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Are Ford and GM really that bad?
Found an interesting article posted a few days ago. It can be found here. Discuss...
Originally Posted by Article
Private Sector: Perceptions aside, GM, Ford can stand proud Tuesday, December 19, 2006 By Roger Simmermaker Ford and General Motors have taken turns besting the Toyota Camry in quality surveys for the past two years, but if you talk to many Americans -- especially the ones who would never consider supporting home-based auto companies -- you'd never know it. Last year, the Chevrolet Impala beat the Camry in initial quality, according to J.D. Power & Associates. And Consumer Reports just announced that both the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan scored higher than both the Camry and the Honda Accord this year. After the announcement, Ford's Director of Global Quality Debbe Yeager, referring to the struggle American companies have had overcoming the perceived and seemingly untarnishable reputation of their foreign rivals, commented: "It's a perception gap." Even as GM and Ford have accumulated award after award on vehicle quality, you'd almost never know about such quality gains made by American companies. The re's also the mythical perception that foreign automakers produce the most fuel efficient cars and that Detroit only makes gas-guzzlers when the truth is that all automakers -- including Toyota, Honda and Hyundai-Kia alike -- have allowed fuel economy to slide in the past 20 years since they all now sell bigger trucks and more SUVs. Perhaps the biggest perception problem is that American automobile companies GM and Ford -- Chrysler is now German-owned -- squander all their money on plants overseas and foreign automakers build their factories in the United States. Foreign car lovers will surely point to Kia's plans to build its first-ever U.S. plant in Georgia, but they probably won't mention that they received $400 million in tax giveaways to do it, which translates into $160,000 per job. Among the many benefits for the foreign-owned company, your tax dollars are going to be used for road improvements surrounding the complex, complete with flower beds and other beautification features. Hey, as long as we're going to allow states to bid for private jobs with our public tax dollars, we might as well make it look good, right? And the foreign car lovers will probably also not tell you (or maybe they just don't know or don't want you to know) that GM and Ford pour more money into existing American facilities than foreign automakers spend on new plants, usually with little or no tax breaks. GM has already spent more than $500 million upgrading two transmission plants this year, and has spent nearly a billion dollars over the last decade, for example, for facility upgrades in Texas. And what do GM and Ford get for making their existing plants more efficient? It isn't tax breaks. Instead, they get accusations of not being "competitive" enough! Maybe here I should also mention that the average domestic parts content for Kia is 3 percent, while the average domestic parts content of Ford and GM is 78 percent and 74 percent, respectively. This means that buying a U.S.-assembled (or even foreign-assembled, for that matter) GM or Ford supports more American jobs than a U.S.-assembled car or truck with a foreign nameplate. Fortunately for our benefit, the United States remains the overall global leader in research and development, and a big reason for that is that American automakers. According to the Level Field Institute, U.S. car companies invest $16 billion in research and development annually, outpacing any other industry one could name. Admittedly, the Level Field Institute counts German-owned DaimlerChrysler as an American automaker, so Ford and GM's combined R&D contribution to America is closer to around $12 billion. But who's counting, right? Certainly not the American auto-bashing media. Japanese companies do employ 3,600 American workers in R&D, but that still leaves the foreign competition behind in the dust staring at American rear bumpers -- 3,600 sounds like a big number until you realize that 65,000 Americans work in R&D facilities in the state of Michigan alone. In fact, two of the top four R&D spending companies in America as reported by the Wall Street Journal are -- you guessed it -- Ford and GM. The other two are also American companies: Pfizer and Microsoft. Ford has recently made headlines as the American automaker with the most challenges to its future, but these challenges certainly are not because they "aren't making cars people want to buy." Toyota did outsell Ford in July, but since then, Ford has reclaimed the No. 2 spot. GM has the highest market share, increasing over 2 percentage points from a year ago, so it apparently can't be accused of not making cars people want to buy either. Ford sales also are up in Europe, and Ford doubled its sales in China, where GM