Rx8 Or 350Z..
12-18-2003, 07:24 PM
#101
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Originally posted by TownDrunk
Oh brother... Some folks just try to read too much into other people's posts. Take my posts at face value (I'm not trying to rip on the other cars) or don't take them at all. Boo hoo hoo...
Oh brother... Some folks just try to read too much into other people's posts. Take my posts at face value (I'm not trying to rip on the other cars) or don't take them at all. Boo hoo hoo...
12-18-2003, 07:36 PM
#102
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Originally posted by wakeech
all these can be traced back to a single condition of this engine: MNAO has this ECU spec'd too rich. this is fact. we have ideas why, but are secondary to the condition that the RX-8 is currently in.
canzoomer's mod will fix this. i don't usually make absolute statements like this, but i am sure that these specific problems, dealing specifically with the engine, are extremely solveable and caused by conditions extraneous to the design, manufacture, or operation fo this motor.
all these can be traced back to a single condition of this engine: MNAO has this ECU spec'd too rich. this is fact. we have ideas why, but are secondary to the condition that the RX-8 is currently in.
canzoomer's mod will fix this. i don't usually make absolute statements like this, but i am sure that these specific problems, dealing specifically with the engine, are extremely solveable and caused by conditions extraneous to the design, manufacture, or operation fo this motor.
Still, Mazda cannot simply use Canzoomer's ECU reflash as it will burn out the Cat much quicker than EPU regulations allow. ECU reflashes are also available (or can be developed) for many other cars, so the RX8 will still be at a relative power disadvantage if both cars have reflashes.
Originally posted by wakeech
now the heat and air conditioning are legitimate issues, and those ought to be adjusted in following model years.
the flooding issue: symptom of rookie ownership, overrich ECU tuning, and the coldstart sequence.
complete engine failures?? tell me about one engine that never broke
it happens, and the issues specific to those individual failures will have to be resolved as the engine evolves...
i'm not saying it's perfect, and i recognize how disappointingly far from perfect it is, but there's no doubt in my mind that this motor isn't unbelievably brilliant.
now the heat and air conditioning are legitimate issues, and those ought to be adjusted in following model years.
the flooding issue: symptom of rookie ownership, overrich ECU tuning, and the coldstart sequence.
complete engine failures?? tell me about one engine that never broke
it happens, and the issues specific to those individual failures will have to be resolved as the engine evolves...i'm not saying it's perfect, and i recognize how disappointingly far from perfect it is, but there's no doubt in my mind that this motor isn't unbelievably brilliant.
12-18-2003, 08:13 PM
#103
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Originally posted by revhappy
The "face value" was "looks".
The "face value" was "looks".
12-19-2003, 10:01 AM
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Looks matter. Anyone who's done any dating should realize that. The STi and Evo deliver race car performance at a reasonable price. They also look like what they are: Heavily modded econo-boxes.
There's nothing wrong with liking that look, but there's also nothing wrong with pointing it out.
There's nothing wrong with liking that look, but there's also nothing wrong with pointing it out.
12-19-2003, 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by MMGDC
Looks matter. Anyone who's done any dating should realize that. The STi and Evo deliver race car performance at a reasonable price. They also look like what they are: Heavily modded econo-boxes.
There's nothing wrong with liking that look, but there's also nothing wrong with pointing it out.
Looks matter. Anyone who's done any dating should realize that. The STi and Evo deliver race car performance at a reasonable price. They also look like what they are: Heavily modded econo-boxes.
There's nothing wrong with liking that look, but there's also nothing wrong with pointing it out.
12-19-2003, 10:31 AM
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Or you could be perpetuating that myth rev, by suggesting that those of us who have chosen the RX8 are not interested in performance simply because we didn't pick YOUR favorite to purchase..
12-19-2003, 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by Psylence
Or you could be perpetuating that myth rev, by suggesting that those of us who have chosen the RX8 are not interested in performance simply because we didn't pick YOUR favorite to purchase..
Or you could be perpetuating that myth rev, by suggesting that those of us who have chosen the RX8 are not interested in performance simply because we didn't pick YOUR favorite to purchase..
