To Vette or not to Vette
 

Hey everyone,
Bit of a background, I took my brothers 94 vette a few years ago and it spent more time in the shop than I drove it with only 70Kmiles. I traded that POS in for a Liberty (something pratical) at the same time my brother purchased a fully loaded Mada RX8. Well, had that boring crap (Liberty) for 8 months and my brother found a 2000 Black vette that he fell in love with. So I took the RX8 and he got the C5.

I LOVE the RX8, it handles like a dream, brakes on a dime, HID's, so comfortable............. but it is missing one thing.............. torque; aka. American muscle.

Get this also, my bro will give me the car for $20K and it has 40Kmiles (making my car payments $100 less/mon ) and he is looking for his C6 he is dying for. So, my question is should I????

I had some bad experinces with the 94. Optispark went out, shatter clutch, roof leaks.... and I VOWED never to own another vette. but I do like the C5's alot though and love to add a in dash DVD (no can do in the RX8).

For those who have owned or own a C5 what's going to break down at 50K miles on the C5? this is a GM made, I'm sure something already broke on it. I know my bro had to replace some outside temp sensor and it wouldn't let the A/C kick on.... even in 100F TX heat.

So confused on what to do. Few things are driving me to YES and few to NO.

What is the resale on the vette? If he is giving you a really good price on it, and you can take it to a mechanic and it gets a clean bill of health, I would do it. Drive a vette for $100 less per month than an RX-8? I would. If you don't like it, you can always sell it and buy a 2006 RX-8. How much is your insurance going to go up from the 8? That might be a consideration.

One thing that won't be an issue is the Opti they went to direct fire individual coils and a crank sensor. The Opti was a huge pain as you discovered. As far as the rest it's just part of having a car, sometimes you are lucky with problems and sometimes you aren't. If it were me I would go for the Vette. The cheaper payment is a big reason as well as torque....

Been there, done that.

I had a torch red 2000 'vette convertible. Gobs of torque and a very roomy and comfy interior. The bad news is it was in the shop A LOT - and typical (crummy) GM service too. Mine used oil about like an 8 (dealer said that is "normal"). The headlights are TERRIBLE. I put an HID conversion on mine then blinded people - so never found a good system to light up the road and not piss others off. It is a big, heavy feeling car - pretty much the anti-8.

You say $100 less a month - that is ASSUMING you can get out from under your 8. With dealers unable to sell NEW cars resale value is in the tank, so check your payoff and look at the gobs of used 8s on fleabay, cars.com, and autotrader and see if it even looks like you CAN sell yours.

If you can't sell yours, then your payment just about doubled if you take the 'vette and can't unload the 8.

As was mentioned, call your insurance agent - the difference in rates may use up a lot of your savings.

Once you get through paying for the C5, you will have a really old high mile car. If you keep your 8 then it would be newer and lower miles?

I don't know what equipment is on the C5, but $20k would be a decent price on it - about trade-in value for a 2000. Keep in mind that DSC is an OPTION on 2000 'vettes (mine had it) and you REALLY don't want to step into all that power without that option. Mine was loaded - CD + change, heads up (nice!), auto climate, tilt, sport suspension (not the adjustable one), sports seats, 6sp manual, etc.

I say keep the 8. But I have done the V-8 thing - a 'vette and a BMW M5 - and decided I like a light, tossible, high revving, driver has to do the work car - the 8 and the S.

Dennis

You can do an in-dash DVD player in the 8. People on this forum have done it.

But I guess you really need to ask yourself...what do you like driving better? If you absolutely NEED the torque, I think that's the answer you're looking for...

Yeah sorry, I should have told everyonet the options it had. Basically everything dwynne mention, sport seats, HUD, 6spd, DSC. is loaded. I was looking on autotrader and 2000's with ~40K miles are running about $25K.

Plus, I will never be upside down on a car note, not sure why it was mention. I'm already 28 and know debt is not a good thing and being upside down on a car sucks. I only owe $17K on the car now so I'm assuming can get get rid of it for more, if I can't... that doesn't say much about the resale value of a RX8 being a loaded 04 RX8 (minus Nav) if I can't get more than $20K and a 00 Vette go for $25K..... as far as insurance. only goes up $9/mon.

thanks for everyones input, I'll let everyone know what I decide on in the next month or so.

