Musings on sports car market
 

The new Toyota concept got me thinking again. They claim they are working for lightweight, but with all that gizmology going on (hybrid blah blah) and the current trend for bigger and heavier cars, when is someone going to get it right? I am not actually a 100% fan of a single new sports car though there are lots of nice ones.

I am still waiting for someone to build something light, rwd, and with decent power. Something like the Cayman but at a realistic price. The S15 which was never brought to the States was that very car. I feel like we keep getting left out.

Lightweight, in the 13's, great handling, good road feel, compact, rwd, sporty looking, every day car.

I am convinced whoever builds this car will have a winner.

350Z - too heavy

RX-8 - not enough power

Corvette - too big

Elise - not practical enough

Cayman - perfect, but too expensive

M Coupe - close!

TT - not sporty enough, fwd basis

FD - not reliable enough. I guess this is what I really want, but new and a little more reliable. :(

Of all the cars, the 8 is the closest for me. Just. More. Power.

Easiest thing to fix at least. I wait on good ecu tuning (of factory ecu, not replacement)

Can anyone name anything closer to my goals? Am I asking too much?

As it is, at this rate, in another year or so I am probably going to keep the 8 as a daily driver and pick up an elise as a second car.

Don't think the Toyota will be a lightweight car ( <3000lbs, as if that is lightweight :) ). Battery packs are heavy. The only way they can keep it on the 3100 - 3200 lb range is to use a lot of composites (CF, polymers etc) And if they do that, there is no way they can sell that car at 30K. If they really make a 400 HP hybrid in the 3100 lb range, looking like that, I will pay 50K for it.

You are right, cars are getting heavier by the day. The 335i coupe is nice, but it weighs more than 3500lbs. The new TT looks promising ~3000 lb range for the quattro. If you are looking for a lightweight car at a reasonable price that looks good, I can't think of any.

It is too bad that no company is making a car like this. A new S15 type car or hardtop Miata/Solstice/Sky with a decently sized trunk would be at the top of my list when it comes time to buy a new car if it is reasonably priced. The Kabura (if it's ever produced) might fit the bill, as might a Solstice or Sky coupe. Of course, I see the turbo versions of these cars getting pretty close to $30,000, which put them in 350Z and Evo/STI territory, which just makes any decision even harder. A new MR2 sized more like the 1st or 2nd gen than the recently retired Spyder might also do the trick, but this would definitely be only a 2-seater with limited storage space.

When you say the Corvette is too big, do you mean feel wise or actual size? It's not all that much bigger than the Cayman (~2" length and width, might even be a little shorter than the Porsche though), but has a much longer wheelbase and so feels much larger than the Cayman does. Still not very reasonably priced, unfortunately, especially when compared to an S15 or Miata/Kappa (though the extra cash is well spent on a Corvette IMO).

The C6 Corvette is smaller than a 911...

funny how you need less power with less weight for same fun. THe problem with weight in cars in general is it is a bad side effect of all the platform sharing. Its hard to build a dedicated sports car platform without high cost (porsche). light weight is better everything, but automakers seem to want to just add power instead as its cheaper (how funny is that)

Mazda at least built a lightweight sportscar platform. Personally, as far as the future is concerned, I think the RX8 or Kabura with a TC is your best bet for lightweight fun.

The Kabura will at least have the miata drivetrain, so that makes for all kinda of aftermarket potential

The corvette is headed in the right direction - lighter, smaller. Having been in one, I like what they have done, but it still feels big, as you mention. Other than that big feeling, it had less road feel than I would have liked. Certainly fast but not fun to me.

The 911 is headed in the wrong direction with the rest of the market - bigger heavier. The only 911 I like is the GT3. Amazing the corvette is becoming the compact lightweight option.

BMW really scares me. The M6 weighs. with cf roof, just under 3800lbs. Wha?? I can only imagine the new M3 is going to tip the scales at least as high as the 335 (over 3500lbs) with a V8.

As for the Solstice/Sky, I never understood how a roadster can weigh 3000lbs. This is just getting silly.

Even compacts are fat. The MS3 is 3150 and the new Civic SI coupe is just under 2900lbs. The old Integra Type R was faster with less power and much less weight to throw around. If I had to go fwd I would much rather drive a Type R.

I think if Mazda made a coupe of the Miata and put a rotary in it, I would be happy. 2500lbs, 2 seats, some storage, high redline, rwd, usable, and 240hp or so with a reasonable cost would do wonders.

Where is that Kabura?

I couldn't agree more. I wish the automakers would get serious about reversing this trend of increasing weight. This will require the use of lighter materials that are typically more expensive than steel, but this is something that we should at least be willing to pay for in a sports car. No? We are starting to see the use of aluminum, carbon fiber, etc... here and there in some cars, but the use of these materials can still be more widespread. Who knows? We might even see some price declines when the economies of scale increase.

