a shame. Toyota has made some pretty neat cars over the years--the All-Trac; the various flavors of Supra; even the GT-S was ok. The reality is that there's a lot more money to be made making Camrys than sports cars, I guess, so that's what Toyota's going to do for a while. I've read that they have shown a concept car for the performance market, but I don't know that first hand.

Toyota is not alone, of course. Honda only makes the NSX and the S2000, both of which have miniscule (and declining) sales.. Rover/MG just went bust, so, once again, it looks like no sports cars coming from Great Britain.

The good news, of course, is that there are lots of sports cars out there--probably a better assortment than ever before, so Toyota's absence is not too bad a thing.

PaulieWalnuts

My guess is because the existing sporty cars they have aren't selling well so they're focusing on what they can sell well - family cars, economy cars, luxury cars and SUVs.

Sports cars don't sell like hotcakes like they did back in the 80s and 90s. For a while Miatas and RX-7s sold over 50,000 a year. I'm sure Zs and Supras did too. I don;t know of any sports cars that sell over 50K a year. Are there any that do? I can't imagine car companies making a profit off of cars that sell around or under 10,000 a year. Which is probably why the Celica and MR2 got axed. They aren;t critical to Toyota's image like the Miata is to Mazda.

kmg1186

Yeah I see what you both are saying. However, how many years beforehand do concept cars usually precede their production models? If it's true what the rep said about Toyota releasing a sports car in a few years, shouldn't they have a concept already? Like I said, I was just recently at the NYC Auto Show and saw nothing there -- unless they decided not to bring the concept to nyc??

PaulieWalnuts

Depends. The 8 was in the concept stage probably for 4 years before it was launched in mid 2003. On average, car companies seem to launch a new model 2-3 years after making the concept public. Chrysler seems to move concepts to production within a year.

So yes, if they have a new sports car coming out in the next year or two, we probably would have seen spy shots of it already. Lexus has the LF-A sports exotic concept - http://www.lexus.com/about/concept/lf-a.html

kmg1186

Yeah I saw that Lexus at the NYC show. It's a hundred times better in person! Very cool car.

Xyntax

Well, in a way, it's the Lotus Elise :D

BlueEyes

With their involvement, and new success in F1, I have to believe that they are going to make a sports car. At least, I hope so.

larazaunida

edmunds has a spy shot of what they said is the successor of the supra that will be released around 07 and its based off of the LFA model.

himitsu

Nope, the LFA is to replace the SC430 Lexus... even the product director said that that thing is LEXUS not TOYOTA.
Not that I like that fat thing either, the shape is more fitting of a GT car for 50 year olds.

They havent released a new design of the Supra yet. If you are lucky end of this year.
If you go according to their timeline, its in the Tokyo Motorshow 06, because thats going to be the time Nissan is unveiling its GT-R and Mazda its RX-7. Traditionally these 3 cars are considered to be the pinacle of Japans sports car market. If you noticed they are discontinued at about the same time, within months of each other. So they are going to be reborn together again, and as of now, none of the companies have opened their cards yet, its going to be a royal rumble.

But definitely nothing like that LF-A...

Right now, they are looking at a mid-engined sports car using extensive technologies from F-1... or a more normal sports car like the previous Supra.
Same with Nissan, a radically different machine, or a more conventional GT-R.
Of course the biggest difference from the 2 proposals are the price.
Mazda is the only one that for sure is going to have a relatively convetional RX-7.

That is the reason for the holdup. Nissan and Toyota both sizing up each other on this issue. Coz if Nissan is going to release a 60K GT-R, Toyota doesnt want to be caught with a 120K mid engined car nobody buys.

Most likely, the Supra, GT-R and RX-7 is going to be more of less the same as the previous setup, of course with more powerful engines since Japan has abolished its 280ps limit.
And on top of that, Toyota and Nissan is going to release a radical super car to challenge the Europeans, this is going to be out there in pricing like the NSX.

truemagellen

I've never been fond of Toyota's...mostly due to looks...but I'd like them to come out with something else because it will make the 8 look even better since I've never seen an attractive car built by Toyota...by Lexus? well a few

GotBass

I saw a toyota commercial the other day that said that all toyota cars get at least 30 MPG. This statement alone might make more $$ for the company than a sports car.

DreRX8

Well they still sell that weak *** Solara.

globi

What's certainly interesting is: Why spend all that money on F1 when not even selling any sportscars?