Thanks everyone!!!!

I had a 2000 Corvette. No problems. Had to get rid of it at 62,000 because my lease was up. Chevrolet totally redesigned the Corvette in 1997. This is the first completely new Vette. It shares nothing with the previous models. You will LOVE it! I miss mine.

By the way... if he doesn't have an aftermarket exhaust on there get the Corsa!

Get the Vette, there's no reason to believe the Vette won't be as realible or moreso than the RX-8. Each car can have its issues, no matter how they're supposed to be they won't listen :p A Camry can be a total lemon and a Kia could end up being troublefree for 100k miles... The Vette is Cheaper, has more power and torque, still has great handling, seems like a no brainer to me...

:rolleyes: Uh huh. The reliability study (JD Power?) that just came out a few weeks ago puts GM above the industry average and waaaaaayyyyy ahead of Mazda.

And the RX-8 getting more attention than a 'Vette... I don't think so.

seeing that you live in houston and obviously weather is not a factor. Get the vette, unless you need 2 extra seats and lower insurance.

the answer to the question in the threqad title is..... no.

not to vette.

I don't know about that Ike--I know alot of people that have alot of problems with Vettes--besides it sucks to still have to pay notes on a high mileage car that stays in the shop. If you must--keep the 8 for a while longer then get a newer example of a Corvette.

The C5 Vette is supposed to be pretty realiable, but I don't have any personal experience other than a close friend's mom having a 98 that was trouble free for 3 years. Also, the Vette in question only has 20k miles on it.

Ahh--I overlooked that it has 20K miles. The C5s I know of are in the shops quite a bit--but even with that said--with only 20K miles I'd probably do it myself. First off I'd check the insurance and go float around on C5 forums and ask those guys about any issues they are having. I'd also get an idea on how feasible it is to sell your 8.

Whoops, it's 20,000 and 40k miles... Regardless, I'd still go for it, the Vette will hold it's value so even if he ends up having problems he won't be losing money and may even make money by selling it.

He should go read on the 'vette bulletin boards or subscribe to the 'vette e-mail lists. LOTS and LOTS of problems with the C5. Better than the C4? For sure! Reliable and trouble free, not hardly. Of course, the 8 is no great shakes either.

Dennis

I posted on the corvetteforum.com and asked if there are any typical problems with the C5.

before i bought the rx8 for a short time I was really looking into a 2002-2003 z06 vette. after looking at them you could find them still under warrenty, with around 15k miles on them for around 25K (everyone was seling them cause the new C6 vette was coming out)

while i was looking at them, I also looked at C5's with more miles on them to see what mine might look like in a couple years.

nearly all of cars I saw with more than 30k miles on them had lots of problems inside, leather was cracked. the rubber around the buttons for windows and locks (on the doors) were torn, the dash was sun faded, all the joints where different parts of the interior (center console, dash, radio cluster, ect) were mis aligned (looks like the differnt panels are slowly moving away from each other) the stiching on the shift boot was coming apart... the whole car creaked and rattled....

so in a nut shell, the car looked like it easyily had 80k miles on it, even though they were just around 30K, the rest of the car looked great, so it would seem that the owner tried to take care of it, but the 'cheap american plastics' had seen better times.

it was kind of sad. the above along with the insurance on a 400hp car (im 21) made me steer clear, plus I didnt want another 2 seater (coming out of a miata)

i dont doubt what you read, but i see it like this :

GM's car sales started to fall cause people were saying that the quality of the car (not sure if it was build quality, or reliabilty or waht) was not as good, for the price, as what other companys offered. then a study comes out that says GM is above average in reliabity.

its kinda strange that they are losing money, cause no one will buy their cars, but then they are recognized for making cars with above average quality?

hrmm, maby there is a hidden partnership there.

I didn't keep mind long enough for 40k miles and I had lots of problems.

Just ask about the "steering column lock" fiasco (the column locks and you can't unlock it, so you have to call for a tow). They have done several recalls to try to fix that. Most folks buy a bypass to disable it.

