I just assumed that the ES and the IS would, because of their market segments, be naturally targeted as high sellers for Lexus. Both have been disappointments, the IS especially because of the tail-off in sales the last year that Lexus DID NOT foresee (because they underestimated the new products the competition would bring out), and the ES because its conception was a misconcepton from the get-go. The RX must be a pleasant surprise for Lexus, definitely.

Well, I think everyone is in agreement that the IS has been a disappointment for Lexus in 2004.

And as I qualified in the Sonata thread, I have no biased affections for Hyundai as their cars have been total SHIT so far aside from the current Tiburon, which is SHIT everywhere except for the exterior. Mark my words. This all new Sonata is a breakthrough for Hyundai. I believe I'm the only person on this forum who has seen them in person and on the road. And as I said in the other thread, place your bets. I've placed mine. Let's see what happens.

I'm not impressed by the ES at all--it is a Camry with a really nice interior--I was more of a fan of Lexus in 1998 when they still had the SC300/SC400, GS400/GS300, and previous ES300. Hopefully the new IS will be mostly carryover from that LFS concept.

Gambit, that is a hot pic. I've never seen that before. If that's the new IS, then it's going to be a winner. And it's probably packing quite an engine, right?

From that pic, it looks like a cougar/camry. I'm sure it will be better than the old IS. It had too much boy racer look in it.

Here's a shot of the back...I haven't heard anything about the new engine, other than it's going to be a V6 instead of an I6. I also heard something about offering an IS430 (with a V8) in the current body style to generate enthusiasm for the new model. They probably won't do it though.

The IS was disappointing in the respect that Lexus REALLY wanted to knock the 3-series off its pedestal, and even though the IS is a kickass car, they couldn't do it. The 3-series has too much of a good, longstanding reputation and owner loyalty, as well as the BMW brand name, not that Lexus is anything to sneer at. The 3-series also has the IS beat in choices, since there's two engines, 2 or 4 doors, and a convertible. The new IS should have a coupe and sedan variant, and they've been talking about a hardtop convertible (seen on the LF-C concept)

I don't know why you think Toyota could not predict a slide of sales for the IS. They haven't changed the car in 5-6 years, anyone with half a brain could predict this. I just don't feel it was at the top of their proirity list.

Fair enough. So it seems Toyota has a way to go to be really PERFECT. They are the most feared carmaker but they do have many holes in their line-ups, which has given other companies room to find niches and breathe. It's amazing they can be so profitable with so many holes. The ES and IS are their combined tag team to take a bite out of the 3-series, yet it seems they were never given enough attention, while Infiniti gave its G35 sedan and coupe a ton of attention and look at the positive results for Infiniti. And as we know, there is no let down with the 2005 G35's. Add in cars from Acura, Mazda, Ford, Mercedes, etc., and this leads me to ask: What the hell is Lexus doing? I can think of two things. One, they extended their resources to the brink with the Scion projects. Two- and this just came to mind- they planned it to be that way all along. Could the current IS have been a baiter car for the new IS all along? That's what Ford did when they brought out that POS Mondeo just before they first brought out the last generation "rounded look" Taurus. That's what Ford did with the GT supercar just before they brought out the new Mustang that looks similar in many intricate ways. So the current IS was a "sacrificial lamb" because Toyota has the resources to sacrifice a car in the belief it would take the psychology of two generations of cars to kick the 3-series ass?

So are you trying to say it's a different engine?

That IS and its engine options, combined with cars from Infiniti, Mercedes, Mazda, Audi, and Acura, is going to kick the new BMW 3-series' ass. Hopefully.

You really need to move on... Oh, and don't ever consider a career in marketing.

think he's saying they are the same due to similar output. what is this FMIC you were talking about?

Why on earth would you even group Mazda in with those other manufacturers? The 3 series will lead the market for years to come, it has earned its reputation and it's not going to get its ass kicked by anything. At least not as far as sales go.

no--I should have clarified--it is the same engine--just saying that its in its N/A form.

