Mazda wins Britain's Best Handling Car of 2003 !
09-06-2003, 01:32 PM
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Mazda wins Britain's Best Handling Car of 2003 !
In the 26 Aug issue of Autocar there is a big shootout article about choosing the Best Handling Car of 2003:
The group of selected best handlers started as:
Palmersport JP1
Ariel Atom
TVR 350C
GDT70 (Lola replica)
Porsche 911 GT3
Noble M12R
Caterham R400
Elise 135R
Vauxhall VX220T Sprint
Westfield XTR2
Radical SR3 LM
Lamborghini Murcielago
Pagani Zonda
Impreza Type-C
Mitsubishi EvoVIII FQ300
Alfa 147 GTA
Focus RS
Audi S4
BMW Z4
Porsche Boxster
Merc E55
Mini Cooper S Works
Renault Clio V6
Mazda RX-8
Jag XJR
Pug 206 GTi 180
Honda Accord 2.4 Type S
Volvo S60R
Astra GSi
Ford Sport Ka
Skoda Fabia RS
Mazda MX-5 (Miata)
Two participants from Mazda made it in the 32 - the RX-8 and the Miata
From these 32 cars, after the tests/competition 7 cars were selected as finalists:
Porsche 911 GT3
Noble M12
Caterham R400
Lamborghini Murcielago
Subaru Impreza Spec C
BMW Z4
Mazda MX-5 (Miata)
From these 7, as the best two were selected:
Porsche 911 GT3
Mazda MX-5 (Miata)
The choice of which of the two is the better one has been tough,
but in the end the winner The Best Handling Car of 2003:
Mazda MX-5 Miata
The drivers who tested the cars around the racetrack and selected the winner:
Tiff Needell (former F1 driver/broadcaster - ex BBC's Top Gear, Chan 5's 5th gear)
Justin Wilson (current Jaguar F1 driver)
Takuma Sato (current BAR F1 driver)
Michael Bentwood (BMW BTCC driver)
Phil Bennett (Proton BTCC works driver)
Martin Anderson (Lotus Technical Manager of vehicle dynamics)
Here are the words about the winner:
"The baby Mazda roadster is already a synonym for handling excellence, already holder of Autocar's best sub-£15k driver's car title. Its sublime flingability and nifty power-to-weight ratio sustain satisfaction like nothing else. It has delicious steering which combines pinpoint accuracy with perfect weighting. It turns in crisply, grips more than amply and has simply the most adjustable cornering balance. The precise gate and short-throw action of its gearchange are a joy, too. The whole MX-5 vibe is consistently engaging. It's the place input and feedback are perfectly synchronised. And it wins."
"And out most gifted testers were always amused by it, even if they'd just been extending themselves in the GT3. So the MX-5 wins, repeating the victory it scored after it was first launched in 1990. Britain's best driver's car under £15K is Britain's best handling car, period"
There is a big picture of Tiff Needell driving the Miata with this written next to it:
"Here is a photograph of former F1 racer Tiff Needell driving a Mazda MX-5 quite beautifully. It's perfectly balanced on the throttle, drifting gently towards the apex of the corner with a trace of opposite lock to keep things in check.
You can be sure Tiff is enjoying himself, because he loves driving the MX-5.
We all do - that's why it beat a Lamborghini Murcielago and a Pagani Zonda to win our Best Handling Car award this week"
This is about the Mazda RX-8:
"Better to drive on the road (I hope). On the track there's too much roll, too much body movement and not enough accuracy. The throttle response is also not too good and the brakes go off quickly. But at the limit there's good chassis balance and grip. Too much grip for the power, actually." - Takuma Sato
Big CONGRATULATIONS to Mazda for winning against the tough competition of so many great machines and having 2 Mazda cars among the best 32 handlers.
