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-   -   anyone else stumbled across this full ceramic wankel? (https://www.rx8club.com/general-automotive-49/anyone-else-stumbled-across-full-ceramic-wankel-220351/)

Ozimandious 07-26-2011 07:55 AM

anyone else stumbled across this full ceramic wankel?
 
Not just the apex seals but the whole engine!!! run it as hot as you want. Now imagine what you could do with this engine...

http://ceramicrotaryengines.com/

thoughts?

Chad D. 07-26-2011 07:58 AM

anyone else stumbled across this full ceramic wankel?
 
I wonder what kind of exhaust you would need and if it would need extra shielding.
I say this because most of the heat would get deflected out.
It would probably take a while to get up to temps.
I'm skeptical.

Vlaze 07-26-2011 08:00 AM

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/ceramic-rotary-engine-2384/

Ozimandious 07-26-2011 09:30 AM

anyone else stumbled across this full ceramic wankel?
 
Awesome concept... just think what you could do with it... run it at a higher compression... cleaner and more power and much less cooling needed. Wonder how well you could balance the whole thing for higher revs?
Either way bloody interesting to me anyways. THOUGHTS????
http://ceramicrotaryengines.com/

zoom44 07-26-2011 09:40 AM

updated as of this month? what did they do, finally fix some of the spelling errrors? i dont really see anything different.

Shinka_MJR 07-26-2011 09:54 AM

umm... anyone catch this:

"A high torque engine, rotary engines also run more smoothly."

seriously?

tjbourgoyne 07-26-2011 10:37 AM

The pics on their site are strange, one guy looks like he's working in his garage. The other two looks like nightlife in 1972.

deadphoenix52 07-26-2011 11:16 AM

wow an update. that site has been around since like 2004. and its shown up here many times. i checked in periodically for about a year but it seemed the project was dead. theres a big thread on it buried here somewhere

Joe-the_tattoo_artist 07-26-2011 12:42 PM

I noticed a repetition of an erroneous statement that metals are a good conductor of heat. Metals are in fact poor conductors of heat.

This story does remind me of Fords GT90 which used ceramic shielding in the engine bay to help cope with its copious amount of heat. Ceramics being an excellent conductor of heat.

Vlaze 07-26-2011 12:54 PM


Originally Posted by Joe-the_tattoo_artist (Post 4040240)
I noticed a repetition of an erroneous statement that metals are a good conductor of heat. Metals are in fact poor conductors of heat.

This story does remind me of Fords GT90 which used ceramic shielding in the engine bay to help cope with its copious amount of heat. Ceramics being an excellent conductor of heat.

http://chan.catiewayne.com/b/src/131089557959.jpg

I think you're confused between the meaning of what a thermal conductor and insulator are. There's a reason thermal conductivity of metals are high and ceramics are low in any material properties specifications.

Arca_ex 07-26-2011 12:55 PM


Originally Posted by Joe-the_tattoo_artist (Post 4040240)
I noticed a repetition of an erroneous statement that metals are a good conductor of heat. Metals are in fact poor conductors of heat.

This story does remind me of Fords GT90 which used ceramic shielding in the engine bay to help cope with its copious amount of heat. Ceramics being an excellent conductor of heat.

You have it backwards. Metals are good conductors of heat and ceramics are poor conductors of heat.

Put a piece of wood and a piece of steel out in the sun for awhile. Now touch both of them. The metal FEELS hotter correct? They're actually both the same exact temperature but the metal is much more efficient at transferring that heat to your skin.

The reason you use ceramic heat shielding is because it is a poor conductor of heat and prevents the transfer of heat from one side of it to the other.

reddozen 07-26-2011 01:12 PM

It's only about 1" around. I've talked to them before. I like their idea, but not their method. If I'm not mistaken, they've also joined up with a couple other ceramic rotary groups. The problem is that they're using a specialized variant of ceTZP, and that limits their production size to 1"x3" if I remember correctly.

Like I said, good idea, but not my choice of approach. Standard ceTZP isn't super expensive, but there are still manufacturing concerns with ceramics.

They are nice guys though.

MBTwenty 07-26-2011 01:50 PM

Shinka, I almost tried to kill the bug on your signature. Thought it was on my screen.

alnielsen 07-26-2011 02:11 PM

Two separate threads with the same title were merged.

deadphoenix52 07-26-2011 02:21 PM


Originally Posted by Joe-the_tattoo_artist (Post 4040240)
I noticed a repetition of an erroneous statement that metals are a good conductor of heat. Metals are in fact poor conductors of heat.

This story does remind me of Fords GT90 which used ceramic shielding in the engine bay to help cope with its copious amount of heat. Ceramics being an excellent conductor of heat.

:banghead:

Joe-the_tattoo_artist 07-26-2011 11:16 PM

Thermal conductivity of "good" or "poor" is determined by how rapidly a material absorbs and/or dissipates heat. "Good" meaning that it does so relatively quickly and "poor" meaning that it does so relatively slowly.