12-19-2003, 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by Psylence
Or you could be perpetuating that myth rev, by suggesting that those of us who have chosen the RX8 are not interested in performance simply because we didn't pick YOUR favorite to purchase..
Or you could be perpetuating that myth rev, by suggesting that those of us who have chosen the RX8 are not interested in performance simply because we didn't pick YOUR favorite to purchase..
12-19-2003, 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by jdmlover79
if you looking for good looking and performance then go for z but if you looking for more room, good looking, smoothness, rareness (i don't see many rx-8 yet on the street) and girls ^^ (i saw a lot of girls looking at rx-8 when i was test driving one) then rx-8 is better.
this is my opinion ^^
if you looking for good looking and performance then go for z but if you looking for more room, good looking, smoothness, rareness (i don't see many rx-8 yet on the street) and girls ^^ (i saw a lot of girls looking at rx-8 when i was test driving one) then rx-8 is better.
this is my opinion ^^
Ummm here in Austin I've been seeing more and more 8s on the street granted it was rare for most of 03 but I think thats not so much the case anymore. How many has mazda sold in 03? I know that Z sales in North America are about 50K for this year...for comparison
12-19-2003, 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by revhappy
The theme of many posts on here are that looks are more important to the point is that they would buy a car that looked great and drove like crap. That is why a "vain" reputation is in the cards if this continues.
The theme of many posts on here are that looks are more important to the point is that they would buy a car that looked great and drove like crap. That is why a "vain" reputation is in the cards if this continues.
None of the cars I've seen mentioned in this thread drive like crap... in fact they range from well above average to jaw dropping in performance.
If the RX-8 drove like an '83 Plymouth Reliant, I'd be hearing ya, but that's not really the case. However, I'll concede that if you're intent on making your life an ongoing tribute to 2Fast2Furious then yes, you'd be silly to get an RX-8.
Different wants, different needs, different cars. No right or wrong answers.
12-19-2003, 02:07 PM
#111
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Originally posted by MMGDC
None of the cars I've seen mentioned in this thread drive like crap...
None of the cars I've seen mentioned in this thread drive like crap...
Are we losing so much perspective??
12-19-2003, 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by revhappy
Still, Mazda cannot simply use Canzoomer's ECU reflash as it will burn out the Cat much quicker than EPU regulations allow. ECU reflashes are also available (or can be developed) for many other cars, so the RX8 will still be at a relative power disadvantage if both cars have reflashes.
I hope the potential is there as this engine would be a dream if this is true. Unfortunately, at least in production cars in recent years, the rotary has been dissapointing from a broad, holistic viewpoint.
Still, Mazda cannot simply use Canzoomer's ECU reflash as it will burn out the Cat much quicker than EPU regulations allow. ECU reflashes are also available (or can be developed) for many other cars, so the RX8 will still be at a relative power disadvantage if both cars have reflashes.
I hope the potential is there as this engine would be a dream if this is true. Unfortunately, at least in production cars in recent years, the rotary has been dissapointing from a broad, holistic viewpoint.
the potential IS there, and i find it extremely hard to believe that you can say the 13BREW was a broad disappointment!!
i think the biggest problem with the rotary is that it's applied incorrectly: too many comprimises are made for people who aren't "getting" it, but i suppose that's the only way you're gonna sell very many of them. too bad, really too bad...
12-19-2003, 03:05 PM
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"True", other cars might have and ECU reflash, Canzoomers is a piggyback unit. but the whole point of his research and mod is that Mazda severly detuned the car due to emissions compliance, this also happened to hold back a lot of H.P. canzoomer is tricking the stock air/fuel ratios to allow for 25 to 50 W.H.P. depending on stage, I doubt your going to see that much improvement with another car with a reflash as that cars H.P. is pretty much at full potential anyway, unless you start adding some meat, such as internals, extrude honed, cams, pistons, headers, intake manifolds and forced induction.
12-19-2003, 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by wakeech
*sigh* i don't give a flying crap if Mazda fixes it or not, 'cause people who're willing to sacrifice more (like noise, fuel economy, emissions equipment longevity of a car they're not going to keep for more than 5 or 6 years, etc) to get more will do just that: make the damned thing into exactly what they want.