has the highest market share of any automaker. GM also reported a 3.9 percent rise in August vehicle sales despite high gas prices and a supposedly slowing economy. And even though Toyota reported record sales that month, it couldn't match the non-record setting sales volume of Ford. GM's sales rose 17 percent in October from the year-ago month and Ford sales rose 8 percent the same period. And for all the talk about the lack of fuel efficiency of American automakers, it seems three-fourths of all automakers failed to meet Europe's improved fuel-efficiency standards intended to cut carbon-dioxide emissions. Japanese and German automakers topped the list of the study's worst performers, but according to an environmental group's study, GM's Opel division and Ford both "come out well." In closing, I'll leave some encouraging numbers for those of us who actually like to root for and support the home team. The J.D. Power 2006 Vehicle Dependability Survey reports that Mercury, Buick and Cadillac (in that order) grabbed the No. 2, 3 and 4 spots to beat Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW and everyone else (except Lexus) in having the least number of problems per 100 vehicles. Perhaps someday the American media will give GM and Ford the credit they deserve. And once they do, perception among the majority of the American public will rightfully change. GM and Ford aren't only doing what they should to make gains in the American market to deserve American consumer loyalty; they're also doing what they should to make gains in the markets of China, Europe and across most of the rest of the globe. |
I think the quote of "Perception is reality" kinda springs to my mind when reading that article. Sure what they stated could be true and such but its peoples perception of the companies that makes those stat's fall on deaf ears and eyes.
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Ford doesn't put out a single car I'd want. They're a decent company I guess, but their performance vehicles just aren't as good as other companies in my mind. As for GM - I love some of their cars, and a C6 would be my dream car. Most cars with an LS1 or LS2 get my vote for a good car.
But anything short of a C6, and I wouldn't trade my 8 for a domestic vehicle. |
exactly, make a car I actually would want to buy. A mustang/charger are not my ideas of a sports car and infact strengthens with my perception that local car companies make big heavy cars I would never buy.
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^^^ Exactly. If Ford or GM made a high 20's, low 30's sports car with RWD or AWD they would gain my interest (and the Mustang isn't a sports car in my book).
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Originally Posted by Clavius
I think the quote of "Perception is reality" kinda springs to my mind when reading that article. Sure what they stated could be true and such but its peoples perception of the companies that makes those stat's fall on deaf ears and eyes.
Ford already has a sports car in it's lineup, it's called the RX-8. |
Ford is a basket case. GM is moving in the right direction by stymied by bean counters that cheapen and wreck the product.
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^Nah Ford is just scared to make any real "Bold Moves". GM on the other hand I believe has a plan in place, they just need to kill their bean counters to make it happen. The rumor I hear and love is how GM wishes to make Pontiac their peformance brand once again filled with RWD cars only. So no more perception of Pontiac being the girly wanna be sport car brand (excluding the GTO obviously lol).
If a survey company called me and asked me the question "Which American brand do you believe is making real strides to turn things around?" I'd answer GM right now. |
Originally Posted by nranly
^^^ Exactly. If Ford or GM made a high 20's, low 30's sports car with RWD or AWD they would gain my interest (and the Mustang isn't a sports car in my book).
GM is the only american company I think going in this direction. The Pontiac Soltice and Saturn Sky are both RWD and are coming in Turbo form putting out something like 260 HP using the Cobalt's 2.5 L ecotech engine. The Cobalt has been rumored to be getting AWD this year and HP bumped to 260 HP, same setup as solstice, to compete with the AWD monsters of Subi and Mitsu. I will NEVER give up the Rx8 but I definatly would admit if I did not have it I would consider a GM car above any other car maker. ALL Pontiacs are now going to be converted to RWD in an effort to revive the performance characteristic of that GM brand while other GM brands will keep the front drive for economy etc. |
Their perception suffers because they made the consumers suffer with their bad products for years. Making good cars for a few years ok sure, now do it for a decade.
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And puttiing all their eggs in one basket didn't help.