Joe-the_tattoo_artist 07-26-2011 11:22 PM

Had the writer used the terms "high thermal conductivity" and "low thermal conductivity",it would have made more sense.... but, he did not.

kma5783 07-26-2011 11:27 PM


Originally Posted by Joe-the_tattoo_artist (Post 4040677)
Thermal conductivity of "good" or "poor" is determined by how rapidly a material absorbs and/or dissipates heat. "Good" meaning that it does so relatively quickly and "poor" meaning that it does so relatively slowly.

This is exactly why metals are good conductors of heat they absorb and dissipate heat pretty rapidly, now ceramics on the other hand absorb and dissipate heat very slowly making them bad conductors. Good job at disproving your own previous statement

Joe-the_tattoo_artist 07-26-2011 11:40 PM


Originally Posted by kma5783 (Post 4040682)
This is exactly why metals are good conductors of heat they absorb and dissipate heat pretty rapidly, now ceramics on the other hand absorb and dissipate heat very slowly making them bad conductors. Good job at disproving your own previous statement

Not true... The effect of temperature on thermal conductivity is different for metals and nonmetals. In metals conductivity is primarily due to lattice vibrations and free electrons, however, free electrons play a dominant role. Therefore any increase in temperature increases the lattice vibrations but affects the movement of free electrons adversly thereby decreasing the conductivity. On the other hand conductivity in nonmetals is only due to lattice vibrations which increases with increasing temperature, and so the conductivity of nonmetals increases with increasing temperature.

Using the wood vs metal example that was used previously... the rate of change in temperature is greater for the wood than the metal; making the wood a better conductor of heat. In other words, which one "conducts" heat more rapidly?

kma5783 07-26-2011 11:51 PM

First off congrats on quoting a Wikipedia article and obviously understanding these concepts in an incorrect sense.

Think about what you're saying and realize you're wrong. Why do we make radiators out of metal? Hint: They conduct heat very well. Why do we use ceramic coating on exhaust headers? Hint: The ceramic doesn't conduct heat very well, therefore keeping the heat in the header where it belongs.

And now your trying to say wood conducts heat better than metal? Are you really that stupid?

Joe-the_tattoo_artist 07-27-2011 12:06 AM

There was no misunderstanding on my part.

The radiator is a good conductor of heat not because of the material but, because of its large surface area. The radiator fluid itself is an even better conductor of heat because it absorbs and dissipates heat very rapidly compared to the engine block materials.

Ceramic coated headers are good conductors of heat (compared to their non-coated counterparts) because the ceramics absorb and dissipates heat more efficiently than the metal that it coats.

Joe-the_tattoo_artist 07-27-2011 12:22 AM

Just to make things a bit more specific, I am not referring to the thermal conductivity within a single material... yes, I agree, metals have a higher thermal conductivity than non-metals. I am referring to how rapidly heat transfers from a given material to another.

kma5783 07-27-2011 12:25 AM

Ok you can believe that, but stop misleading other people.

I have a question for you then, There's three radiators one made of metal, one wood, and one ceramic. The surface area is the same on all of them which one performs better and why?

Now as far as ceramic coating an exhaust header do understand why people do it? Ceramic coating will reduce underhood temps and also the surface temp of the header. Why does it do this? Because it keeps the heat contained in the header and sends out the exhaust or through a turbo. A ceramic coated header results in higher EGT's which in Turbo applications results in higher efficiency and faster spool times. Now think about why exhaust gas temps would increase by coating the header. If you were correct EGT's would go down because more heat would be dissipated by the header and underhood temps would also increase, seems like a pretty dump thing to do doesn't it.

I would suggest you do some more research cause you're wrong in everything you've said so far.

Joe-the_tattoo_artist 07-27-2011 12:30 AM

It was not my intention to start a debate on the definitions of certain principles of thermodynamics. I was merely making an observation that the writer of the article had used less than accurate terms.

kma5783 07-27-2011 12:38 AM

Well your first post in the thread included the statement that "Metals are in fact poor conductors of heat" which is definitively false, so I'm not sure where you were going with this?

Joe-the_tattoo_artist 07-27-2011 12:47 AM

Compared to ceramics... yes, metals are poor conductors of heat.

And by the way, ceramics are capable of absorbing more heat than metals. This is how ceramic coated exhaust manifolds can be more efficient than non-coated ones at reducing engine bay temperatures.

Joe-the_tattoo_artist 07-27-2011 12:51 AM

It also illustrates the point of the article; that ceramic and ceramic lined engines are more thermaly efficient than a traditional all metal engine.

Arca_ex 07-27-2011 12:58 AM

2 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Joe-the_tattoo_artist (Post 4040721)
There was no misunderstanding on my part.

The radiator is a good conductor of heat not because of the material but, because of its large surface area. The radiator fluid itself is an even better conductor of heat because it absorbs and dissipates heat very rapidly compared to the engine block materials.