Here are some photo's I just've taken of the magazine:
The cover:
The group of selected best handlers started as:
Palmersport JP1
Ariel Atom
TVR 350C
GDT70 (Lola replica)
Porsche 911 GT3
Noble M12R
Caterham R400
Elise 135R
Vauxhall VX220T Sprint
Westfield XTR2
Radical SR3 LM
Lamborghini Murcielago
Pagani Zonda
Impreza Type-C
Mitsubishi EvoVIII FQ300
Alfa 147 GTA
Focus RS
Audi S4
BMW Z4
Porsche Boxster
Merc E55
Mini Cooper S Works
Renault Clio V6
Mazda RX-8
Jag XJR
Pug 206 GTi 180
Honda Accord 2.4 Type S
Volvo S60R
Astra GSi
Ford Sport Ka
Skoda Fabia RS
Mazda MX-5 (Miata)
Two participants from Mazda made it in the 32 - the RX-8 and the Miata
From these 32 cars, after the tests/competition 7 cars were selected as finalists:
Porsche 911 GT3
Noble M12
Caterham R400
Lamborghini Murcielago
Subaru Impreza Spec C
BMW Z4
Mazda MX-5 (Miata)
From these 7, as the best two were selected:
Porsche 911 GT3
Mazda MX-5 (Miata)
The choice of which of the two is the better one has been tough,
but in the end the winner The Best Handling Car of 2003:
Mazda MX-5 Miata
The drivers who tested the cars around the racetrack and selected the winner:
Tiff Needell (former F1 driver/broadcaster - ex BBC's Top Gear, Chan 5's 5th gear)
Justin Wilson (current Jaguar F1 driver)
Takuma Sato (current BAR F1 driver)
Michael Bentwood (BMW BTCC driver)
Phil Bennett (Proton BTCC works driver)
Martin Anderson (Lotus Technical Manager of vehicle dynamics)
Here are the words about the winner:
"The baby Mazda roadster is already a synonym for handling excellence, already holder of Autocar's best sub-£15k driver's car title. Its sublime flingability and nifty power-to-weight ratio sustain satisfaction like nothing else. It has delicious steering which combines pinpoint accuracy with perfect weighting. It turns in crisply, grips more than amply and has simply the most adjustable cornering balance. The precise gate and short-throw action of its gearchange are a joy, too. The whole MX-5 vibe is consistently engaging. It's the place input and feedback are perfectly synchronised. And it wins."
"And out most gifted testers were always amused by it, even if they'd just been extending themselves in the GT3. So the MX-5 wins, repeating the victory it scored after it was first launched in 1990. Britain's best driver's car under £15K is Britain's best handling car, period"
There is a big picture of Tiff Needell driving the Miata with this written next to it:
"Here is a photograph of former F1 racer Tiff Needell driving a Mazda MX-5 quite beautifully. It's perfectly balanced on the throttle, drifting gently towards the apex of the corner with a trace of opposite lock to keep things in check.
You can be sure Tiff is enjoying himself, because he loves driving the MX-5.
We all do - that's why it beat a Lamborghini Murcielago and a Pagani Zonda to win our Best Handling Car award this week"
This is about the Mazda RX-8:
"Better to drive on the road (I hope). On the track there's too much roll, too much body movement and not enough accuracy. The throttle response is also not too good and the brakes go off quickly. But at the limit there's good chassis balance and grip. Too much grip for the power, actually." - Takuma Sato
Big CONGRATULATIONS to Mazda for winning against the tough competition of so many great machines and having 2 Mazda cars among the best 32 handlers.
Here are some photo's I just've taken of the magazine:
The cover:
Last edited by jmanolov; 09-06-2003 at 02:49 PM.
09-06-2003, 03:28 PM
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Re: Mazda wins Britain's Best Handling Car of 2003 !