A MY 2000 would be too old to get a GMPP on, so that would be another reason not to buy it. Something breaks, you pay.

Dennis

Yes, GM and Ford are paying off JD Power :rolleyes:. What you say was definitely true of American cars in the 80's and into the early-to-mid 90's. That's when consumers got fed up with the crap they were offering and started fleeing to other makers, namely the Asian manufacturers. This mentality that "American cars suck" was certainly well-deserved back then, but the problem the domestic manufacturers face now is convincing consumers that their quality and reliability has significantly improved. Your mentality is a prime example of this. Even though there is statistical evidence that the quality/reliability gap is VERY small, people still refuse to believe it, and instead suggest it's the result of a conspiracy theory. Give me a break.

Anyhow, I don't want this thread to get too far off track. I don't know too much about 'Vettes, but I think the quality/reliability concerns are being overstated by some people. This is the same type of mentality that causes non-RX-8 owners to bash the car because they hear a few bad things about it. Anyone who visits this forum could get a really bad impression of the car due to the dozens of major problems that people have experienced. The best sources for quality/reliability information are the studies that are published by groups like JD Power. The reliability study that was just published is based on the number of problems reported after 3 years in service. Obviously, this data won't be availabe to compare the RX-8 and Corvette. Nonetheless, there is no disputing the fact that the Mazda brand scored poorly on this report (well below industry average), while most GM and Ford brands were above the average and very competitive with the likes of Toyota.

EDIT:
Got this from JD Power's website:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...s_corvette.jpg

Looks like the initial quality of the body/interior of the Vette is crap. Other than that, I don't see how an RX-8 lover can be bashing the car. Dependability looks pretty good to me. dwynne, maybe you had a lemon?

Those JD power results are the absolute last place I would get reliability info! Beisides dwynne--I know several C5 owners that have issues. THE ONLY PLACE TO GET HONEST RELIABILITY INFO IS FROM OWNERS. Consumer Reports and JD said the Millenia S was reliable--mine has had more issues than I'd care to talk about. So no offense--that graph is just a pretty picture to decorate this thread :p

Well this is another topic in itself, which was discussed quite a bit in another thread. One group of people insists the studies are junk, yet offers up no reasonable explanation to support their opinions, and the other group of people realizes that the studies are based on survey responses from actual OWNERS of the vehicles. Yes, that's right, you said it yourself--the information should come from the owners, and it does! We're supposed to rely on your sample size of 4 or 5 buddies who owned Vettes (and quite possibly ran them into the ground) over a survey of thousands of owners??? Tell us why.

The same study says my Millenia S is reliable. You could go lurk on these car forums and get the honest answer. Its also funny how they can ascertain such sample sizes from 1st year cars too? What is the standard deviation? These studies are far from accurate and scientific. I'll get my info from my first hand experience and talking directly to owners--don't need a middle man. Those studies mean nothing. If it works for you go right ahead.

LOL, okay. Your sample size of a few friends must be far more "accurate and scientific" than the report produced by a company employing dozens of statisticians. If the studies mean nothing, then why do all of the manufacturers use these studies to monitor the quality/reliability trends of their vehicles and issue public statements regarding the results? I got a survey in the mail less than a month after buying the car. Why does it seem unreasonable that they couldn't collect hundreds of surveys for a first-year car?

Like I said--if you want to put faith in them go right ahead--I'll go straight to the forums and hear the owners first hand. Besides--you are speaking in general terms--what is the exact sample size, standard deviation, et al? And manufactures 'don't use those' they conduct their own. I put more faith in the long term test that magazines conduct than those 1/2 ass JD and Consumer reports--they don't even specify the exact issues in problem areas. So lets say I follow these surveys--they still only give the most generalized report on a vehicle. 2 stars for interior quality--what does that mean? It means the interior sucks? Does the seat fall out? Those studies are sub par. You can get more accurate information from using your own descretion and talking to owners first hand. The buck doesn't stop at those surveys. And yes I'll take my sample size over those surveys (that don't report their sample size or any other survey criterion). I feel where you are coming from--but those surveys don't tell enough info to be credible.

