rael

Old subject I know but all the recent reviews are very positive and great to read but they all mention torque as a problem (and really the only one).

From reading other threads I am under the impression that it is only a problem if the engine is not reved ie if treated as a normal engine with gear changed below 3000 whereby the rotary needs gear changes way above 3000, no problem if one is used to playing with the gears at higher revs especially as it goes up to 9000 without the strain and noise associated with a normal engine.

Is there anyway able to sort this out? The America threads are not as plentiful as I had hoped from car owners and nobody has really tackled this subject properly.

Any ideas?

rael

RobDickinson

The car has more torque than my 1.8 focus so I dont see what the problem is.

I'm buying it for an involving drive w/high revs and gear changes, I dont mind 'working' for performance, I'm sure the car will pull ok in higher gears for normal driving - but you may need a few more revs than a piston engine.

RomanoM

Well on the US car I drove (for a good 30 minutes) here was my impression of the engines power delivery:

True that below 3000 RPM the torque is weak. But that is in comparison to the power at higher RPMs and to other large engine sportscar.

Below 3000 RPM the car pulls and feels much like a peppy, small displacement 4 cylinder like that you would find from Alfas or the Germans. Not tire burning, but enough to go about your daily business.

The one characteristic that mitigates the low end torque though is throttle response and smoothness of delivery. There is no lag from pedal movement to delivery and the delivery is smooth and pleasant. So, it actually feels much better than it actually goes.

It makes it easy to drive in traffic.

From about 3000 - 6000 the torque is good, but more importantly absolutely flat. The car pulls in a linear and smooth as glass manner. Won't be as fast as TVR or something. But easily keeps up with the best 6 cylinder performance cars like the BMW 330i, Nissan Skyline and even a Z4 3.0i and Boxster. Again the throttle response is instant.

Very good (surprisingly good) mid-range.


Didn't dwell into the high RPM range much, since the car was the personal car of a dealer employee and only had 95 miles on the odometer. It felt strong, but maybe in retrospect not as strong as it should have been given the published stats.

MarkW

I know its a completely different engine, but I drove the S2000 recently which has similar 'lack' of torque and I found it surprisingly easy to drive and it didnt bother me at all.

After all the RX8 has as much torque as a 320i, and more than an IS200, or 2.0 X-Type

I just dont think you can expect to cruise around in a high gear at low rpm, and expect the car to take off without dropping down a cog or two.

I am more than happy to do this as the car will be fine to tootle around in as per a normal 4 cylinder family car, and when you want to drive fast it just requires use of the gearbox, which should be fun.

The only time I can see it being a problem (as I have the same issue in my STi with the turbo), is that you may get caught out ion certain occasions, as you cant just put your foot down and expect an instant response.

ChrisW

I have a Prelude VTEC which has about the same peak torque as the RX-8. For the first few months after I got it I sometimes felt a bit frustrated with the lack of low-end response - not that it was slow, just that it didn't feel like the performance car it was supposed to be.

I don't have any problem with it now, because I have adjusted my driving style. You have to anticipate a little more and be ready with the downchanges, but it soon becomes second nature. And the payoff when you get to really pile on the revs and enjoy the top end is well worth it. I find torquey cars rather dull to drive now.

Anyway, the torque curve of the 8 is much flatter than my Prelude so it should be even less of an issue.

morganrogers

Just to give my usual reply....

I am not in the slightest bit concerned at this.
The RX8 has more torque than my current car (Integra typeR) and similar performance.
Also , I have driven a rotary before , and *love* the power delivery.

Basically , as already said , it will drive just like any other moderate engine car (albeit a bit smoother).
What is does mean is that when you want it to *really* go , you have to be prepared to nail it.
When you are not used to it , it may seem odd. Certainly those of you used to turbos or large capacities may need to adjust a little but the overall reward is very sweet.
Personally , I would choose my 9,000rpm integra over a turbo6000rpm car anyday. It is just such a drivers experience.