Originally posted by jmanolov
This is about the Mazda RX-8:
"Better to drive on the road (I hope). On the track there's too much roll, too much body movement and not enough accuracy. The throttle response is also not too good and the brakes go off quickly. But at the limit there's good chassis balance and grip. Too much grip for the power, actually." - Takuma Sato
This is about the Mazda RX-8:
"Better to drive on the road (I hope). On the track there's too much roll, too much body movement and not enough accuracy. The throttle response is also not too good and the brakes go off quickly. But at the limit there's good chassis balance and grip. Too much grip for the power, actually." - Takuma Sato
I have to agree... we need some stiffer springs/shocks big time
Congrats anyway to Mazda!!
09-06-2003, 04:40 PM
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Hmmm. That quote about the RX-8 is depressing but it was never designed as a track car so it's only to be expected. I'm surprised at the brake comment though: about the only saving grace of the car track-wise was supposed to be the fine braking system.
One thing: the RX-8 is not yet delivered in the UK and neither is the 350Z. The Z can trounce the RX-8 on the track, we know this, so why was the Mazda in the last 32 and not the Nissan?!
One thing: the RX-8 is not yet delivered in the UK and neither is the 350Z. The Z can trounce the RX-8 on the track, we know this, so why was the Mazda in the last 32 and not the Nissan?!
09-06-2003, 05:22 PM
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Originally posted by Kinnison
The Z can trounce the RX-8 on the track, we know this, so why was the Mazda in the last 32 and not the Nissan?!
The Z can trounce the RX-8 on the track, we know this, so why was the Mazda in the last 32 and not the Nissan?!
Because this competition was not about which car was faster around the track. It was not about which car had most power and most grip (sticky tires). It was about which car had the best handling (suspension, feel, etc.)
All the expensive supercars had faster laptimes around the track than both the Miata and the RX-8. The track dedicated machines like the Ariel Atom and the JP1 were even faster than anyone else.
The Miata was just a little bit faster than the RX-8 around the track.
But the fact that a car goes around the track quicker than another one is not a guarantee that the vibrations from it which your body feels thru the steering wheel lead to pure soul orgasm. The goal was to find the car which gives the driver most pleasure at speed.
Last edited by jmanolov; 09-06-2003 at 05:24 PM.
09-06-2003, 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by jmanolov
Because this competition was not about which car was faster around the track. It was not about which car had most power and most grip (sticky tires). It was about which car had the best handling (suspension, feel, etc.)
Because this competition was not about which car was faster around the track. It was not about which car had most power and most grip (sticky tires). It was about which car had the best handling (suspension, feel, etc.)
09-06-2003, 08:49 PM
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the z does not handle supremely well, my freind (who owns one) complains about it sometimes, but always brags about the GOB LOADS of torque
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09-07-2003, 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by Kinnison
That much was obvious and I repeat that the 350Z will beat the RX-8 in this regard. The Z handles better on a track than the RX-8 (based on all available evidence - I can't claim to have driven either).
That much was obvious and I repeat that the 350Z will beat the RX-8 in this regard. The Z handles better on a track than the RX-8 (based on all available evidence - I can't claim to have driven either).
09-07-2003, 11:39 AM
#12
Originally posted by m477
Seriously, there's already enough "magazine racer" bullshit on this site as it is. If you don't have anything meaningful to contribute, don't bother.
Seriously, there's already enough "magazine racer" bullshit on this site as it is. If you don't have anything meaningful to contribute, don't bother.
09-07-2003, 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by m477
Seriously, there's already enough "magazine racer" bullshit on this site as it is. If you don't have anything meaningful to contribute, don't bother.
Seriously, there's already enough "magazine racer" bullshit on this site as it is. If you don't have anything meaningful to contribute, don't bother.
Actually this was an interesting experiment because I'm not a newbie like you think but a full on poster who you know well. I wanted to see how a newcomer would be treated and as I predicted I was treated badly. Betcha wouldn't have done that if I'd used my usual name.
Last edited by Kinnison; 09-07-2003 at 12:57 PM.