SUV's |
I would love to buy "american" but they dont make 1 car that I would call even sporty. My contour is better than the focus. More power, better handling, more features etc. I had seen a comercial on tv for a focus for 10k, I said woot! daily driver, I jump on the internets, go to the ford site, by the time I add the options to make it comparable to my current car, stuff like ac, abs, traction control (not standard... scary) it comes out to around 18k. If ford would bring the focus RS over, I would by one, or even take the engine from the volvo s40 t5, and fix up the suspension, theyd have a nice car. UGH!
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I saw this posted in another forum and for a good bit of it, they're telling a half truth. As in, "yes that's true, but you didn't tell them..." etc.
Also the JD Power initial quality thing doesn't mean much. Ooh, we can build a car that doesn't fall apart during it's warranty time. Big deal, I want to see how reliable it is around the 100k mark. Granted, the newest re-designs may end up being just as reliable as the Camry. The Pontiac G6 rental I drove certainly seemed very Camry-like. But long-term reliability is unknown, and would I want to be a guinea pig, with my own money? No. |
I guess I don't really think there is any such thing as a foreign or domestic car maker anymore. They are all publicly traded on markets. You own foreign automakers if you have a pension or an international fund investment. I guess all it really means is where they are headquartered and what stock exchange they trade on.
Nobody made a car but Mazda at the time that qualified for what I wanted - great handling, great looks, 4 doors, and priced in the mid 20s. |
I would have to say preception is the biggest problem for domestic makers. If you want to talk reliablity most people say Toyota which has been etched into their brains by one of the best pr machines ever. Look around, and see what kind of automobiles are in high mileage high abuse rolls, generally it is a domestic, ie taxis, police cars, rental cars, goverment vehicles, and why because they last. Sure American makers dropped the ball for while but that was a while back, right now one could argue that Toyota is one of the least reliable makers out there, with all the recalls on serious things like transmissions, engines, suspensions, and ECUs, but again the perception is that they can do no wrong. I still find it funny the general lack of knowledge of the average consumer about the sludging issues they had on their sixes and worse the treatment they put their customers through until NHTSA got involved.
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Originally Posted by jmerc
I would have to say preception is the biggest problem for domestic makers. If you want to talk reliablity most people say Toyota which has been etched into their brains by one of the best pr machines ever. Look around, and see what kind of automobiles are in high mileage high abuse rolls, generally it is a domestic, ie taxis, police cars, rental cars, goverment vehicles, and why because they last. Sure American makers dropped the ball for while but that was a while back, right now one could argue that Toyota is one of the least reliable makers out there, with all the recalls on serious things like transmissions, engines, suspensions, and ECUs, but again the perception is that they can do no wrong. I still find it funny the general lack of knowledge of the average consumer about the sludging issues they had on their sixes and worse the treatment they put their customers through until NHTSA got involved.
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Sorry but american cars are etched in my head to have bad reliability, poor build quality, and poor styling. It can be due to the build quality or maybe just looking over and seeing a rusting, poorly maintained Cavalier being run the crap out of by some 'cool' kid who has a car but doesn't properly maintain it.
I really don't know the truth about kia getting government subsidies and perks for their new plant, but did GM, Ford, or Chrysler ever get any subsidies for new plants too? I don't know. Will Kia get more $$$ from government to upgrade their plant when the time comes? I doubt it. I don't know the whole story, but why didn't Detroit use their muscle to 'discourage' the government from subsidizing Kia or any other foreign car maker? Sure Detroit auto makers are making IMPRESSIVE muscle cars, but all I see in them are heavy, straight-line monsters that will break down after so many pedals to the metal. Sure they are nice when first bought. But after a while I personally think you'll start seeing 'reliability' issues (reliability as in street raced the crap out of them). I wonder why I don't see many 5 Litre Mustangs around as much and why I see hundreds of 80's to mid 90's 90horsepower corollas. It's all about perception I'm guessing |
gm and ford witht he excpetion of 1 or 2 cars, make some oooglie lookin suckers!
Start making the cars look better and you will have some more customers. imo |
Gm and Ford stink on ice...
i like the ls1, i drove one, but the whole time I just kept looking at all the cons and how much I missed my 8 :wiggle: -Cody :smoker: |
I come from a family that has owned many American cars over the years. We don't own one anymore though and never will again if that tells you anything. In my opinion, yes they are that bad but everyone has their own opinion.