Shocka

Here is my outlook on it all. In the past few years A Lot of sports cars came out. in another 3 years these will be off the market at which point Toyota will probably come back with something.

Hey it could happen. Then again toyota does make the best sedans (minus the looks) all around and Trucks as far as imports are concerned

raji

I read in a review of the Scion tC that it is no coincidence that the MR2 and the Celica are going away right around the time the tC is coming around. To my undocumented logic, it would make sense to try and boost sales of Toyota's newcomer before launching something that will make the Scion's line of cars look like complete crap. But then, aside from the tC, the line of Scion cars DOES look like complete crap! lol

jsh1120

Why do dogs lick their (genitalia)? Because they can.

Why does Toyota ignore the premium sports car market? Same answer.

Toyota doesn't need a high profile premium sports car to sell their bread and butter lines. And considering the price of gasoline both today and for the foreseeable future, there's every reason to believe that a corporate advertising campaign that focuses on MPG and overall affordability is a winning strategy.

That's not to say that Toyota won't introduce such a vehicle, but hot sports cars tend to come from manufacturers trying to build market share by increasing dealer traffic with a "halo" model. Toyota has no such need at this point and the Scion brand appears to be very successful in creating initial brand loyalty.

rx8wannahave

Best line of the day…lol

Jsh1120, true…but if I was a Toyota fan I would be upset if my favorite car company did not build a sports car for me. (Enter: Chevy, Dodge, Ford…not that they are my favorite but they let me down somewhat)

Chevy has no real sports car under 30K (while the GTO get’s close) and they punked out on the Camaro

Ford is stuck in the past (while I do “like” the new Mustang I don’t love it nor it’s rear seat room)

Dodge (has not had a rwd sports car around for a long time, loves automatics, and overweight cars)

I wonder…how many cars do you have to sell for them to be profitable? Let’s try to figure this out the formula for success…

Warning: The following is a generalization so don’t hold me to them

Older people normally have the money for a sports car but are looking for one that wont be completely uncomfortable during the daily drive. Their old bones need comfort…lol, not making fun…we all get older and that’s a fact.

Young people don’t have the money and are basically willing to sacrifice anything to get the speed/sport they are looking for.

Young-mature-old-but-not-OLD people (LOL) don’t have the money of the older people but have more of it than the young. They are looking for the best bang for the buck and will sacrifice some things but expect very good quality and to be usable for their growing families.

Problem: You need to somehow please all of the above (probably needs two versions of the car) so you can sell enough of them to make a profit.

My personal opinion…

Make the car light, which means you wont need a huge expensive engine. Don’t make it too light because it will cost too much and possibly scare owners into thinking it’s unsafe. Make it usable by giving it 2+2 seating where all passengers are comfortable. Build it safe, with very good quality and an extensive list of options so you can price the car to your specifications-budget. If you need two of them, base them on the same platform to save cost. It has too look sexy and tough but also have a few spoiler options to further personalize the car. (Sounds like what Toyota is trying to do with Scion while so far messing up the formula by Toyota’s conservative approach and expensive option list)

Note: I laugh at myself and remember a friend of mine that always use to remind me that, here am I trying to tell a successful company (or experts) how to do things...lol...I'm young and foolish at times...forgive me.

It should probably weigh 2900 pounds and come with a strong engine that is as fuel efficient as a normal sporty sadan. Keep it naturally inspired to save cost and it should develop about 260HP. Price $21-$28,000 based on how you equip it.

Performance should not be optional but option B should probably be a high power $35-45,000 car making 400HP.

LOL…I’m probably dreaming, since I’m guessing that if they have not built it…it’s "probably" not feasible, but I’ll keep dreaming because if there is no dream…there is no discovery, improvement, or advancement.

FYI….I guess you see why I got the RX8, it fulfilled what in my opinion is the ultimate sports car.

So who wants to found a car company lead by a guy with no credentials or degrees useful in the automotive world other than the passion I have for cars? LOL…I can open up a bank account to get things started…lol…

Oh to bring it back to topic once I took it to fantasy land, yeah...what's up with Toyota not building a sports car...dude...I mean really now...

Feras

iTrader: (1)

a good prediction on a toyota sports car in sales would be 50000-75000 in the US. LAst year toyota sold 1.8million cars (toyota and lexus). The potential profit from a segment that small to toyota and the required sunk costs in order to develop that sports car equate to a bad business decision financially speaking. Stripped of all the BS toyota is in it to make money, and a sports carr just doesnt make fiscal sense. Toyota doesn't care about dreamers nor should they, and thats why they sell more cars than almost anyone else.