*sigh* i don't give a flying crap if Mazda fixes it or not, 'cause people who're willing to sacrifice more (like noise, fuel economy, emissions equipment longevity of a car they're not going to keep for more than 5 or 6 years, etc) to get more will do just that: make the damned thing into exactly what they want.
Originally posted by wakeech
the potential IS there, and i find it extremely hard to believe that you can say the 13BREW was a broad disappointment!!
i think the biggest problem with the rotary is that it's applied incorrectly: too many comprimises are made for people who aren't "getting" it, but i suppose that's the only way you're gonna sell very many of them. too bad, really too bad...
the potential IS there, and i find it extremely hard to believe that you can say the 13BREW was a broad disappointment!!
i think the biggest problem with the rotary is that it's applied incorrectly: too many comprimises are made for people who aren't "getting" it, but i suppose that's the only way you're gonna sell very many of them. too bad, really too bad...
12-19-2003, 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by JimW
"True", other cars might have and ECU reflash, Canzoomers is a piggyback unit. but the whole point of his research and mod is that Mazda severly detuned the car due to emissions compliance, this also happened to hold back a lot of H.P. canzoomer is tricking the stock air/fuel ratios to allow for 25 to 50 W.H.P. depending on stage, I doubt your going to see that much improvement with another car with a reflash as that cars H.P. is pretty much at full potential anyway, unless you start adding some meat, such as internals, extrude honed, cams, pistons, headers, intake manifolds and forced induction.
"True", other cars might have and ECU reflash, Canzoomers is a piggyback unit. but the whole point of his research and mod is that Mazda severly detuned the car due to emissions compliance, this also happened to hold back a lot of H.P. canzoomer is tricking the stock air/fuel ratios to allow for 25 to 50 W.H.P. depending on stage, I doubt your going to see that much improvement with another car with a reflash as that cars H.P. is pretty much at full potential anyway, unless you start adding some meat, such as internals, extrude honed, cams, pistons, headers, intake manifolds and forced induction.
12-19-2003, 11:38 PM
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Originally posted by austins2k2003
Ummm here in Austin I've been seeing more and more 8s on the street granted it was rare for most of 03 but I think thats not so much the case anymore. How many has mazda sold in 03? I know that Z sales in North America are about 50K for this year...for comparison
Ummm here in Austin I've been seeing more and more 8s on the street granted it was rare for most of 03 but I think thats not so much the case anymore. How many has mazda sold in 03? I know that Z sales in North America are about 50K for this year...for comparison
You can see the sales reports at:
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/031202/25745_1.html
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031202/latu099_1.html
12-20-2003, 03:55 AM
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The RX-8 is a lot more luxerious car than the 350Z. If you want raw horsepower for bragging rights, I would get the 350Z. But if you want a car you can relax in while you drive fast, then the RX-8 is for you.
I was just thinking tonight on my way home from coffee how much I liked this car. It was cold out and my wife and I both had the heat warmers turned on. We were playing a nice ambient music CD which sounded great on the 300watt Bose radio, it really surrounded us with rich sound.
The dash looks great at night, and I love how there is a blue flash as the needle increases on the tachometer, its like the red needle is moving so fast it gives an effect of some sort. The inside of the RX-8 is just very plush and feels very expensive, like a BMW.
The 350Z has ugly yellow lights on the dash, a very weak stereo and no leather seats (except for the touring model). It just doesn't feel like you are getting your money's worth.
The RX-8 feels like a classic sports car with an emphasis on refinement, not raw power. It looks great, feels great and moves.
The 350Z is more hardcore in my opinion. It looks mean, the engine accelerates like a muscle car and eventually will just wear you out, especially on long drives.
And just for the record, the RX-8 was on Car and Drivers 10 best cars list, came in second to the Evo for Automobile Car of the Year, was Kiplingers car for 2004, beat out the 350z in the Edmunds article.