A lot of 'vette folks are funny, they swear AT the cars and swear BY the cars. Strange, huh?

You ask THEM if you should buy one and most will say yes. If you listen to them complain about all the problems and the crummy dealers and the lack of support from GM you would wonder why.

In this case, at least the current owner is known - did he take care of the care and not rag it out? It is his brother so he should know.

I think it just comes down to is mospeed really wants a 'vette or not and if the insurance company says it is reasonable for him to do it.

I don't think you could have talked ME out of getting my 'vette before I got it. Once I had it and started having lots of troubles, then it was like "oh, I see". But I have owned one now, so I have had that experience. If that is what mospeed wants, then go for it (but we warned you). He could have it a long time and have 0 problems with it.

To me, it was fun to have a large V-8 with 345hp (C5) or 394 (M5) but that thrill is single dimentional. You romp on the throttle and the car goes NOW. But in the end I find that driving the car and rowing the gears is more rewarding. Having something ligher and agile is just more fun the other 99% of the time I was not romping on the go pedal.

I find it ironic the the V-8 'vette will probably get BETTER mileage than mospeed is getting now, both city and highway! The tall 6th makes for cheap cruising at speed.

Dennis

Thanks for bringing the topic back into what the thread I started was about... ;)

but yeah, insurance is not an issue, and yes the car has been taken care of since ~20K miles... not sure about the first owner. :rolleyes:

but thanks everyone.. :D This also comes down to WHEN my brother finds his perfect C6. he is particular about the options he wants. Z51, 6spd, convertible, blue, navi. by the time he finds it he may have 100K miles on the vette. :)

didn't even think about the better MPG! at $2.45 / gal here in TX for 93 octane... the 12-15mpg RX8 is not helping. my brother did tell me he is getting near 20mpg city and 27mpg plus hwy. :eek: :eek: :eek:

That's the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard! I got WAY more stares when I had my Vette. And it was NOT in the shop. I get so sick of people putting down American cars.

Well if American cars were up to par then people wouldn't put them down :rolleyes: They trail in terms of the technology and interior fit and finish--in terms of reliability, I've never personally experienced problems with them--but I have friends that had Fords (Explorers/ Mustangs) and they stayed in the shop. Besides the Corvette there aren't many American cars I'd get over foreign competition; however I wouldn't dream of getting a non-American truck or SUV.

http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pr...asp?ID=2005089

DreRX8: If you're going to keep it up on your end then so am I. The fact that you're questioning this reliability study because it doesn't give a standard deviation figure shows that you don't even understand what it is tracking. The study tracks problems per 100 vehicles over a 3-year period. The industry average is 237. This means that most cars will have 0, 1, 2, 3, or 4 problems over that period. Standard deviation for something like this is meaningless. It'll come out to around 2-3 problems per vehicle if I had to guess. It doesn't mean anything, hence the reason it is not published. What's important is the average number of problems per vehicle, which is exactly what the study tracks.

You asked about sample size--it's just over 50,000. This is enough to provide several hundred samples per vehicle model, which anybody with a statistics background could tell you is plenty.

Despite what you say (and I have no idea why you feel you are qualified to make these claims), all the manufacturers DO use these studies to track quality reliability trends of their vehicles. You are right that they also use their own internal studies, but I know for a fact that the two match very closely--so much so that they are given equal weighting. If you take the time to look at the study you'll see that the industry as a whole is doing a fantastic job when it comes to reliability. There is very little gap now between the best and the worst cars. American cars are right up there with their Japanese counterparts.

Your still talking about that huh? Like I said--go right ahead an go by the studies--I'm going to go from personal experiences. "American cars are right up there with their Japanese counterparts" Maybe you should re read my last post about American cars baby boy ;) I didn't dog them out--their interior fit and finish lag--but I haven't experienced reliability problems with them on a whole. As far as Vettes are concerned--I've had more than enough experience with multiple Vettes to dispute those quality studies. You are saying that Corvettes are reliable cause the study says so--even though several former Vette owners have complained about reliability, and the cop out is that they must have lemons :rolleyes: Well maybe your right smart guy :p

You do realize that the 94 Vette was largely unchanged since 1983. The C5 was all new from the ground up in 1997. Completly different car.

