Is Mazda in the USA just STUPID!
 

Yes it is a headline grabber.

For those who said a Mazda 6 Wagon 2.5 TURBO did or does not exist then what is this..from Australia.


For Mazda in USA, what the heck ARE you doing, many want a WAGON yet you will not offer it, but it is good enough for Mazda Australia to import it, and Mazda Motors Europe (non Turbo).

You say you want to differentiate yourself from mainstream, but clearly you are going with the SUV crowd.

NOW the Mazda 6 has a Turbo this IS the time you should be importing a Turbo Wagon into the USA.

The moment the 2.5LT was available it shouldve been placed in the entire lineup of course optionally. None the less the entire line up would be more popular with more power.

Yeah, we need fewer Shitty Uninteresting Vehicles on the road. More wagons, please.

Seriously, I am considering "IH8 SUV" as my custom license plate just to piss all the SUV drivers off, LOL.

That said, I am not sure how well the 2.5T is selling. Usually, the take rate on the more powerful engine on mid-size Sedan is like 10%~20%. Remember that Mazda ditched the V6 6 for a while before having 2.5T as an option again.

In USA initial sales of the 6 Turbo Sedan in first month was over 4000 units.

Mazda ditch the 3.7l V6 as it was a Ford engine license and a gas guzzler and now with no association with Ford (apart from the last of BT-50/Ranger for another 12 months), then Ford is completely gone.

Mazda was not prepared to invest in a Skyactiv V6, IMO a huge mistake, even with the very good 2.5 T 4 cylinder.

Car brands still need a V6 for large and heaving hauling of people...a 2.5T 4 cylinder are fine for 1 or 2 people in car, load it up with 6-7 adults and luggage and it struggles.

No matter what voodoo car makers say in marketing, there is No getting around simple HPW (Horse Power to Weight) ratios.

Ah, gotcha.

Regarding the V6 point, you have no idea how much of a heated argument that was for a while on the Accord forum I go to. Honda had some pretty solid V6s in the Accord and yet, they ditched the 3.5 V6 for a 2.0T I4T. Even the base engine option is changed from 2.4 to 1.5T.

But heh, those driving Shitty Uninteresting Vehicles with the pathetic 1.5T or 2.5 engines are fine, I don't see how that's a problem with Sedans.

And what about turbocharged engines' low-end torque? Wouldn't that help with hauling stuff?

Torque is not HP

But torque * RPM = power, so better low-end torque = better low-end power.

Take the RX-8 for example. When you wing it out all the way to 9000 RPM, yeah, it feels pretty quick, but keep it under 3k RPM and it feels gutless. That's where a little extra low-end torque would have helped.

One of my friends did make a point that he'd only want to get something with 200+ HP because a car with less than that will overheat when trying to pull a car full of people uphill, but he doesn't have a preference with turbo or NA. So a 1.5T or 2.5 wouldn't satisfy his needs, while 2.5T and 3.5 would both have done it for him.

V6 is a dying breed in mid-size Sedan. 99% of the people will be better suited with an I4T, really, seeing how most people don't see past 3k RPM. The new Camry V6 may have 305 BHP, but I'd be shocked that 0.01% of the beige mobile driver ever uses that kind of power.

Leave the high-end power with sports cars.

The Mazda/Ford relationship is very strange in respect to powertrains. Ford's modern V6 architecture was originally engineering by Mazda, with certain changes made to suit their displacement and manufacturing cost targets. Same for the MZR engine and their current ECOBOOST inline4's. Ford redesigned the head but most of the block is the same and there is significant cross-compatibility between them even to this day.

It will be interesting to see where Mazda goes in the coming years. Due to their size and managing costs, We may not see much beyond the range of 4-cylinders, though there is a chance a V6 or inline-6 could be developed eventually, should they have a use-case for it. I fear that is more likely than a new rotary-powered sports car. Mazda may see the turbo'd Sky-G and the upcoming Sky-D motors as their answer to the previous need for more cylinders. A Sky-D would be a suitable small-truck engine, should Mazda decide to bring the Ranger spin-off, or their own dedicated truck to the states.

My lease is up on my 6 next summer (mazda typically lets you trade up 6 months before the end of the lease). It sure would be nice if a turbo AWD wagon was available...

Basically got it narrowed down to:

Signature trim Mazda 6 (new, 2.5 i4 turbo)
Used BMW 5 series (4.4L V8 twin turbo)
Used Audi A6 (supercharged 3.0L v6)

All three options will land at about the same price. However only one of these is FWD...

Having a wagon available would make the choice easy.

