bascho

A lot of members here that live in the USA tend to bash the domestics at every opportunity.......is that to say you wish they would go under completely? How many people on this forum believe that the destruction of our domestic automotive industry would not impact their life? I would love to have a discussion with those of this mindset to point-out some connections they may have over-looked. The US is in real danger here people.......we are a nation in debt, like many of our citizens. If we don't start to protect our manufacturing base......we may lose our status of 'World Leader'. Don't think it hasn't happened to many other countries throughout history.....the USA is not immune.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Well, I think in order to get people to buy your product, you gotta have something good.

but this is not the case right now. I mean I know the Big 3 made great cars. but as far as design(mostly), and durabilitiy(on par, somewhat), American cars just got owned by Japanese and European cars.

and for the the historical high national debt, you have to thanks the big 3, Im talking about the higher ups in our government. Like Bush? for example. How much did Iraq cost us again? Yeah, of course we all want 10 bucks per barrel of oil. but even my junior high school cousin knows that is NOT possible to invade someone else llike that and expect everybody there to obey you. and now I swear if they try to touch Iran I seriously dont know whats going to happen.

(speaking of debt I know Im making monthly payments to my 8 now, but I gottta tell ya I have more than enough cash to pay the whole thing off, its just that I dont feel like to giving out all my cash at once. when I want to buy something I almost always make sure that I have at least couple more times of money than the cost before I'll hit the BUY button, to secure myself you know)

back to topic, if the Big 3 ... well lets talk about Ford for now, if they "die", of course it wont make any of us happy, but if they really die due to compeition. who is there to blame ? I will say nothing but the company itself, and its homeland governemtn.

Wonder why the GOLD price just hit 25 year high ? and US dollars going down and down and down ... I wonder why

so ...

staticlag

Well, its tough, If you make ultra durable and reliable cars people aren't going to buy new cars every year. Profits go down, forcing you to use inferior parts and sacrafice durability and reliability. Then people are forced to buy new cars every few years, but they complain about durability and reliability.

Honestly, if the big 3 market share gets shunted to the other car companies the only sacrafice that will happen will possibly be some innovation caused by competition. But is that really a factor right now? I mean, we already tout imports as being top of the line as for technology, saftey, and performace. What competition based innovation did big 3 ever bring to the table? (rhetorical question)

So capitalism kills another home-based industry. Is it so bad that consumers are becoming more educated and want more equity for their dollar? I think not.

staticlag

That being said, ford is down 7% this month. car sales ar up %60 due to the hybrids introduced, but they took a big hit on explorer and their truck line.

bascho

ARE we becoming more educated? Is the doctor who buys a Mercedes helping his practice that is 80% domestic auto companies employees and their families? Everyone is impacted by the auto industry in some way. A domestic auto company doing poorly needing to close 12 plants does not balance with a foreign automaker opening 1 new plant. For every 1 person that works in the auto industry there are 5 people that work in a business that depends on the spending by auto industry employees. Foreign plants built on our soil do not contribute to our GDP or exports. Educated people should be afraid of where our country is headed and not about "equity for their dollar". Stock portfolios are only as good as the companies that support them......the whole thing is a house of cards. How many of your stock investments are in companies that actually make something? If they are service only....then they are risky. Service industries are exactly that.....they service somebody else, maybe another service industry. But all services are based around someone who actually produces something. Without the person who produces things.......who will need a bunch of services?

guy321

Illegal Aliens?

bascho

The issue is larger than Ford or GM. There are 1000's of businesses that depend on the Big 3......some are very large like Delphi and Visteon and some are very small like a gas station or restaurant across from a Ford or GM plant. Yes Ford is going through some problems......and moreso GM and Delphi, but it's the domestic side the industry as a whole that is in trouble. When was the last time in History that so many large American companies were on the verge of bankruptcy? These are all signs that something big is happening in our country. What if the world went to war over the last remaining sources of oil? Could the US build military equipment today on the same scale as WWII? You want to say 'Yes', but the answer would surprise many. Too many products are built in other countries......and it's not even the final products that I'm talking about. I'm talking components. Some of you think a WWIII is impossible......but I have to disagree. China, Russia, India, Japan, US, Europe, etc all have economies built around cheap oil and not one of us is ready to change. Let's say that 6 people are out in the desert (1 from each of the countries listed) and they find the last glass of water. All 6 are extremely thirsty........who gets to drink? Think about it.

Before you mention alternate fuels, note that executive officer of Exxon/Mobile has announced his retirement today with a payout of $400 million. The most recent budget from the Federal Gov't for alternate fuel research is $6.7 million. This country is not serious about alternate fuels and it shows.

staticlag

I was being scarcastic.