Test drive both cars and ask yourself if you reallt need that big engine feel the 350z gives you. Because if you don't race, there is no need for that engine, especially in the city. Wouldn't you rather be driving in a comortable car with the music system sounding good and the moonroof open? :D
Plug over.
I was just thinking tonight on my way home from coffee how much I liked this car. It was cold out and my wife and I both had the heat warmers turned on. We were playing a nice ambient music CD which sounded great on the 300watt Bose radio, it really surrounded us with rich sound.
The dash looks great at night, and I love how there is a blue flash as the needle increases on the tachometer, its like the red needle is moving so fast it gives an effect of some sort. The inside of the RX-8 is just very plush and feels very expensive, like a BMW.
The 350Z has ugly yellow lights on the dash, a very weak stereo and no leather seats (except for the touring model). It just doesn't feel like you are getting your money's worth.
The RX-8 feels like a classic sports car with an emphasis on refinement, not raw power. It looks great, feels great and moves.
The 350Z is more hardcore in my opinion. It looks mean, the engine accelerates like a muscle car and eventually will just wear you out, especially on long drives.
And just for the record, the RX-8 was on Car and Drivers 10 best cars list, came in second to the Evo for Automobile Car of the Year, was Kiplingers car for 2004, beat out the 350z in the Edmunds article.
Test drive both cars and ask yourself if you reallt need that big engine feel the 350z gives you. Because if you don't race, there is no need for that engine, especially in the city. Wouldn't you rather be driving in a comortable car with the music system sounding good and the moonroof open? :D
Plug over.
12-20-2003, 04:39 AM
#118
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Originally posted by Ioman
The RX-8 is a lot more luxerious car than the 350Z. If you want raw horsepower for bragging rights, I would get the 350Z. But if you want a car you can relax in while you drive fast, then the RX-8 is for you.
And just for the record, the RX-8 was on Car and Drivers 10 best cars list...
The RX-8 is a lot more luxerious car than the 350Z. If you want raw horsepower for bragging rights, I would get the 350Z. But if you want a car you can relax in while you drive fast, then the RX-8 is for you.
And just for the record, the RX-8 was on Car and Drivers 10 best cars list...
But yes, I agree w/you Ioman on many of your points although I don't feel the Z's yellowish dash lights are ugly. Yeah, the Z is definitely more hardcore.
I just did an interesting comparo on some stretches of highway (some if it very bumpy) w/my Z, riding in my friend's RX-8 [not driving it, I can't drive stick worth beans.. please don't shoot me] and my 02 Maxima. I will say it was an interesting progression.
The RX-8 definitely has a smoother ride (not really bouncy, whereas my Z is) than my Enthusiast Z and the engine and exhaust sound NOTHING alike. What's funny is in the RX-8, I feel like I hear mostly exhaust noise and little engine noise. There was a bit less road noise in the 8 than the Z. Also, the noise from the rain splashing in the wheel wells was a lot quieter on the 8. The door sills aren't as high in the 8 so you don't feel like you're sitting as low as you are in the Z. As I mentioned before, the 8's interior is definitely of far better quality than the Z. In an underground parking garage, you can definitely hear a really nice throaty exhaust noise from the Z. The 8 sounds totally different and DOES sound turbine engine like.
The Max has a way smoother ride than either, has less engine and exhaust noise than either (even though it uses the same engine as my Z, it doesn't sound anything alike). You sit higher in the Max it has a non-sporty exhaust sound.
For me, if if the 8 had a bit more power, got rid of the rear doors (looks funny to me, or if it just looked like a Z), and there were no engine probs, I'd be more inclined to buy it. But yeah, I can see the appeal of the 8.
12-23-2003, 03:59 AM
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The Z, and even the G35C scream sports car. I've ridden in all three of the cars, and driven the 6MT G35C. They all have their good and bad points...the RX8's bad point being that it dosen't "go fast" but the engine is so responsive, I'd think you'd have to be a speed freak to care. The Z and G both have an extremely seductive exhaust note. It was actually designed to mimic the sound of a V12. The RX8 just screams rotary when you floor it. It sounds more like a rotary than my friend's old Turbo II.