It's the 'enthusiasts' that want wagons, the general consumer thinks they're ugly. I've asked many non-enthusiast shoppers about their opinion on wagons. I would say the general American consumer is stupid. They want tall crossovers because they want to feel in command with their tall ride height and large greenhouse.

I don't blame Mazda for not having a wagon variant. Looking at the lack of success and discontinuation of MANY wagons from other manufactures (TSX, Accord, CTS-V, Magnum, etc), the Mazda 6 wagon would probably be the lowest volume selling vehicle by Mazda in the US if they do bring it here. The only wagons that sell in the USA are Subarus, and they're more like CUVs than actual wagons.

What SNTP said...

Catering to a tiny enthusiast niche is not a recipe for a success for a small manufacturer.

I saw the thread title and instantly knew it was Ash's thread.

That being said:
x1,000!
wagons are ugly, stupid, and we as americans could frankly give a shit about them. I'm sorry but we're not EU or Australia where you guys like them, we don't, plain and simple.
We want crossovers, SUV's, trucks, and big cars.
Now, we could argue all day which of those is actually a better car but that's not what drive's the average car buyer. They shop with their eyes first and (for whatever reason) wagons in America have never been something that has appealed to the masses.

So, no. Mazda is actually smart by not bringing another vehicle to the US that wouldn't sell.

9/10 American opinions of wagons contain at least one of the following statements:
- Looks like a hearse (funeral car)
- Looks like my grandpa's station wagon
- Ew, they're ugly
- I'm not a grandma/pa



I like wagons only because my enthusiast counterpart says so. I honestly see myself rocking a CX-5/9 over a Mazda6 wagon nowadays. You'd be surprised at how much a difference the added ride height and pushed back C pillar helps with loading in a child to the backseat. I'm sure every parent agrees, and these are the same consumers cutting checks at the dealership to manufacturers for their CUVs.

Yep! Now, a turbo AWD variant, that is something even regular consumers can get behind. Even if it was just the N/A motor, it is silly that they don't offer AWD given how much of this country sees snow and inclement weather.

The most niche enthusiast car ever:

Brown mid-size AWD 6MT V6 turbodiesel wagon in brown.

Seriously, wagons are mostly dead in the US. Nobody but us weirdos (there are DOZENS of us!) want one and there's no way Mazda could recoup even the regulator costs of certifying one here based on the tiny market share of a hundred oddball car enthusiasts.

Hell, even VW couldn't justify bringing the V6 TDi B5 Passat wagon here and they are huge and already had the wagon in the states. One guy wanted one bad enough that he sourced the parts from Europe and built it himself.

After living in Europe for several years, it's almost shocking how few wagon choices there are in the states. It seems like 90% of the vehicles out here are hatchbacks, most being wagons.
I'm not looking forward to buying a daily whenever I get back to the states...

hawk: you can have a Subaru wagon. :lol:

The Outback is more of a crossover now, and the Legacy isn't available as a wagon anymore. The only decent real-wheel drive wagon I see is the BMW but in the states its only a luxury brand and a steep price. They don't have the nice cheap ones like they do in Europe.

OMG, The Mazda 6 WAGON is not UGLY!....good grief some of you guys have blinkers on...;)
You called a 6 Wagon UGLY but want to buy a CX-5, yeah right, but I guess there is no consideration for taste.
US is the land of the UGLY ;).....those US made /designed cars of the mid 70's to 88 were stunners..

I think it looks good. Problem is it's front wheel drive, and not available in the US.

Methinks the mod doth protest too much... ;)

I see some VW Sportswagen every now and then. If you are really cheap, get yourself a Volvo 850 Turbo wagon.

I don't think anyone here is saying it's ugly. They are just saying that an average consumer does for some reason.

And you think American cars are ugly? Pfff. You clearly haven't seen a Nissan Juke, Cube or the older Leaf(new ones actually look okay).

Being (for the most part) a practical person, I would have bought a Mazda 6 wagon instead of the sedan if it was available in North America, the added cargo space and ease of loading large items like ladders, lumber and other gear is great. I am continuously borrowing the wife's wagon when there is stuff to be done. The discussion on whether or not the wagon looks good is an endless loop but personally the sedan looks better. For all the winter conditions that I drive in it is rare that a FWD with good winter tires will not get me through, granted we don't usually get large snowfalls, more of a build up of small amounts and the main roads are well plowed.

I really wish I could get a "ManWagon" for US$30-something-k here. Something with at least either HP or lb.ft above 300 either in RWD or AWD with a RWD bias (i.e. Nissan/Infiniti's ATTESA E-TS Pro).