Since it's the same as the N/A supra engine it takes very well to FI and there are a fair amount of turboed IS300s out there. FMIC = front mount intercooler, which means is has a turbo. :)

The reason I say that is because in 2003, at least in southern California, the IS really seemed to be taking off. The car was everywhere around here right alongside the BMW 3-series. It really seemed to be getting some traction and the feeling where I live was that the car would get to the next level in 2004. Which never happened. In fact the reverse happened. So this two-year dichotomy, in my mind, can not be same ol' same ol' status quo in Toyota's eyes. Even if Toyota never expected this generation's IS to be that hot, they certainly could not have expected the dip for 2004.

Because of Mazda's emphasis on making an MPS or Mazdaspeed version of many of its cars. Just like Subaru and Mitsubishi. Without Subarus in various levels of high performance trim, what do you think people would buy? Perhaps a BMW 3-series?

It seems to me that the 3-series' impenetrability was first penetrated by the Infiniti G35 sedan and coupe. It's the same for sharks and other animals. I think just about every respectable car company (so that means American carmakers are not included) is going after the 3-series now in a tacit or explicit group effort to hunt down the 3-series. This is what Apple and Motorola and IBM did with the PowerPC alliance in response to Intel Pentium. This is what the European alliance is trying to do to the US. BMW is vulnerable now. And I hope they lose more market share. Not because I've always had something against BMW but because I have something against a car company with such incompetent decision-making so as to allow Chris Bangle to get away with it.

I like the looks of the IS300 personally. I think that Lexus really should have come out with a hotter version though. 215HP from a 3.0L 6 just isn't competitve in the market.

Well--it use to be at least--cause the 330 made 225HP and the C320 made 215 as well. The 270HP TL and 260-280HP G35 blew that away. Also the next 330 should have 255HP--while the base engine will make 215 or so HP.

Right, that's exactly consistent with my point. Why would Toyota do that? The 240 HP Accord has been out for a couple years already. And you can't just play around or between BMW 3-series numbers if you want to take a bite out of the king. Infiniti's G35 went beyond 3-series numbers. Toyota knows what it has to trump and could have if they wanted to but they didn't. So was the current IS just a baiter car for the new IS all along?

"That IS and its engine options, combined with cars from Infiniti, Mercedes, Mazda, Audi, and Acura, is going to kick the new BMW 3-series' ass. Hopefully."

Ike is right. Mazda is not a luxury car manufacturer like the ones you mentioned. Mazdaspeed's emphasis is on performance not luxury. And in luxury you can subtract Mazda and add Lexus, Lincoln and Cadillac.

My my, nitpicky, aren't we? It's a combined attack. The combined thinking of many carmakers can change, create, influence the socio-cultural mindset or zeitgeist of the time.

On the one hand, you have a bunch of carmakers focused on affordable luxury better than ever before- Infiniti, Acura, Audi, Cadillac, Mercedes, Ford, Chrysler, etc. Next thing you know, the entire population is focused on affordable luxury.

Secondly, you have a bunch of carmakers focused on more and more affordable performance and power than ever before- Infiniti, Acura, Audi, Cadillac, Mercedes, Ford, Chrysler, MAZDA (MPS and Mazdaspeed), etc. Next thing you know, the entire population is focused on affordable performance and power.

The zeitgeist has been changing the last one or two years and Mazda is a part of this. And this had been almost exclusively BMW 3-series' personal domain for a while. I'm telling you, Mazda is a part of this gestalt.

I guess my first statement didn't sink in, car companies don't make "baiter" cars. They try to make good cars that they thing they can make money on, and sometimes make status or brand defining cars that won't make big money but will improve image which in turn, you guessed it, makes money. BMW has always been more about status and luxury than it has hp figures. They make great engines but they have never been the fastest cars for the money or had the most horsepower. So even if Lexus puts 350hp in the new IS it's probably not going to matter whole lot. BMW has done an amazing job with building and maintaining their brand image, and that's the #1 reason people buy them. Take a 3 series and put another badge on it and sudenly it's not nearly as appealing.

Funny you should mention marketing.

You're giving me a headache.