09-07-2003, 01:24 PM
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what is your usual name?
anyways...the z would beat the 8 around a track, but it wouldnt out handle it, the z's a pretty sloppy handeler (according to some ppl who drive it) anyway, i gotta agree, those few outbursts were pretty stupid, though the way your post came out could have been seen as an idiot troll bitching and whining, especially with the "all evidence" and "havent driven either" type stuff they always throw in there
m477, ive been meaning to ask, do you Dj?
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anyways...the z would beat the 8 around a track, but it wouldnt out handle it, the z's a pretty sloppy handeler (according to some ppl who drive it) anyway, i gotta agree, those few outbursts were pretty stupid, though the way your post came out could have been seen as an idiot troll bitching and whining, especially with the "all evidence" and "havent driven either" type stuff they always throw in there
m477, ive been meaning to ask, do you Dj?
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09-07-2003, 02:55 PM
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At the risk of getting flamed like a million times over--handling is a pretty subjective term and it can be (and often is) defined a million different ways. In terms of cornering speed, the Fujita RX-8 beat the 350z (don't remember who modded it) through the turns in the video ... but then again, neither were stock. In terms of lateral acceleration, I'm pretty sure the Z gets more gs than the 8 (correct me if I'm wrong). Then, you can talk about handling in terms of polar moment of inertia, in which case the 8 would probably win because the renesis is so far back in the chassis. So yeah, I guess if you say the Z or the 8 has better handling, it really depends on what definition you're using. Or you could just say which one is more fun in the corners 
.
On another note, I am very impressed that the Miata won best-handling car when the Radical SR3 was also tested. The SR3 weighs like half as much as the Miata and gets 1.4 Gs in lateral acceleration. They must have been really impressed (go Tiff!). Congratulations Mazda! By the way, does anyone know how recently the chassis/suspension/other handling stuff was updated on the Miata? I know the engine has been updated since the original, but the rear end (styling-wise, at least) hasn't changed--that's why I ask. If it isn't even new suspension, that makes Mazdas win all the more impressive. :D
.On another note, I am very impressed that the Miata won best-handling car when the Radical SR3 was also tested. The SR3 weighs like half as much as the Miata and gets 1.4 Gs in lateral acceleration. They must have been really impressed (go Tiff!). Congratulations Mazda! By the way, does anyone know how recently the chassis/suspension/other handling stuff was updated on the Miata? I know the engine has been updated since the original, but the rear end (styling-wise, at least) hasn't changed--that's why I ask. If it isn't even new suspension, that makes Mazdas win all the more impressive. :D
09-07-2003, 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by Kinnison
You know, there was I with the best of intentions, trying to make a serious point using my real opinion based on observation and a lot of evidence and all I get is abuse. You guys have a SERIOUSLY bad attitude problem (especially you Herc) and you should be ashamed of yourselves. Just because you don't like or agree with my contribution shouldn't mean that you feel the need to trash it so rudely. I say again: a properly set up 350Z will out handle an RX-8 on the track. The Z was designed as a road going track car whereas the RX-8 was designed as a sporty road car. I prefer the RX-8 and I have one on order (have had for months) so this is no idle troll post. Hell, you've driven both of them Hercules so shoot me down properly if you disagree just don't be so rude!
Actually this was an interesting experiment because I'm not a newbie like you think but a full on poster who you know well. I wanted to see how a newcomer would be treated and as I predicted I was treated badly. Betcha wouldn't have done that if I'd used my usual name.
You know, there was I with the best of intentions, trying to make a serious point using my real opinion based on observation and a lot of evidence and all I get is abuse. You guys have a SERIOUSLY bad attitude problem (especially you Herc) and you should be ashamed of yourselves. Just because you don't like or agree with my contribution shouldn't mean that you feel the need to trash it so rudely. I say again: a properly set up 350Z will out handle an RX-8 on the track. The Z was designed as a road going track car whereas the RX-8 was designed as a sporty road car. I prefer the RX-8 and I have one on order (have had for months) so this is no idle troll post. Hell, you've driven both of them Hercules so shoot me down properly if you disagree just don't be so rude!