I'm more than familiar with Corvettes :rolleyes: C4 and C5.

Alot of people have friends who's Vette had tons of problems. Alot of problems can be found on internet forums. But no one complains about their trouble free car...because there's nothing to complain about. Just look at the Tech Forum here, you'd think the 8 is the biggest piece of junk ever let out of Japan if that's all you went by... Every single make/model/year has its share of problems. And according to those who actually collect data on such things, the C5 seems to do just fine. GM has come a long way in quality and reliability, and are rated above the industry average by everyone who rates these things. The stigma of bad quality and reliablity is much harder to fix. Look at Hyundai, they beat out Honda regularly on reliability in the past few years, but everyone still assumes Hyundai = crap.

LOL, okay maybe we both need to cool it with the sarcasm. Regarding "fit and finish" of American cars lagging, there are initial quality studies that suggest otherwise. However, you've made it abundantly clear that you'll take a few testimonials and personal experiences over any type of statistical evidence. That's fine. The reason I mentioned the study in the first place was to provide another point of view (besides the popular view on this forum, surprise surprise) about the quality and reliability of American cars. It's my opinion that the originator of this thread should have more to go on than the biased view of a few people on a Japanese car forum (whether they are for or against getting the Corvette). Just because you choose to ignore the results of these studies doesn't mean everybody else will.

Well, I agree that the quality of American cars is much much better than it used to be--especially in terms of features and value. However, the entry-level cars's build quality is still pretty awful. I have a 2004 Sunfire, and the list of quality errors is impressive:

* Bottom half of dash and top half of dash don't quite meet in the middle.

* Looking at the heater vents, the bolts used to hold the dash together are CLEARLY visible just inside.

* After three weeks, the door fell out of hinge and created an air leak. After ignoring it for a couple days, the door nearly fell off (fixed it myself with a socket set so I could get to work).

* After two months, the trunk would not close--apparently the frame warped and the hook no longer reached the latch. They had to unmount and remount the latch to get the trunk to close.

* The CD player has all kinds of problems, from overheating after two CDs and shutting down, to cutting off the last five seconds of every song.

* When my fuel gets low, a little light that says "CHECK GAGES" [sic] lights up.

* Pushing the button to activate the sunroof causes the headliner to flex. With pressure, it will flex over a half-inch.

* after one year and 18,000 miles, the brake pads wore down almost to the metal and gashed up the rotors, and the brake fluid was dangerously low. The service guys said afterward they couldn't find the fluid leak despite repeated tests. I now basically drive on faith.

* After 18 months and 20k+ miles, the door fell slightly out of hinge again, and the door trim pried the moulding off of the front fender, ruining both the moulding and fender.

* And this techincally isn't a QC thing, but I still don't understand how a vehicle can get 40 real-world mpg on the highway, but average 24 at most in mixed/city driving.

Peace
policy

I believe I could create an equally-long list of issues with my 2004 RX-8, but I'm sure this wouldn't surprise most of you. However, your Sunfire sounds like a real POS. One thing I should mention about the reliability study is that it found that while American cars in general made drastic improvements, there are still certain models that fared poorly, particularly models that are long overdue for a redesign.

If you sell the 8, you'll no longer be in that elite rotary group.

LOL. The elite rotary group? You think anyone besides rotary owners considers us an "elite" group? J/K, I know what you're saying. It is cool to have something unique. I don't think it makes us elite though.