This is the way capitalism functions. People look out for themselves, not for the total economy or their neighbor's buisness. This is seriously just a byproduct of the country that we live in. People want more stuff for their dollar, they don't care where it comes from. Look at everyone shopping on the internet now, shopping at walmart, buying foreign made clothes. Why would a person want to buy a $450 ipod at a local electronics store, when they can get a grey market on ebay for $250? Why would a person pay MSRP for a jar of pickles when they can save a dollar at Walmart?

With more people and greater international shipping and communication we are realizing that we (America) don't want to do hard and tedious work, but its costing us the money that we so love. Honestly, what would we do without the illegals??? We certainly don't want the crappy jobs for low pay.

Of course pure capitalism is a bad thing, it would just be a couple monoplies screwing us, and we combat that with government regulation, which is exactly what we need right now. No buyoffs, just hardcore consumer screwing taxes! I favor a $5,000 tax on all import cars. 100% Tax added to all imported goods, all of a sudden all those cheap products we love at walmart and neat foreign gagets aren't going to be so affordable, style of living will be down across the country, but dammit, we will all have the same style of living.

staticlag

That, and an educated consumer is usually defined as a person who knows about the current market and "can shop around for the best price."

guy321

Only poor people buy foriegn made clothes from Wal-mart. I buy my cheap foriegn goods from Nordstrams :p

rx8wannahave

I don't know if this applies and I'm probably just ranting, but I'll blurb some thoughts.

I'm talking from the middle class point of view, not the rich who feel less of an impacts nor from the poor who feel alot worse and worry about better things than we do...such as food, rent, having something to wear, and taking care of their kids.

According to what I have read the average middle class income has gone down and seems to be headed for even lower levels.

Gas prices are at record highs in this country for no other reason than demand = limitless greed.

Because of gas, everything else has risen in price food, goods and services.

Automobile prices continue to climb, while the lack of sales has held it at a pretty constant level these past years.

Companies continue to outsrouce jobs from the US telling us they have to to keep their prices down so we can buy their products at a cheaper rate. Meanwhile, we lose the jobs we need to pay for those products. (I know...this is not extremely wide ranging yet)

Medical expenses are out of control and the government tells us they wont have money for us in the future. Money I might add, that they owe us considering they took from us to begin with.

Note: I wont go into the moral decline and other social issues that actually pose a greater threat.

Finally, the wages we earn have been stagnant for a long time now making the ever increasing prices for everything even more painful.

So...if we lost the big 2 (I guess 3 with Dodge but they are German now) we would lose alot of jobs and become less competitive in the automotive industry. We would lose 2 major corporations and honestly because of all the other factors or problems in our economy we would be headed for a tail spin that GOD knows where it will end.

I agree, to be honest I think Ford/GM let me down when I started searching for a new car and there were little options I'd like...or had a passion for.

So, it does matter to me and that's why I care about Ford & GM fixing their sinking ships, but I worry more about the economy as a whole and the ever lowering standards of the middle class and even worse...the ever increasing poor class and what they suffer through.

America has ALOT of domestic problems, a great enemy in Islamic terrorist, a ever lowering world opinion about everything American or what ever we do, and our citizens nor our government care enough about it to do anything about it. It’s like we are watching the decline of this great (but imperfect) nation right before our eyes and everyone is too busy living in selfishness to realize that we better start caring, and SOON.

Then again…honestly, this is to be expected…

So…I hope the big 2 really get their act together or else it will be another huge burden on an already tired nation…and tired economy. When ever there is a breakdown in morality (as our history has shown) everything else falls along with it.

Everything has it’s consequence…




Sorry for the rant, I did say a few things that Bascho was looking for...lol.

Aseras

innovate or die it's their choice.. you can only go so far on name brand and reputation.. look at intel latley.. you can't keep producing crap and expect people to buy it. Once they realize they are getting less for the same or more money, they shift to the better deal.

There will still be plenty of competition, but price will go up if all that's left is imports...

If the big 3 actually look like they are going to tank, you bet that the govt will step in welfare them and tariff the imports to keep "competition"

bascho

I really just wanted to have an open discussion with the members.....I have no expectations of anyone......just hope that responses are honest and not delusional. You made a lot of great points.

bascho

But would you believe it if they came out and said, "here, this is the beautifully designed, high-quality, reliable vehicle you have all been looking for." The answer is 'no'. You will start listening to the people that had a horrible experience with Ford/GM back in 1989. You will consult your latest issue of Consumer Reports....which by-the-way will not give a 'buy' recommendation in the first year of production. You will read a highly-biased review from some auto rag that rips the company on soft trim materials (which may actually be identical to that used by another company they gave a glowing review), or the space.....or the design. People in this country happily trade a hands-on experience for someone else's account. Movie critics, music critics,.......auto critics.

