Bifman

So I bought my 09 RX-8 a little over a year ago, and while I absolutely love it, I can't get over my nagging desire to drive a turbo...and my other want for a convertible.

After commissioning with the Navy and moving from WI to Florida, I was looking at trading/selling my 8 to get into an S2000 or Z4, but my full warranty lasts through May 2013 and power train will go until 2015, so I don't think I can give it up. Plus it's just too damn great of a car.

I recently came upon a Velocity Red 04' MSM with only 47,000 miles on it for just under $11,000. With my current situation, i can put about $1500-2000 into savings each month and thankfully don't have any student loans, so I could pretty easily afford it (could even just pay cash, although my savings would be close to gone). I also feel like I'd have a hard time losing money if I only held onto it for the time I'm in Florida.

I bought myself a motorcycle after moving down here, but with all the gear they make us wear, I'm hardly getting any fresh air. More importantly, I'm pretty sure a 2-seat roadster will be a lot safer and more fun with the babe. I won't do any mods to my 8 because of the warranty, but could have some fun turning a wrench on the Miata. Lastly, my girlfriend (almost fiancee) drives a beater and I wouldn't mind letting her take it on occasion. After all, it still is a chick car

I hope I don't sound like an *** sharing my finances and all, but I'm just wondering if some older and wiser folks have any thoughts. The RX-8 and MSM sound close in performance, so maybe i'm just stupidly trying to duplicate my current vehicle.

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!

monchie

Get it! You don't need our opinions...its your money, not ours...good luck!

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

That's my current pair of cars:


Stock to Stock, the RX-8 is hands down the better car still. The turbo adds ~30hp over the normal NB, but it's got a short redline and slow spool, and is the heaviest Miata that Mazda ever made, (not counting the loaded PRHT), so the 8 can still hold it's own in acceleration and trumps it easily in >80mph speed and acceleration. It's also far smoother, far more refined, far more utility, etc...

However, that being said, the 8 doesn't have a drop top for those fantastic days and the 8 is ~500lbs heavier than the MSM.

Once you start modding the MSM, the above goes out the window in a hurry. The basic MSM bolt ons (available all together from FM for $1,700) bumps you to a similar peak whp point as the 8, and while your power band is only 2,500rpm still, you have a better power to weight and a dramatically better torque to weight. Start modding the suspension and the MSM can take the stock 8 in pure handling, either sheer grip or weight transfer, though a modded suspension in the 8 brings it back roughly equal. The big difference between the two will be the speed at which it's comfortable. The 8 is in it's element from about 40mph to 80mph, or higher the bigger ***** you have. The MSM is in it's element from more like 20mph to about 60mph. Higher than that you HAVE to be in the high gears (The MSM's gearing vs MPH has 6 gears in the space of the RX-8's first 4), in and out of boost constantly on transient throttle is less than pleasant on the stock ECU. For less than the cost of an RX-8's forced induction though, the MSM can go to a top notch ECU plus a far better turbo that will allow better spool, far more power, better transient response, etc... (~$5,400 for everything to need in 1 kit). I hope to be able to do this in the spring.

If you want turbo power, it's actually a bit cheaper to get a normal NB and stick an FM turbo on it than to get an MSM. But then, there is quite a bit about the MSM that you can't easily get with an NB, namely the front bumper, the extra factory stiffening (though it's also weight) and rarity (if you like being 'exclusive'. I do, mine is one of 426 Black Mica MSMs ever made world wide ) The MSM also doesn't appear in blue book values, it's too rare. So they hold their value VERY well. You can still get clean low mileage MSMs without overpaying for only ~$5,000 less than original 2004-2005 MSRP, which considering many of them were sold with $3,000 off, that's incredible. Even the "lower" end of $11k should get you a good MSM, and you would still be able to sell it for that price for a few years if needed.


All in all, the MSM is what I was looking for as my DD instead of the 8. 50% better gas mileage with a 450 mile a week commute, but still awesome fun.


Good luck with your decision

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

RIWWP, a most excellent review. I've driven both and you are very accurate in description.

Paul.

Bladecutter

Since others have already covered the Miata aspect of you're post, I will cover the most important part of your post:

You're doing the motorcycling thing wrong.

First off, if you take off that gear, the Navy will have your ***, and the small fact that if you and your girly go bouncing down the road, you will literally have your *** scraped off your bodies. So keep the gear on.

Second, you live in Florida, so its not like you have the most exciting driving roads on the planet for either a motorcycle or a sports car. Cruising with the top down has it's own level of pleasure, but still doesn't compare to the bike.

And finally, having gear on yourself and your favorite play-toy leads to one thing after a long hot, sticky ride:

Peeling those pieces of protective gear off of your girl after the ride.
Nothing better, I tell you.

I've been riding for 20+ years.
It doesn't get old.

BC.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

I sat in a MS Miata, in the dealership showroom, while my 8 was in for service. I'm 6'2" and my eyes were level with the top windshield frame. The top of my head was above any point of the car. I was unable to adjust the seat, so I don't know if the seat can be adjusted downward. I have driven other series MX5/Miata and have had no problems in them.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

The seat is only forward/back, though at 6'1" my eyes are near the vertical center of the windshield. Waist up vs waist down height ratio difference I think. With the seat the whole way back, my knees are less than an inch from the dash on each side of the steering wheel. Enough clearance to be comfortable, but just barely.

j9fd3s

i like the Mazdaspeed Miata too, this one time at the dealership they gave me the keys to one on friday, and expected me to show up at Miatapalooza on sunday morning.

i went out to detail, and the thing had 65 miles on it, and i think i returned it with like 565miles

its FUN! the power delivery is a little weird, but on a curvy road it takes less driver

Bifman

I'm thinking I may just have to pull the trigger on this. I've been yearning for a convertible, and it feels like a very low-risk investment given the rarity of the car and how well priced this one is. Any thing I should be aware of when I go to see it on Saturday?