IMO, the RX8 has better interior materials than the 350Z and G35C. The G has pretty stiff roll motions, probably due to the wide tires on it. The suspension reacts quickly to bumps. The Z is even more reactive to bumps as spring rate up front is twice as high as the G...in fact, some 350Z owners complain about "porpising"
Like Jeremy Clarkson's cohost said, the Z is a "big BUTCH car". It feels sporty, but in a very hefty sort of way. When you change the gears, it feels like you're shoving huge heavy industrial gears around, and when the torque pulls you into your seat, it's like a freight-train. In contrast, the RX8 dances lightly on it's feet, dosen't bruise your *** when you come off a driveway, and happens to be a nice place for all the passengers.
IMO, the RX8 has better interior materials than the 350Z and G35C. The G has pretty stiff roll motions, probably due to the wide tires on it. The suspension reacts quickly to bumps. The Z is even more reactive to bumps as spring rate up front is twice as high as the G...in fact, some 350Z owners complain about "porpising"
Like Jeremy Clarkson's cohost said, the Z is a "big BUTCH car". It feels sporty, but in a very hefty sort of way. When you change the gears, it feels like you're shoving huge heavy industrial gears around, and when the torque pulls you into your seat, it's like a freight-train. In contrast, the RX8 dances lightly on it's feet, dosen't bruise your *** when you come off a driveway, and happens to be a nice place for all the passengers.
12-24-2003, 10:30 AM
#120
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Originally posted by Elara
Well, there's no recalls at all on the 8 so far.....
Well, there's no recalls at all on the 8 so far.....
shhhh! don't talk bad about the 8 or you will turn into a troll
12-24-2003, 10:52 AM
#121
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Big deal a FEW engines have blown. From what I read its a very small insignifigant number. I can point to threads on the S2000 board and the 350Z board that had engines replaced under 6000 miles.
when the 99 miata came out ALOT of engines were lost due to the #4 bearing issue those were all fixed.
I believe in the RX-8 and what mazda is doing. Good, bad or indifferent the rotary is what put mazda on the map. Its the one thing that sets the "RX" series apart from every other car. Its a very unique car, nothing looks like it, nothing drives like it.
What is it that makes a car special? Sure car and driver put the Rx-8 on the 10 Best list (notice 350Z is NOT there). Its got the best reviews I have seen since the Rx-7 in late 1992. Despite having low power it has managed to win its comparisions with the competition? Notice that every single review talks about how on paper its nothing special but when you drive it you realize what a sports car is supposed to be?
The only thing the 350Z has on the rx-8 is alot of low end torque. Big deal the 350Z can do low/mid 14's and is roughly 3/4 of a second faster than a Rx-8 with same skill driver. The 350Z isn't exactly fast either. You want power and speed neither car is that great, but as far as being fun to drive, handling, agility and character we know who the winner is.
when the 99 miata came out ALOT of engines were lost due to the #4 bearing issue those were all fixed.
I believe in the RX-8 and what mazda is doing. Good, bad or indifferent the rotary is what put mazda on the map. Its the one thing that sets the "RX" series apart from every other car. Its a very unique car, nothing looks like it, nothing drives like it.
What is it that makes a car special? Sure car and driver put the Rx-8 on the 10 Best list (notice 350Z is NOT there). Its got the best reviews I have seen since the Rx-7 in late 1992. Despite having low power it has managed to win its comparisions with the competition? Notice that every single review talks about how on paper its nothing special but when you drive it you realize what a sports car is supposed to be?
The only thing the 350Z has on the rx-8 is alot of low end torque. Big deal the 350Z can do low/mid 14's and is roughly 3/4 of a second faster than a Rx-8 with same skill driver. The 350Z isn't exactly fast either. You want power and speed neither car is that great, but as far as being fun to drive, handling, agility and character we know who the winner is.