Now whether you love him or hate him, Jeremy Clarkson is good from an entertainment standpoint nevertheless. Here's his very biased view towards American cars and he pretty much hates us all. That's OK though. We all know the English are teasipping wussies that can't win their own wars without us so at least we're all on equal terms! Watch this video when you have some time. It's about an hour and 20 minutes long. It obviously set up to make all americans and their cars look bad but it's still pretty funny. According to him, yes American cars are that bad. Please don't turn this thread into a flamefest about Jeremy Clarkson. Just take it for what it is. Entertainment. http://www.autoblog.com/2006/12/25/a...-bad-and-ugly/ |
The perception is everything. I sold cars at a large Toyota dealership for while. It floored me how people would not get upset with major problems with there Toyotas. They assume that it is a Toyota, this must be a freak thing. People with the Prius were not upset either. The recall list was pages long with hundreds of people waiting for parts to come in. AND IT WAS A PROBLEM WITH THE STEERING! I now work at a Pontiac/GMC/Cadillac store. People will come in raising hell demanding a new car or saying it is a lemon and they want their money back when the problem was that they did not tighten the gas cap and got a OBD light.
Ford did not help things whith cars like the Pinto. They would make a totaly POS, refuse to admit it, wait for the lawsuits because they decide it is cheaper that way. The tire and Explorer deal did not help either. |
I've never owned an American car, so I don'thave quite the bias from owning a bad one. My family had mostly Ford trucks/SUV's and those ran fine without issue.
American "cars" are a misnomer anyways, as nearly all are build on Asian/Euro platforms that were designed abroad. GM's recent cars have been very reliable, just boring as shit in terms of style and drive. the style is improving, the driving dynamics are still up in the air. I like what I am seeing from GM with the new Malibu, Vette, Camaro, Aura etc.....in terms of style. So I think there is hope. Ford doesn't have man American cars, but the Euro Focus and Mondeo are awesome looking, so I hope they come over here. I like the mustang, the Fusion isn't bad, the 500 is boring. I'd like to own an American vehicle, they just haven't produced on that I really like. |
I base my bias on personal experience. I think GM and Ford make excellent rear drive V8's that run forever and are cheap to maintain. Unfortunately Crown Vic's and Caprice's are not very sheik right now and not what I'm in to. I think some of the worst companies for reliability and maintenence are VW and BMW. My previous VW's always had electrical gremlins and more serious issues that cost a ton to fix long before they should have ever fallen apart. Also the dealers couldn't even fix them properly and they were always packed with people trying to get their car fixed. BMW's always cost a ton for parts and if you ever read R&T used car buying guides they always have 5-10K worth of replacement or upgrade parts you'll probably have to fork out for. GM and Ford aren't the only ones that make poor quality.
You have to give me what I want though!! Why do I want a 4500lb car with 340hp that still only does 0-60 in 7.0 seconds?? I will give GM credit for their colbalt SS and C6 etc. There cars have more refined performance than the other 2 and have been innovative. 5 years after they came up with the ferrofluid shocks on Caddy's Porsche is starting to use them. Hmm. I think GM is doing some things right. Now they just need to not skip on the interior details and let the people that styled the Corvette and Solstice start designing car bodies for the sedans and other boringmobiles. |
Hilarious video and the Ford GT does make some amazing sounds.
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Thank's RG for that clarkson video. Sadly what he says is mostly true and its that perception yet again that is killing the American brands.
Oh and I got the best quote EVER from that video from Clarkson himself. "Its like Herpes. Its great fun getting it. Horrible having to live with it." |
Clarkson's a great entertainer but I hate how much power he has. A few weeks ago I watched the good, bad, and ugly and by the end of it my friends were complaining about how horrible American cars are.
Still, American brands sell cars and do so because they fill a certain niche. Anyways, a few years down the line, aftermarket according, I may want to pick up one of these. GM is certainly doing things and come to think of it I think the crossfire was the first step in this direction like it or not. https://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4782/new20gn.jpg |
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You know, many of you are complaining that Ford and GM don't make vehicles that excite you. But what about Toyota or Honda? When was the last time you've ever seen a real sports car from toyota? Honda never had more than 2, one of which was way above most people's financial reach. So the question now becomes, who out there has what you want or comes closest?