RX8-Buckeye--no harm no foul not trying to insult you--sorry if I did as well--For alot of people those surveys work fine--but for me they don't provide enough information to be useful. Also its not a few personal experiences--I lurk on forums and hear the good the bad and the ugly--of course that is where people come to vent issues, but your own discretion comes into play to know if said problem is widespread. Not to be confused though--I don't take all the negative press from a forum and run with it and make claims that a car is unreliable--but I note recurring issues with cars. I did the same with the 8 before I bought it--ironically I have had like 10% of the 'issues' other folks are having with there 8--so far its been my most reliable car--contrary to what the statistics say--maybe I have a reverse lemon though :confused: :p At the end of the day its about being a smart consumer--Out of all the cars I've had--those reliability studies have had little benefit for me, they just are not informative enough--I'd still get a C5 Vette but the knowledge gained about its mechanical and other issues will not be gained from JD or Consumer Reports. Statistically-as you've shown-they may have merit; however all my personal experiences have not lined up with their findings. Besides with such a new vehicle as the RX8 how accurate can early stats be?

Well this is all still going to depend on how much I can sell the RX8 for. Anyone think $23K is too much? Everything but Navi on mine and has 20K miles, new tires, and flawless body condition. I take great pride on washing/waxing/detailing EVERY Sat... even during the week when we have the 5min thunderstorm here in houston. :-)

Any suggestions on a price? If I do sell it, it will be in a few months. My brother still has to find his but last night he said he is thinking of a 07 Z06 now. So who knows.... may have the Rx8 till 100K miles. hahahaha.

Thanks for everyones input.

Ed

I could/can get a new left over 04 GT w/NAV for $26k. A loaded GT w/o Nav I could get for $25k or so new left over.

I would say with 20k on the clock you might be able to get $20k-22k for it. A lot depends on if you find someone who does not know the market and thinks paying $23k for a 1 year old car with a sticker over $30k is a good deal. If you have to wait, it will likely get worse. Once the 06 8 are on the way or here then MazdaUSA will have to increase incentives to move out the unsold 05s. So you will be competing against a few new 04s and lots of new 05s with thousands of incentive money on them.

I love the 8, but since Mazda can' sell them then neither can the owners :confused: .

Interesting note: the residual on a new S2000 promo lease after 3yrs/36k miles is 59% of MSRP. Guess what the residual is on an RX-8 2yr/24k mile promo lease? You got it - 59% - and MAC will give you an extra $2k if you do the lease. So Honda thinks the S will return the same percentage of MSRP in 3 years as MAC thinks the 8 will retain in just 2. Not even Mazda/MAC have confidence in the future value.

Dennis

that really sucks that a $32K car loses $12K in value in about a year and half. doesn't say much about the RX8 does it?

anyways, KBB.com says trade in on my car is $21,850 and private sale is $25,010. That is why I asked if $23K was a reasonable deal. Who knows huh......

Thanks,
Ed

I wouldn't call it a no brainer, I think I'd be concerned more with paying 20K for a car thats nearly 6 years old. I agree with Ike that you can't just expect the vette to break though. If you're that hungry for power, Pay a few more grand and get an 05 Mustang GT and she's all yours with waranty. Otherwise, I'd say hang on to the 8..it has a bit more utility than the vette I'd say....

A better way to find out price than KBB is to look on Autotrader or one of the online car browsers and see how much cars similiar to yours are selling for in your area. That is unless your KBB value is high and you manage to force it on the dealer.

Many of these decisions you have to make yourself. For a car as good as the Vette what amount of time and money are you willing or able to have it in the shop. Does having the peace of mind of a more reliable car really help you, etc.

Actually, looking at the other ads shows what others are ASKING for similar cars in your area. Most of the time you have to accept less than the asking price (been there, done that).

Also, as a private party sale VS all the dealers running ads you and I are at a disadvantage. For one thing, we don't have the title in hand (assuming the car is financed, which in this case it is) and we can't offer financing help like a dealer can. So for some folks if we had a car for sale the same price and miles as a dealer, they will buy the dealer car. Now me, I would rather look the owner in the eye and talk to them before I buy - so I would tend to take the private party car. But that is just me.

Dennis

Yeah I remember selling my Jeep Liberty at carmax. It was the easiest transaction I have ever done. They gave me excatly what kbb.com said trade-in value was; go figure. Later I did see my former Jeep on carmax.com selling for $2K more. I DID go autotrader.com route but I did not get one response to it. oh well.

I'm probably gonna go via carmax to sell my Millenia S in the next few weeks.

Yeah if carmax will offer me $22k for the 8.... I'm going Vette.