Actually this was an interesting experiment because I'm not a newbie like you think but a full on poster who you know well. I wanted to see how a newcomer would be treated and as I predicted I was treated badly. Betcha wouldn't have done that if I'd used my usual name.
You're trying to pass off your opinion on two cars you have never driven as somehow being relevant. It doesn't matter if you have 1 post or 10000 posts, you WILL get called out on that kind of crap here.
So what is your "real" name then?
09-07-2003, 04:36 PM
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09-07-2003, 04:55 PM
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And out most gifted testers were always amused by it
09-07-2003, 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by Kinnison
You know, there was I with the best of intentions, trying to make a serious point using my real opinion based on observation and a lot of evidence and all I get is abuse. You guys have a SERIOUSLY bad attitude problem (especially you Herc) and you should be ashamed of yourselves. Just because you don't like or agree with my contribution shouldn't mean that you feel the need to trash it so rudely. I say again: a properly set up 350Z will out handle an RX-8 on the track. The Z was designed as a road going track car whereas the RX-8 was designed as a sporty road car. I prefer the RX-8 and I have one on order (have had for months) so this is no idle troll post. Hell, you've driven both of them Hercules so shoot me down properly if you disagree just don't be so rude!
Actually this was an interesting experiment because I'm not a newbie like you think but a full on poster who you know well. I wanted to see how a newcomer would be treated and as I predicted I was treated badly. Betcha wouldn't have done that if I'd used my usual name.
You know, there was I with the best of intentions, trying to make a serious point using my real opinion based on observation and a lot of evidence and all I get is abuse. You guys have a SERIOUSLY bad attitude problem (especially you Herc) and you should be ashamed of yourselves. Just because you don't like or agree with my contribution shouldn't mean that you feel the need to trash it so rudely. I say again: a properly set up 350Z will out handle an RX-8 on the track. The Z was designed as a road going track car whereas the RX-8 was designed as a sporty road car. I prefer the RX-8 and I have one on order (have had for months) so this is no idle troll post. Hell, you've driven both of them Hercules so shoot me down properly if you disagree just don't be so rude!
Actually this was an interesting experiment because I'm not a newbie like you think but a full on poster who you know well. I wanted to see how a newcomer would be treated and as I predicted I was treated badly. Betcha wouldn't have done that if I'd used my usual name.
I didn't even care about what YOU posted, I just agreed with what was said about magazine racers that frequent this site and others. It's just pathetic and if that's what people want from a car, is amazing stats in a magazine then don't buy the bloody RX-8 because on paper... it's not comparable to so many other cars.
09-09-2003, 09:07 PM
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Originally posted by Hercules
Then keep doing your 'experiements' and if you act like a troll... then don't be suprised when you get the replies you did.
I didn't even care about what YOU posted, I just agreed with what was said about magazine racers that frequent this site and others. It's just pathetic and if that's what people want from a car, is amazing stats in a magazine then don't buy the bloody RX-8 because on paper... it's not comparable to so many other cars.
Then keep doing your 'experiements' and if you act like a troll... then don't be suprised when you get the replies you did.
I didn't even care about what YOU posted, I just agreed with what was said about magazine racers that frequent this site and others. It's just pathetic and if that's what people want from a car, is amazing stats in a magazine then don't buy the bloody RX-8 because on paper... it's not comparable to so many other cars.
09-10-2003, 02:41 AM
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Originally posted by Hercules
Then keep doing your 'experiements' and if you act like a troll... then don't be suprised when you get the replies you did.
I didn't even care about what YOU posted, I just agreed with what was said about magazine racers that frequent this site and others. It's just pathetic and if that's what people want from a car, is amazing stats in a magazine then don't buy the bloody RX-8 because on paper... it's not comparable to so many other cars.