Hell, just give me a G37x/Q50 in a wagon or hatchback formfactor and I'd buy it right now.

outside of Subaru the only real wagons in the US are the Merc, Volvo and Buick. Personally, without the Mazda 6 wagon in the mix, the winner is the Volvo v60 or v90

My friend has a Volvo V60 (possibly Polestar). It's pretty awesome.

2.5T is continuing to have Performance and Reliability issues.
CX-9 owners are reporting lack of engine power.

Well it looks like the Manifold (exhaust) 3 port flap actuator is jamming or the pivot shaft has issues and or flaps..
I believe due to heat.
There is a 'new' modified unit and PCM reporogramming to 'address' these issues.

MY Opinion I wondered how long it would be before things like this cropped up, mechanical flaps so close
to exhaust and it's heat can be problematic...I hope they get on-top of this....and fast.




https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...790c426da4.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...34d05c341e.png

Well, at least it's not dropping gas into engine oil unlike a certain other turbo engine from another company...

Other countries get more interesting vehicles for 2 (EDIT: 3) reasons:

1) Looser safety and emissions regulations.
2) More predictable driving conditions.
3) Most of them are connected by land.

North America is a huge vehicle market with tight regulations and wildly unpredictable weather compared to most of the world, and our imports have to be hauled across the ocean to get here. We also depend on our cars a lot more than most countries, and we are easily upset by unscheduled maintenance. This means it's a high-risk market with the potential for enormous losses if a vehicle isn't super-unreliable or isn't extremely popular.

Australia is just as large mate and rely on cars just as much as USA....I really don't get the weather part, so Europe does not have cold or wet or hot and neither does Australia or New Zealand?
And yes all our cars are now all imported, Ford, GM, Nissan, Toyota, Mitsubishi all shut plants here.
China makes and sells as many if not more cars than USA?
Regulation really not a lot of difference now between USA and EU, Australia uses EU regs now, next to zero difference in safety, in fact the current Ford Mustang imported in Australia from USA only gets 2 star rating, same in EU because Ford USA does not add all the electronic safety systems, like BSM, RCT Alert, Lane Departure, Radar Cruise.

Ash: is this happening mainly in Australia or in other markets as well?

Pics are out of USA

There are about 35,000 of these in USA right now, so what about the cost?
I will say this again, Mazda needs a V6, not this flappy crap, yes it is technically interesting,, clever, BUT...not reliable and never will be.

V6 is a lost cause at this point. Honda just ditched the 3.5 V6 for the 2.0T on the Accord, and Ford just killed the V6 Mustang, so it's just 2.3T Ecoboost and 5.0 V8 now.

I like me a good V6, but most consumers don't really know the difference between a V6 and an I4T. An I4T can be pretty good in a family car when done right.

Besides, being a small company with a smaller lineup, how many vehicles can use a V6 in the current Mazda lineup? Mazda also has to make a V6 engine from scratch. Not worth the cost IMO.

The cost (design) is really not that much with Mazda's current Skyactiv CAD design and tooling/manufacturing processes which are state of the art.

And what about the cost of virtually All 4 cylinder Turbo's, Mazda is the only one I know with this Exhaust Flap that Turns open with an actuator to obtain the low RPM tourque.
NOT the same as run of the mill 4T's by other brands.

How many models...
Well Mazda 6, CX-5 and CX-9.
There was a time in the 1990's when Mazda had 3 to 4 V6's in their line up from the MX-3 (30X) a SWEET 1.8 litre V6, plus 1.6l and 2.0l and I think a 2.5l , 3.0l V6.
So this 'small' company could do it then and can do it now.
As I said The Cost of this Exhaust manifold will be enourmous as AFAIK the 'repair' will only ever be temporary.
Then there are the dealers who slightly over-tighten a Cylinder head bolt by 25 Degrees and CRACKS the Cylinder Head, another Cost.

These Skyactiv Engines ARE so finely made and has next to zero tolerance to over/under torquing.

Anyway..... As much as a I love Mazda they make Stupid decisions.

BTW: My bet is when this new Mazda-Toyota Plant starts in Alabama you will see a V6 in a big new Mazda SUV with a Toyota Engine.
Possibly the replacement CX-9..?

Every car guy loves the tiny V6 MX-6 had... Just like Honda's 4WS on the Prelude from the late 80s. But from an average consumer POV, it makes no sense.

Also, making a V6 available probably means they may also have to redesign the engine bays of the vehicles you listed(I doubt the CX-5 will get it). I know the older Honda Accord engine bays were really designed for the V6 so both options can fit. If you look at the current Accord, there is no way you can fit a SOHC V6 in there, let alone a DOHC V6.