The way rael is talking in this thread , it sounds as if you cannot drive this car at low revs. That simply is not the case. When the car is cold you drive it at less than 3,000rpm just like you would any other car , and you will notice no difference.

There really is no torque problem with this engine. There is a perception problem is all , and the cars being compared to it take a very different approach to power (i.e. large capacities).
Those who currently drive VTECs will know what to expect , just smoother. Anyone who is concerned should get themselves a drive in an S2000. This character of this engine is probably the closest you will find. Take it to 9,000rpm , hear the noise and then tell me you are worried about lack of torque.

The rotary remains my key reason for having the RX8. It upsets me that perception here sometimes goes towards "I love the RX despite the rotary" instead of "I love the RX because of the rotary".

Morgan.

renegade_si

EXactly

just keep the thing at high revs and in lower gears for more torque.

0-60 in 1st anyone? :D

The Ace

For those of you who have had no experience with rotaries, or even with the small VTEC engines, you have to understand one thing: these engines have lesser torque than the american engines, simply because they have smaller displacement. However, since they are FAR better engines, they can -and should- be revved much higher, and that is where they start to shine (and produce HP and torque).

You cannot treat a rotary, a 1.6lt VTEC, and a 3.5lt american engine in the same way. Sure, the american "dinosaur" has torque down low, but after 6K rpm, its finished. However, this is exactly where the wankel or the VTEC engine start to really produce power. Its a different mentality.....

And if you want to move fast, you cannt be lazy :p Thats why americans are sooooooooo "stupid" drivers, and getting killed driving at 55mph :D

ChrisW

The point is, if you want a high revving engine you can't have high torque (nor do you need it).

Imagine if the 8 had 50% more torque (220 lbft) and still revved to 9000 rpm. Power is torque x revs, so it would now produce 350 hp. And people would still complain that it didn't produce much torque for a 350 hp car (well Autocar would anyway...).

However this is not a problem because the quoted torque figure is measured at the crankshaft. What drives the car is torque at the wheels and this also depends on the gearing, and a high revving car would have a correspondingly higher final drive ratio.

Strictly speaking, if you are happy with the power, all that should matter about the torque curve is it's flatness (the flatter the better), not it's absolute value.

rael

These replies are a joy to read and how I understand the torque issue to be. I am more than happy to rev and play with the stick if need bet

But its not me writing these articles suggesting it has no torque!

rael.

oilman

JUST ONE SIMPLE QUESTION -

WHY IS EVERY CAR MAG REVIEWER CONCERNED?? I MUST ASSUME THEY DON'T KNOW DIDDLY!!

ANYWAY, I DON'T CARE:p

Cheers
Oilman

The Ace

Its because, when looking at the figures, you cannt help but notice that, when in the frame of comparison between 350Z and RX8, although the cars "aim" for the same demographics group, they have a -rather- small difference in max HP, but a *huge* difference in max torque. And that is to be noted by the reviewer, even if he knows/thinks/supposes that this will not play a major role in the performance of each car

And again, a car that produces its max figures way up in the RPM range (like VTECs and rotaries, even turbo ones), cannot be compared to an american dinosaur or generally to cars with huge engines, simply because its like comparing apples to oranges. Only thing connecting those two is -probably- the price.

And another fact is, a car that needs to be revved is not as "lazy" as a huge 3,5lt or 5lt pushrod, which has enough torque to pull a tractor at 1500rpms......

AnilS

BHP makes a car fast, TORQUE makes a car quick. The 8 wiil be quick enough for me. I'm comparing it to my previous cars;

Toyota Corolla GT Coupe - Brilliant
Nissan 200SX - Nice but twitchy
Vauxhall Carlton 3000 24V GSi - Torque monster.

AnilS.