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Well Buick has never had a major quality problem.
And in the last few years GM has had a higher rating than toyota and Hona on certain models. |
Originally Posted by SlayerRX8
Ford doesn't put out a single car I'd want. They're a decent company I guess, but their performance vehicles just aren't as good as other companies in my mind. As for GM - I love some of their cars, and a C6 would be my dream car. Most cars with an LS1 or LS2 get my vote for a good car.
But anything short of a C6, and I wouldn't trade my 8 for a domestic vehicle. I'll be looking at the new camaro when it comes out though, just because I've always wanted to restore a 69. I can't get away from the fact I love muscle cars! (the old ones anyways) |
Fortunately for our benefit, the United States remains the overall global leader in research and development, and a big reason for that is that American automakers. According to the Level Field Institute, U.S. car companies invest $16 billion in research and development annually, outpacing any other industry one could name. You'd wonder how we aren't all in hover cars powered by fusion power cells by now? Not only is that an astronomical amount of change, and doesn't include other maker's worldwide 'development $'... but it's an example of how statistics, and a writer's bias towards his point of view will associate terms like "research and development" with something good (how about money thrown away getting little in return?) That money figure and anything to actually DO with improving cars quality or anything else for that matter is meaningless, but here are used as a positive point. It's follows as an obvious point that all the money in the world doesn't improve "cars" if the people spending it are focused beancounters 1st, car people 5th, 9th, or somewhere far down their list of priorities. I mean how many fenders, tail lights, seats, dashboards, etc., are redesigned along with the manufacturing facilities to produce them every year and to what greater good for "cars"? Little, if any most likely, but that's where megabucks of the money in "research and development" goes often times. All car companies are marketing styling, lifestyle projection, image, machismo, conservatism, feeling richiness...whatever you want - to part you from some of your income as often as possible. How many people use cars as they are advertised? Pintos/Skylarks/etc. with spoilers come to mind. Fortunately some car makers actually provide the goods they advertise, and some car owners actually put their cars to the test. Alternatively, and in the majority of cases, consumers literally buy the marketing and wouldn't know a good (bad) car if it killed them, and sometimes that's exactly what happens! Although I will admit to favoring foreign cars since by early training on the subject by owning a Ford, I don't think American brand companies have any choke hold on good or bad "quality". Quality alone is an elusive word. Witness the J D Powers 'surveys'. For example, one could argue that Mercedes Benz or Audi/VW have designed some of the best cars, technology-wise, in the world. Likewise for the Italians, but do they break down? And how often and at what cost? Is that poor quality because they break or is it bleeding edge quality design that needs more maintenance to stay at high levels of perfection? Think of our beloved RX-8 too. To the owners and in some 'keep-it-simple' answer in a survey it may be a moot point. Or do some consumers lie to keep from admiting they're been 'taken-in' when asked in surveys? What type of problem and how much of a problem flips someone from positive to negative on a purchase? Not all consumers care about performance 'quality', they simply want appliance 'quality' that works without fail for 100K miles without major maintenance. I need/want that too, and try to combine those several quality metrics, engineering quality, performance quality, and maintenance/repair quality in one car. Sometimes you win, but it does tend to be a crapshoot. Therefore the benefit of owning more than one car, boring low-maint quality for daily use, and ideally, exciting, low maint for fun driving. Bottom line, the perfect quality car is as different as people are. |
Originally Posted by Spin9k
That quote sure struck me...I mean :shocking: $16,000,000,000.00 every freaking year! Holly Carp! Is that actually true?????
You have to remember that R&D spending is used to design new cars, engines, factories, etc. |
^^
It's still spinning on the numbers. Marketing/profitability research and designing better landscaping for the factories (all of which can be crunched as R&D for statistical numbers) do not, a better car make... |
Okay, soapbox time. I don't really know that this is particularly on-topic, but I feel like getting on my horse here.