TownDrunk

Automotive reputation is one of those things that takes decades to build up, and just a couple years to destroy. Look at Honda when they started importing cars here. Everyone laughed. The kept working, on quality, and making sure they delivered something that the people wanted. Now they're considered a very good brand. Even Hyundai is looking much better than it did in the mid-80's when everyone laughed at the Excel they brought here.

I think the Big 3 just need to keep plugging along. If they can contain costs, develop new cars with good quality, that appeal to people, then they're going to reap the rewards, but it's going to take time. I already look at GM in a different light than I did back in the mid 80's and 90's. Having driven some of the new Caddies (CTS, STS, SRX, XLR) I'm quite impressed with the styling, build quality, materials, and from what I've read with regards to long term tests of these cars, overall quality is looking good. My wife and I are even considering purchasing one in the next year which would be the first true domestic car I've ever owned.

As to answer Bascho's original question... Do I think my world would change if the big three were gone? Yep. Do I think it would end? Nope. I also think my world would change if we stopped importing cars from other countries as well. The economy in general is moving in a global direction so there are many dependencies between seemingly unrelated goods that would be affected by just about any car manufacturer going out of business. I think, as an American, all I can do is hope that things turn around for the big 3, and I'm sure it will. It will just take a little time.

Sephiroth

It's funny because i haven't really seen any japanese manufacturer other than mazda really innovate. The way i see it all the major japanese manufacturers have always copied what works and try to improve upon it. Mazda and Subaru to an extent seem to be the exceptions.

TownDrunk

I agree there. Everything new from Toyota and Honda, IMO, is bland. There are a few exceptions here and there, but bland for the most part.

bascho

^ your comments are remarkably lucid for a town drunk

TownDrunk

I'm between bottles

bascho

staticlag

I think we should look to the past for solutions to this problem.

Firstly we should addict the Chinese to opium, then sell it to them for ludicious profit.

Secondly, we should travel to third world countries capture males as slaves and bring them back to work.

Thridly, we should attack rich countries and steal their stuff. Namely, oil producing nations. Lets just drop a few nukes and steal all those fields, gas prices will really go down! We can also attack DeBeers' mines diamond mines also, but only if we have enough time to make it home for dinner.

Fourthly, women should be paid only $10 a day for their jobs, and they can't vote anymore.

Red Devil

Coming from the financial side of the rail industry, I see our traffic mix and customers and revenue streams daily. I can say that losing the Big 3 would wreak havoc on us. But it would not just affect us and our industry, hurting our indsutry will hurt everyone else.

How so? A lot of rail freight is not just raw materials (steel, coke, coal - all needed by the Big 3), but also finished consumer goods. If we're not moving enough of the raw materials, then not only will we need to lay off employees, but we'll also have to charge more to transport the consumer goods we can still move because we have lots of fixed costs between labor and infrastructure and healthcare, etc... The companies that are moving the freight, like us, will only absorb so much cost and the rest will be given to the consumer. So go ahead and mark-up that pair of jeans you've been wanting to purchase. If you like orange juice, that moves daily out of Florida in very expensive refrigerated trains, so go ahead and mark that up also. The list could go on and on.

At the same time, none of this makes me want to buy American out of nationalism. Several of the destinations for the raw materials we move are for foreign manufacturer's plants based in the U.S. Someone may have bought a Honda or a Toyota or a BMW, but many of them are built right here in the U.S.A. I bought the RX-8, and didn't flinch about it not being American made, or that it is made with very limited U.S. parts, if any at all. If the Big 3 wants my business, than they have to build somthing I want to buy. Me giving them business for the sake of giving them business doesn't encourage them to build a better product, or a product that I want. But not giving them my business should be incentive.

"Shanika"

I think the big 3 is necessary for America and its economy to grow or at least to sustain. With that being said, the government should cut support to the the big 3. That goes out to all the other billion++ dollar corporations as well.

I believe that competion is good for the economy. Without all the supplemental funds/grants, corporate tax cuts, governement assist, etc. to (only sticking with) the big 3, the big 3 will have to make major changes in their organizations and companies. Eventually they produce quality cars at better value.

At first, many people will lose jobs, company's lose profits, but maybe this is what this country needs to shake up the corporate world and change the culture of dependency to these major corporations like the big 3.

That's all.. for now.

crimson-rain

I agree with what RedDevil is saying. If I owned a business (provided I have competition in the same business), I have to make an attractive product to my target consumer base. I can't just whip something up and say "here ya go, made in the good ol US of A" and EXPECT people to buy when my comp has designed the same kind of product better. Also, the higher-ups in the Big 3 need to quit putting so much money in their pockets and more into research and innovations for their products.

Aseras

well i think the new civic or Fit, is a big change. it's a dramitic leap from analog gauges etc..