Ceramic coated headers are good conductors of heat (compared to their non-coated counterparts) because the ceramics absorb and dissipates heat more efficiently than the metal that it coats.

Alright I just think he's trolling at this point... but whatever. I'll try explaining this one last time.

First lets look at the meaning of the word conduct when used as a verb in this context.

Conduct (v): To serve as a channel or medium for (heat, electricity, sound, etc.)

Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conduct


So thermal conductivity is the efficiency at which a material can transmit heat from one material to another.

Now look at the attached picture. Lets assume that chambers A and C are filled with air at normal atmospheric pressure at about room temperature. Lets assume that these chambers are perfectly sealed to object B and can have no interaction with anything but object B.

For the first example, we'll have object B represent a solid piece of metal. If I were to instantly make chamber A 300 degrees, but chamber C was still room temperature, the metal would begin to CONDUCT heat energy from chamber A to chamber C until they reached equilibrium. If I were to coat this same piece of metal in ceramic, the time it takes for it to conduct that same amount of heat energy over to the other chamber would be LONGER than without the ceramic coating. Meaning that the bare metal is BETTER at conducting heat from one chamber to the other.


This is why we use ceramic coatings for headers, so that it conducts LESS heat from inside the headers to the outside of the headers, effectively lowering engine bay temperatures. Because it is LESS efficient at conducting heat.



I've also attached a chart of the thermal conductivity of common materials. Notice how Aluminum is about 250 times BETTER at conducting heat than wood? Also notice how Aluminum is about 4 times BETTER at conducting heat than stainless steel? What material a radiator is made out of still has a huge impact on its performance.

Also note that air and water are very poor thermal conductors.



Seriously if you're still that thickheaded after this explanation, go read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity

kma5783 07-27-2011 01:04 AM


Originally Posted by Joe-the_tattoo_artist (Post 4040739)
Compared to ceramics... yes, metals are poor conductors of heat.

And by the way, ceramics are capable of absorbing more heat than metals. This is how ceramic coated exhaust manifolds can be more efficient than non-coated ones at reducing engine bay temperatures.

NO Ceramics are worse conductors of heat compared to metals.
:wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:

When a header is ceramic coated it acts as an insulator because the ceramic does not conduct heat as well as the metal below it, which is why heat remains in the header and the surface temp of a ceramic coated header is less than one without the coating.

Now if you talking about which will retain heat for a longer period of time I would say Ceramics, this does not make it a better conductor.

kma5783 07-27-2011 01:11 AM

Thank you Arca_ex, but I don't think we are getting anywhere lol

Joe-the_tattoo_artist 07-27-2011 01:11 AM


Originally Posted by Joe-the_tattoo_artist (Post 4040739)
Compared to ceramics... yes, metals are poor conductors of heat.

And by the way, ceramics are capable of absorbing more heat than metals. This is how ceramic coated exhaust manifolds can be more efficient than non-coated ones at reducing engine bay temperatures.

Let me clarify that the thermal insulative properties of ceramics is how this works.

kma5783 07-27-2011 01:15 AM


Originally Posted by Joe-the_tattoo_artist (Post 4040758)
Let me clarify that the thermal insulative properties of ceramics is how this works.

This post makes absolutely NO sense!!!! A material cannot be a good conductor and insulator at the same time.

Some of your posts are totally conflicting with eachother.

Arca_ex 07-27-2011 01:22 AM


Originally Posted by Joe-the_tattoo_artist (Post 4040758)
Let me clarify that the thermal insulative properties of ceramics is how this works.

Insulation is referring to the R rating where R is resistance to heat transfer.

Materials with a high R rating, like ceramic, are poor heat conductors. Materials with low R ratings, like metals, are good heat conductors.

You CANNOT have a material that has a high R rating and is also a good conductor of heat. That doesn't make ANY sense.


But I'm pretty much done here if you're going to continue being this ignorant when multiple people have explained to you why your logic is backwards.

Joe-the_tattoo_artist 07-27-2011 01:25 AM

Perhaps I should mention that I am extremely tired and yet cannot sleep.

I meant to say the same things as you guys. I do understand it. My tired brain is making it difficult to make coherent sentences and lines of thought.

I seem to have mis-used the definitions of conductivity and insulation. When I wake up tomorrow and re-read what I posted, I am sure that I will be giving myself the biggest face-palm of them all in bewilderment of myself.

Joe-the_tattoo_artist 07-27-2011 01:37 AM


Originally Posted by Joe-the_tattoo_artist (Post 4040765)
Perhaps I should mention that I am extremely tired and yet cannot sleep.

...due to back pain from a past construction injury.
At the moment my cognitive abilities are compromised. I am sure that some of you have done the same a time or two while intoxicated or what not.
I do humbly apologize for any misunderstanding. Don't hold it against me.

Ozimandious 07-28-2011 12:09 AM


Originally Posted by alnielsen (Post 4040317)
Two separate threads with the same title were merged.

Sorry about that... I posted the first thread and then came back and was unable to find it for some reason so I did a repost.


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