Toyota is sticking with the V6 because, well, that's Toyota for you. They will only follow the trend if the technology can last 30+ years of ownership.

Did you ever drive Mazda's 1.8 V6 in the 30X or MX-3, in the 1990's, were you born then? :)
Seriously the discussion is moot....no car brand like Mazda can afford major warranty work like this 2.5 Turbo appears to be costing Mazda right now.

Since the Skyactiv range of engines we (rest of world as USA did not have any Mazda Diesels) have seen Major engine failures in the 2.2 SA-D's in Australia and Europe and Japan, to the point where some owners here had their cars fully refunded.
Skyactiv Auto transmission Bearing failures, new Auto Transmissions.
ND Miata/MX-5 Manual Transmission failures, plus every Soft Top has had 'wearing and alignment problems'.
This after the massive RX-8 engine failure cost, which is still happening for a few more years.

In my decades with Mazda I have never seen such a avalanche of Major repairs costs, my Mazda Parts manager who took over from me says the same,
He has been in Mazda Parts for 30 years.
It concerns me that new young Mazda Engineers are not testing long enough Before green lighting production.
This 2.5T 'Lack of Engine Power' problem should never have happened if it was tested correctly in the real world.
Lastly then comes 'Brand Reputation' can be more damaging than just losing money, losing loyal customers can destroy a company.
Anyway...

No, I haven't, but it doesn't take a genius to figure why it died. More parts, more manufacturing cost for advantages that average consumers don't give 2 cents about.

But I agree, it should have been more throughly tested before coming to the market. Honda's 1.5T engine oil level concern and now Mazda's 2.5T exhaust concern should be a lesson to all.

Lack of thorough testing seems to Mazda's MO. They had issues with rising oil levels in the SkyActiv-D. Huge issues with the Renesis.

I'm honestly surprised that Ford is still pushing a V8 Mustang. I'd have expected them to go I4T and V6T/V6TT by now.

Mazda are figuring out that "interesting" doesn't really sell. Saab tried to stay "interesting" and died. Subaru dumped "interesting" and went mainstream.

What are the other problems that the 2.5 T engine is also having?

BC.

Well then I hope the Skyactiv-X isn't too bad when it comes out.

And V8 American muscle/pony is a symbol. They can make I4T/hybrid Mustang all they want, but there will always be a V8 option until the car itself dies or ICE gets banned.

There are some qualities you can't replace with a V6T. Not replacement for displacement, as they say. Just the V8 growl and no turbo lag should be a valid reason.

Here is another one, that I hope most know about.....Mazda's stupid decisions.............

When initial Engineering Stats were distributed to all Mazda Techs @ Distributors World-wide,
the ND/ MX-5/ Miata was ONLY ever going to get the 1.5 Litre Engine...NO OTHER OPTIONS.

Then Mazda NAO and MA stepped in and said that a 1.5 Litre engine simply does not have enough POWER for the US Market.
Mazda Australia said the same thing, the 2.0 litre was the sole option for the NC.
After much arm twisting MMC Japan relented and tooled up the 2.0 litre engine for the first ND Production release.

And now we see a beefed up (HP) 2.0 Litre new engine for the 2019 ND2 MX-5.
YES, it is ALL Marketing ploys to sell more Product, but to have a starting point of ONLY offering a 1.5 Litre again is/was just stupid!.
What does the competition offer again... Oh the Toyota 86 (Scion), Subaru starts with a 2.0 Litre engine

I am actually kinda baffled when you said this. I thought you'd understand Colin Chapman philosophy.

So what, Lotus Elise is a crap car because it only has an NA 1.8L Toyota engine? Pfff, who cares it's only 800 kg heavy, right?

As for BRZ, read any review and you will still see people complain about its lack of power. Why? While it may have 205 BHP, it's also 1200~1300 kg heavy. The ND Miata is only 1050ish kg. And what about gas mileage? Sure, "it's a sports car so no one cares", but everyone has emission standards to meet. BRZ's gas mileage is somewhat close to a V6 from what I have seen.


Video may be old, but it's not like they changed BRZ significantly over the years.

Sounds like you could use an S2000.

Hey mate, can you do me a favour and stop trolling my comments...it is becoming somewhat a pain :)
Please don't get upset, I am 3 times your age and I don't need to be lectured.

How am I trolling? You mentioned FR-S/86/BRZ as a competition, and I point out the problem. It's a heavier car, and gets the same complaint: it needs MOAR POWAH!

I do respect older people, but just because you are older, doesn't mean you are right. Argue with facts, please.