RIWWP - out of curiosity, what do you use your RX-8 for if the MSM is your daily? I had this in mind as well as I commute 200-300 miles/wk and the gas bill just sucks getting only 18 mpg.

MazdaLife

Miata holds value well! Especially in FL. If you want convertible chop the top on your 8, or get a MIATA. You'll be cruisin for free when you see how easily it sells in FL when the RX9 comes out

j9fd3s

its a miata, look for oil leaks, you want to know when/if the timing belt/water pump has been done. other than that, just look for crash/flood/hail damage.

the MSM must get better mileage than the 8, and the top goes down

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

The single biggest worry point for failure in the MSM is the turbo itself. Otherwise it's a pretty solid proven Miata. The additional stuff isn't critical that a failure could leave you stranded (like driver features) or is structural that "can't" fail (like bracing). The key points that make it different than any other NB Miata is the turbo, (which changes the intake system and exhaust as well, but they aren't any worse or better than a normal NB), deletes the VVT system from the head (similar to the 99-00 which never had it, though it uses the 01-05 head design, just without the VVT), added bracing, stiffer suspension (Blistein shocks with incorrectly matched springs), stiffer sway bars, and improved transmission (gears are ball pean treated and 4th gear is faintly different in the ratio). So in general there isn't parts to really worry about other than the turbo.

The turbo is a worry because Mazda had IHI (a reputable company) make them a 1-off that is not compatible with any other inlet or outlet turbo housing out there, and de-speced the assembly to inferior bearings/shaft in the turbo itself. Why? No real idea. Turbo failure is always on the hot side, with the turbine shaking itself to pieces that destroy your cat. I would worry more about the RX-8's engine than the MSM's turbo though, especially if you run premium synthetic oil in the engine, as that will help hold off the turbo's issues. If the turbo fails you are looking at ~$1,700ish to buy a new one from a dealer or IHI, ~$900-$1,000 to buy a used one (rare and they do get in-demand). A down-side to having a production run of ~5,400 turbos instead of 10s of thousands. Upgrading the turbo is either a custom job (costing more) or a complete replacement setup including the turbo, manifold, down pipe, hard lines, and intake. FM's cheapest conversion is $2,700. Checking turbo shaft play is really the only way to determine pending turbo failure.


The 8 frankly doesn't get driven much any more (outside of the recent clutch failure I had that is currently keeping it from being driven at all). My wife doesn't work so doesn't really need her own car, though having a car on hand for her to use is useful. Since the 8 is paid off, there is no reason to trade it for a different car. It's on pace for ~3,000 miles a year right now. I might have traded it for my MSM, except I had a 99 Miata that was causing me no end of issues that I was REALLY sick of dealing with. At some point the 8 will probably go into either long-term storage, get traded for something a bit more "useful" (like a CX-5), or I might transplant the drivetrain into a different vehicle (). I'm still very attached to my 8 emotionally, it has enough space and utility for our needs, and there isn't a financial reason to part with it, so it stays for now. The future might change any one of these at some point, but likely not for at least another year.

My biggest complaints about the MSM are the gearing (it drives rotary-high in revs, but with a 2,500rpm lower readline and isn't thrilled about being at light load above ~4,000rpm, and with the upgrades it can pound the 6th gear fuel cut at redline of ~124mph indicated, ~116 actual) and how the stock ECU has issues with the airflow of the basic boltons. I would certainly prefer to have a rotary in it, even NA, but that would be counter productive to the mileage needs at the moment. The 8 feels heavy now. Not slow, still love cruising in it at speeds that the MSM is wrung out for, but the extra weight is very very apparent for me now. It's an unpleasant aspect to the 8 now, rather than being just a theory (of lighter would be better).

Bifman

So disappointing. The MSM i had eyes on was a joy to drive, but the exterior and interior were so abused. At least I know this is one model to have on the list! Now it'd S2K or MSM or bust!

j9fd3s

i don't remember (or never knew!) what gears are in the diff, but i agree stock is pretty short, although Mazda has had lots of different ratios to choose from, or maybe a taller tire would help too?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

It's a 4.10 rear end.

A taller tire can help, but only so much, and going with a taller tire is a huge drawback in rolling weight. One of the first recommended mods is to get rid of the heavy 17" rims in favor of lightweight 15". Shedding as much as 7lbs per corner is crazy noticable on an MSM.

This is indicated speed at redline for the MSM without any gearing changes: (6,500rpm limit vs 7,200 limit for the normal NB, due to airflow and fueling issues with the turbo)
The speedo is off to begin with though, and goes farther off downsizing appropriately. (unless you get 60-70 sidewall tires), so the speedo reads about 6% high.

With a better power to weight than the 8, redline arrives in a hurry in any gear.

A very popular mod is to swap to a 3.63 gear (which was what was stock in the Australia MSMs), which changes it to:
And upgrading to an aftermarket ECU to raise the redline with the gearing change, assuming fueling and airflow are taken care of:
First gear isn't a stump puller any more, your highway cruising is down to around 3,000-3,500, and you can actually hit the aerodynamic limit of the MSM (high 120s, low 130s actual speed) on the track. There are plenty of tracks out there that you would be sitting against 6th gear's rev limit down a part of the front straight with basic bolt ons.