RX-Hachi

I agree with himitsu, if the makers do have pure sports concepts on the drawing boards, the October Tokyo Motor Show is when they'll choose to unveil them. Rumors from Japan seem to give a 50% chance that the new RX-7 will be shown then. The GT-R is a bit more certain, the new NSX is also about 50/50.

I can't wait for October, if there's a new RX-7 shown that looks similar or better than the FD, that's going to be my next car. Or maybe the GT-R, it has such a legendary heritage, but has been forbidden fruit to the US market.

With the dropping of the 280hp limit in Japan, I just gotta believe that there's a wave of killer sports cars that will be making their way to our shores by early 2007 or 2008.

EDIT: And if they don't show a new RX-7 concept at the Tokyo Motor Show, I'm hoping (praying?) that they at least introduce the FI Mazdaspeed RX-8.

rx8wannahave

OUCH!!!!!! That was painful to hear...I'll go cry now...

Well, thank GOD for the lesser car companies because if Toyota (in all it's greatness) would run things I think we would be stuck with their normally boring cars. We all would be driving around in a box with wheels that made more "sense".

Thank GOD for the dreamers at car companies that have a "soul" for more than just making a sale. Heck...we may as well have the horse and carriage back.

Note: I'm just saying...I understand fully that if a company wants to survive it has to make money, that's like business lesson 1. So, I guess I wish they made enough money to be able to produce a sports car that can at the very least break even and allow you not to ignore a certain market or customer. Many people that love sports cars later buy sadan's, SUV's, or mini-vans from the same maker because they remember the experiance they had with that fun to drive sporty car. I like Toyota for their quality cars...but I would not buy them because they build boring cars in my opinion.

Feras

iTrader: (1)

thats just toyota, they dont care because they deal in volume, the market that is interested in buying a sports car is very small...in fact a friend of mine who just bougght a corolla wouldnt look at a mazda 3 because he adamantly didnt want a 'sports car' (he was irreconcilable). Companies like mazda, porsche, bmw, subaru, etc. make cars because they want the ride to be fun and/or connected to the road. Slogans like "there is no substitute" "the ultimate driving machine" "zoom zoom" are indicative of this. Plus these companies arent as mainstream as a toyota so they can afford to build cars in market niches and specialize in those niches.

raji

i have an urge to clear something up here... some of it is opinion, some of it is fact.

EVERY car company builds their cars with a profit in mind. Even the cars with "soul" are built with a profit in mind. Mazda didn't build the 8 for the hell of it because there were a few car enthusiasts that were willing to pay money for it... The people in charge of coming up with ideas probably had sales figures in mind BEFORE any car went into production. If the idea of the 8 as we now know it wasn't a profitable idea, the whole thing would have died WAY before the designers and ex-race-car drivers would have had a chance to mess with the project.

It's the Industrial Designers (and any racing talent involved), slaving away in a dark corner somewhere in some remote factory basement -- THEY are the ones that give cars their "soul". The business-minded people and the artistic-minded people are in a constant battle to have their way over the other side's. It works that way here at the game studio i work for (artists vs. programmers) and in every other place where art meets science or business.

"soul" only comes into play if the company feels like it and if the designers get enough freedom, IF they ever get that far. You look at some early designs for the 8 and it looks much better than the real 8 does, but that's the way it goes with every car... it always gets butchered before it goes into production.

truemagellen

I have to clear something up with your post...Mazda designers and fans have been pushing Mazda to produce more rotary cars...the beauty of our car is the legacy behind it, it is truly unique...and until recently it has not been very profitable for the company considering that as the flagship vehicle the RX line hasn't gained much in terms of brand recognition...instead Mazda has appeased its fans...so I do believe the RXs truly DO have soul

talking about most other car companies...well yes it is true...they are souless and profit mongers...I take pride in Mazdas core car values...even though they have been tainted a bit by Ford

rx8wannahave

I can understand what Feras said but it's a shame Toyota can't build a sports car that can at least break even with so their fans have something to be happy about.

Toyota is a heck of a car company and for the common person they build a near perfect car to suit their needs, no doubt about that. BUT, for the auto enthusiast Toyota is a dead car company in my opinion.

Only at Lexus do they show signs of life...