Lock & Load

Rael most drivers will never be good enough to explore the rx8 limits ,the torque is not an issue , you have to know how to drive and from what i read at times i think the rx8 is to much of a car for some of our forum members you can drive this car very much as an everyday drive or you can give it heaps ,but you must know how and when to change gears and be able to maxzimize the cars potential and for the average driver this seems to be beyond their abilities the torque is not the problem its the driver.

The Ace

Well, its not actually "the driver", its the general assumptions that most of the drivers out there make about car engines.

For example, for someone who hasnt got the guts or doesnt even know that he can go over 6K RPMs in a S2K or in a RX8, those two cars will seem like dogs, and he'll go "where the hell are those 240HP ?"

When most cars today have a redline starting at 5K, and cut-off at 6,5-7K (even if that), the 8K redline, and the 9,5-10K fuel cut-offs of the S2K and the RX8 seem absolutely out-of-this world. So, its not a problem of the driver per se, its just that most of you are accustomed to such ideas, and the completely different (like VTECs and Rotaries) need A LOT of getting used to

Lock & Load

Ace you have a point but why buy a car with 9000rpm if you are to scared or not prepared to use its full rev range , some of the drivers who have never had a rotary before seem to be confused about the driving style needed to maxzimise the rx8s potential .

sixspeed

Don't understand the problem... all my cars see the rev limiter at least once a day. Isn't that the same for everybody??

:p


-andy-

rael

I intend to play with the gears at high revs having been used to that in my existing car. In fact, I understand that it will be easier to redline the 8 than in a normal car as the engine revs so freely.

Should go over 9300 and petrol cuts out what actually happens besides the revs falling. ie can one have the gas flat down at 9300 and it cuts out and then cuts back in again under 8500, revs to 9300 and cuts out again. Can this off/ on happen quickly and without harm?

rael

18ME

I was going to post the same thing.

Aren't rev limiters there to bounce off all the time.:D

On the discussion of torque, I've just had my Audi Tdi 1.9 QS remapped by AMD with a good torque figure result of 295 ft/lbs.

So I know driving the diesel will be a completely different drive to the RX8, so it will depend on my frame of mind when I get up in the morning.

The Ace

But you all dont understand what I wanted to say: its very easy for someone who has experience, or for someone who WANTS to "play" with such engines to discover their RPM limit , but its a totally different story for those who ARE USED to cars with 6K cut-offs............Catch my drift ?

And rael, this on/off/on/.... thing, sure it can happen, but are you willing to pay for a rebuilt shortly thereafter ?

rael

No, don't really catch your drift. My car redlines at 6k so I will rev up to that point in many cases and then change up. I am used to reving to the edge of the redline not a number.

In the 8 I can go up to 9k, probably with less noise and stress and therefore it will be easier to get there, hence the alarm.

rael

sixspeed

I'm still not sure of the point though. Don't people look at their rev-counters then? Surely the fact that the "redline" isn't until 9000rpm mean that people will push on until or near that point?

If someone is going to hit 6000rpm in a "normal" car, then they're surely the sort of person that does look at what rev's they're doing, so surely they'd just see the dial still has more to go and keep going.

Maybe it's my mentality, or the way I drive, but I don't see how if a rev limit is there, clear to see, that people who would use all the rev range of a "normal" car will not do the same in the RX8?


-andy-

rael

Agreed 6speed. It may in fact be easier to get here.

rael

MarkW

I have to test mine every day to check that the red light still comes on at 7000rpm :D

I look at my rev counter a lot more than the speedo as well. You usually get used to the sound and feel of the engine as well, so you know when to change up anyway. Not sure if this will be the same in the rotart because of the smoothness?

morganrogers

Yes, it'll be the same.
Dont panic - give the car to most people and they really wont be able to tell the difference.

Sure it does drive differently (read better ) than 'conventional' engines , but it is no big deal.

My fond hope is that you will all come to love the rotary.
I have wanted to get back to one ever since I lost my last one... That must say something !