12-24-2003, 11:05 AM
#122
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Originally posted by dtmf
No just that little pesky buy back thing/engine flooding/blown engine/15 mpg .....
shhhh! don't talk bad about the 8 or you will turn into a troll
No just that little pesky buy back thing/engine flooding/blown engine/15 mpg .....
shhhh! don't talk bad about the 8 or you will turn into a troll
As for your little jab, there- ever so clever of you to ignore the actual facts. The buy back didn't have to happen- Mazda was NICE to everyone. They were well within their rights to go "oops, we screwed up, sorry about that, here's the real hp." and leave it at that. How many other companys have done that and actually tried to make good on their mistake? Engine flooding hasn't happened the majority of us, and the same goes for the blown engines. We have heard a rumor that there have been as many as what, 70 total? Out of more than 10,000 cars now floating around? And we don't have any hard proof from Mazda or anyone else (no offense Canzoomer).
There are no more issues with this car than any other first year run. And there are no recalls. So what's your point?
12-24-2003, 11:05 AM
#123
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Has anyone seen the info re the 350Z's front end problem? Seems that the front suspension has something out of wack that causes premature wear of the front tires. There hasn't been any recall, but as I understand, Nissan is replacing tires under warranty while they try to find a way to correct the alignment problem.
The point being, all cars have some problems, particularly new ones. I've owned upteen dz cars and have yet to find the perfect one. Up to this point (4,500mi.) however, I haven't experienced any problems with my RX-8. Doesn't mean I won't, but none yet. My Miata has been trouble-free for 18k miles (recalled for the foglight bracket), including 6-7 autocross events. Oh, the OEM tires sucked and were replaced at 11.5k miles.
Comparisons aren't worth a whole lot in my book. A "good" car is one that you like to drive, be seen in, and isn't in the shop all the time. JMHO.
The point being, all cars have some problems, particularly new ones. I've owned upteen dz cars and have yet to find the perfect one. Up to this point (4,500mi.) however, I haven't experienced any problems with my RX-8. Doesn't mean I won't, but none yet. My Miata has been trouble-free for 18k miles (recalled for the foglight bracket), including 6-7 autocross events. Oh, the OEM tires sucked and were replaced at 11.5k miles.
Comparisons aren't worth a whole lot in my book. A "good" car is one that you like to drive, be seen in, and isn't in the shop all the time. JMHO.
12-24-2003, 05:00 PM
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I'd be curious to see those threads on 350Z forums. I can't think of any on lightly or unmodded Zs that needed new engines.
As for 10Best, the Z was on there for 2003. See http://www.caranddriver.com/article....ticle_id=2423. As for 1/4 mile... there's a lot of variation, but the fastest stock time I've seen so far is 13.73. It seems to be in the very high 13s or low 14s unless the driver was lousy or they were at high altitudes and/or high temps.
Originally posted by zerobanger
Big deal a FEW engines have blown. From what I read its a very small insignifigant number. I can point to threads on the S2000 board and the 350Z board that had engines replaced under 6000 miles.
What is it that makes a car special? Sure car and driver put the Rx-8 on the 10 Best list (notice 350Z is NOT there). I
The only thing the 350Z has on the rx-8 is alot of low end torque. Big deal the 350Z can do low/mid 14's
Big deal a FEW engines have blown. From what I read its a very small insignifigant number. I can point to threads on the S2000 board and the 350Z board that had engines replaced under 6000 miles.
What is it that makes a car special? Sure car and driver put the Rx-8 on the 10 Best list (notice 350Z is NOT there). I
The only thing the 350Z has on the rx-8 is alot of low end torque. Big deal the 350Z can do low/mid 14's
12-24-2003, 05:07 PM
#125
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Originally posted by Elara
IfThe buy back didn't have to happen- Mazda was NICE to everyone. They were well within their rights to go "oops, we screwed up, sorry about that, here's the real hp." and leave it at that. How many other companys have done that and actually tried to make good on their mistake?
IfThe buy back didn't have to happen- Mazda was NICE to everyone. They were well within their rights to go "oops, we screwed up, sorry about that, here's the real hp." and leave it at that. How many other companys have done that and actually tried to make good on their mistake?
http://www.auto.com/reuters/2002-09-...Z_01_N0922.htm
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...dai_power.html
Mazda did it before:
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m.../article.jhtml