That would be a good start. I would like to see Mazda be even more aggressive with the weight reduction and produce a Renesis powered sports car that is even lighter than the MX-5 Miata.

Cheers

I'd vote for the Elise, (or better yet the Exige) exept for one thing ...

There is no way in hell I can justify a $50K car when I can get a similar power/weight ratio (and about the same storage space) on a $9K Sportbike

E46 M3 or NSX... Done.

as far as new vehicles on the horizon are concerned, I don't see much in the way of light weight that is reasonably priced except the Kabura/MX3 and possibly the new 350Z. If your talking sub 3000lb, Mazda will be the only game in town. Fault Mazda for what you want, but lightweight is something they do well, prolly explains all the love for the Miata and older 7's ont he road.

I'm hoping they can shave 100lbs or so off the 350Z with the new model, as I read somewhere that was going to be part of the design revision.

Look at GM's booth in a couple of weeks and I'd put money down that they will have either a Sky or Solstice coupe concept on display. Lutz has more-or-less said they are doing it but not exactly in those words.

i'd so like a cayman if someone would buy it for me.

From what I understand it takes 3 hp for every 2 pounds of added weight to maintain the same "quickness".

The problem (I think) is simply technology. The more we add to a car the heavier it gets. Even if it is for safety. Lotus achieves light weight for increadable power to weight at the expense of size, comfort, and cost.

A fun project car for me would be a the 1st gen Miata na chassis with a 13b rew. Go with a fender flare kit on it to accomodate 10 inch wide tires, build the motor to puch 250-300whp, good suspension set up and call it a day. Easy 12 second car that will run cirlces around evo's sti's at the track all day long.

You're still spending 50 grand either way. Maybe less for a used M3 or a REALLY old NSX. Late model NSX's (1997+ which gets you more HP) with less than 40,000 miles are selling for around 50-55k.

I agree the Cayman is close to ideal. I would love to see someone do a comparison between the Cayman and the Rx-8.

I know the 8 would come in second, but how far behind? Is it fordidden to compare the 8 to the Cayman in magazine-land? Are the Porsche fanboys afraid of the comparison?

And basically, what parts do I need to get to the level of the Cayman/Cayman S?

I agree that light weight is an essential part of the equation (I am a Lotus fan, with a practical streak when it comes to dollars).

I heard that they made some sort of quasi-announcement that they'd be producing a Solstice coupe in the near future, but I haven't been too on top of things lately. Hopefully it's true :)

It all depends on the power:weight ratio. For a 3:2 power:weight ratio, this is true, but no car I know of has this kind of power:weght, except for the purpose-built pro drag racing cars. For a car like the RX8, you'd need to add a little less than 8hp for every 100lbs you add to the car to maintain the same quickness.

The M3 is also quite the fat car. Awesome machine, but not quite a nimble sports coupe.

There's the answer, I think. Of course, it has to exist first.


Outside of that, on your list, at a "realistic" price is the RX-8. Just needs power. If Nissan could shave the Z to be under 3000lbs, that would be viable. But power can always be obtained, trimming fat - not so easy.

I've read that the new Supra and Skyline (GTR) will be in the neighborhood of $70k.
That's not over-priced?

In 07-08, American Muscle will be making some new changes. I'm looking at the new Challenger.

So, we have aluminum and carbon fiber for weight reduction. From what I have heard aluminum is not cheap anymore and CF is in the same boat. What other options do automakers have for building lightweight cars(including meeting safety requirements)?

Build smaller cars.
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Laguna Bay II Condo

The other piece is spending more than 10 minutes to design and test the frame. It's not just the engine that makes the RX-8 light. It's partly because they designed and analyzed the frame very carefully and didn't just pile on steele everywhere to make it sturdy or safe. They shaved weight and built the frame with low polar moment of inertia in mind.

There's always the grandaddy of lightweight and strength--Titanium. Magnesium is great too, but if it ever gets hot enough to combust, that fire'll last for weeks.

I think car makers are taking designing ques from motorcycle companies. That is, using the engine, drive train, etc. as a structural member of the frame. Larger diameter, thinner walled, materials and attempting to reduce unsprung weight. I doubt we'll ever see a production car with a Ti frame, but here's to dreaming.

A titanium frame would not be very cost effective. It costs a ridiculous amount of money to machine titanium. It would probably end up costing more than a carbon fibre frame, and not be as rigid or as light.

So we go smaller, but in the land of McDonaldization where is that going to get us. I did love the Nagare concept for the seating, but for most of us commuters out there, take out the extra seats. Give me something that I can take the seat out (like a carseat) or something and make the car focused on driving. I sure don't need room for 5 in my car(Mazda 6).