Ya know, I just wish that Ford and GM would actually build those interesting cars that they show off at auto shows. Hey Ford, what the hell happened to that awesome Iosis concept that seemed to draw positive praise from EVERYONE who saw it? But, hey, at least the 500 kicked ass, am I rite?! GM actually started doing this to an extent with the Sky and Solstice, and - would you believe it - they're SELLING! Lincoln has a rather sharp concept called the MKR in the new Car and Driver. Not necessarily my cup of tea, but it's the first Lincoln that has ever caught my eye over the 22 years of my life. In my eyes, it's simple - they need to stop pushing out cars that people buy because they're the cheapest or because they're incentived all to hell and back. All they really need to do is put out some cars that people buy because they want to own them and take pride in their ownership. It doesn't even have to be their whole lineup! Just put out a halo car or two for each brand and get people to take notice. They're certainly capable - in fact, I've seen the proof with my own two eyes - it's just a matter of shaking those bean counters who seem to cause so much disruption between concept and production. |
Originally Posted by Rhawb
Hey Ford, what the hell happened to that awesome Iosis concept that seemed to draw positive praise from EVERYONE who saw it?
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Originally Posted by Backup7
Iosis = new Mondeo (Euro market)
Oh the huge manatee! Seriously though, are these guys afraid of actually achieving decent sales numbers? |
Every employee of the big 3 needs to watch that video. It was very biased but it also was a scathing rebuke of American values. Particularly with vehicles like the Hummer and Escalade. When I was in the Army the HUMVee's where able to do anything. Too bad the Hummers are so watered down.
That said, the biggest gripe Clarkson seemed to have with any American cars was the driving dynamics. Sure some are big on power and some look good, but driving them was another issue. |
I don't have anything against American car companies, they're just not offering anything I want. The new Mustang looked nice, until I sat in one, and GM has several cars that I thought deserved a deeper inspection, until I noticed none of them offered a manual. I do think GM is moving in the right direction, but they're not going to make it there by the time I can finally buy an 8.
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Originally Posted by TALAN7
Every employee of the big 3 needs to watch that video. It was very biased but it also was a scathing rebuke of American values. Particularly with vehicles like the Hummer and Escalade. When I was in the Army the HUMVee's where able to do anything. Too bad the Hummers are so watered down.
That said, the biggest gripe Clarkson seemed to have with any American cars was the driving dynamics. Sure some are big on power and some look good, but driving them was another issue. Look at toyota now. The camry is getting bigger, and bigger, and bigger, not to mention uglier. That is what Americans want! So, i think his video should be shown to American buyers more than American manufacturers. |
Anyone saw the new Bond movie? I would buy that Ford that 007 drives in a hearbeat. It looks very Euro with a hint of TL design
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You mean the Aston?
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Originally Posted by shaunv74
You mean the Aston?
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I know. Just playing on the Ford owns Jaguar/Aston thing.:) It kinda looked like a Focus up front if I remember.
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I liked this quote the best from the article:
"GM has the highest market share, increasing over 2 percentage points from a year ago, so it apparently can't be accused of not making cars people want to buy either." "GM also reported a 3.9 percent rise in August vehicle sales despite high gas prices and a supposedly slowing economy. And even though Toyota reported record sales that month, it couldn't match the non-record setting sales volume of Ford. GM's sales rose 17 percent in October from the year-ago month and Ford sales rose 8 percent the same period." All maybe true, but apparently the author forgot the butt-load of incentives they were offering during that period to move their vehicles. I'm sure any car company can move product when they sell it for less than invoice... Just take everything you read with a grain of salt as EVERYONE has a point of view. I'm not anti-American auto and they do make some nice cars, but Detroit still has a big perception problem to overcome. |
Every manufacturer offers incentives. Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Lamborghini, everyone except Ferrari and ultra exotics(Bugatti, McLaren, Pagani, etc).
Agree with the rest. |
Well the new Mustang station wagon will put a stake in Ford's heart.
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whats the difference between a porcupine and a Porsche...
A porcupine has its pricks on the outside.... |
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