Then keep doing your 'experiements' and if you act like a troll... then don't be suprised when you get the replies you did.
I didn't even care about what YOU posted, I just agreed with what was said about magazine racers that frequent this site and others. It's just pathetic and if that's what people want from a car, is amazing stats in a magazine then don't buy the bloody RX-8 because on paper... it's not comparable to so many other cars.
Secondly: I was making a serious point about the results of the test being flawed (and sticking up for the RX-8) because if the Z wasn't in the first 32 then it can't have been a representative test. Especially as Tiff Needell loves the Zs' handling ('Fifth Gear' 2001). I guess you (plural) are just so sensitive that you missed that or was it that you never gave me time to expand the discussion before you got your flame-throwers out? D'ya think perhaps there's a reason WHY the moderators have kicked your butt Hercules. I think there might be...
09-10-2003, 05:34 AM
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I agree with Kinnison,
I think Z is a better performance car, only wins in this aspect or subject (I don't know how it's said), but I prefer the RX8 and I've ordered one.
I think Z is a better performance car, only wins in this aspect or subject (I don't know how it's said), but I prefer the RX8 and I've ordered one.
09-10-2003, 06:14 AM
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Originally posted by Kinnison
You know, there was I with the best of intentions, trying to make a serious point using my real opinion based on observation and a lot of evidence and all I get is abuse. You guys have a SERIOUSLY bad attitude problem (especially you Herc) and you should be ashamed of yourselves. Just because you don't like or agree with my contribution shouldn't mean that you feel the need to trash it so rudely. I say again: a properly set up 350Z will out handle an RX-8 on the track. The Z was designed as a road going track car whereas the RX-8 was designed as a sporty road car. I prefer the RX-8 and I have one on order (have had for months) so this is no idle troll post. Hell, you've driven both of them Hercules so shoot me down properly if you disagree just don't be so rude!
Actually this was an interesting experiment because I'm not a newbie like you think but a full on poster who you know well. I wanted to see how a newcomer would be treated and as I predicted I was treated badly. Betcha wouldn't have done that if I'd used my usual name.
You know, there was I with the best of intentions, trying to make a serious point using my real opinion based on observation and a lot of evidence and all I get is abuse. You guys have a SERIOUSLY bad attitude problem (especially you Herc) and you should be ashamed of yourselves. Just because you don't like or agree with my contribution shouldn't mean that you feel the need to trash it so rudely. I say again: a properly set up 350Z will out handle an RX-8 on the track. The Z was designed as a road going track car whereas the RX-8 was designed as a sporty road car. I prefer the RX-8 and I have one on order (have had for months) so this is no idle troll post. Hell, you've driven both of them Hercules so shoot me down properly if you disagree just don't be so rude!
Actually this was an interesting experiment because I'm not a newbie like you think but a full on poster who you know well. I wanted to see how a newcomer would be treated and as I predicted I was treated badly. Betcha wouldn't have done that if I'd used my usual name.
350z
IMHO the 8 wins in the handling department, I own one. As far as my prediction of the 8 beating the 350z on the track, ask Mazda where the HP went. I think the 8 would win if it had the power as advertised. Wouldacouldashoulda
D-san
Edit: I agree with the attitude situation on this forum. It seems that the only thing most of the mods/post ****** can do is boost the fanboys, drop kick the critics, and shuffle threads around.
Last edited by Digisan; 09-10-2003 at 06:25 AM.
09-10-2003, 08:50 AM
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I never ended up test-driving the Z - made it to the 8 first, and given its practicality combined with the way it drove, it was love at first drive. That said, I would *think* that it might come down to a push between the two cars in terms of handling for their current setup - after all the 350z is designed to have more of a track feel to it - stiffer suspension, a much 'rougher' ride.
But that is out of the factory. Tweaking the suspension on the 8 I can't think there would be *any* comparison between the two in terms of handling given the weight distribution... simple fact is that the 8 is set up to be a smooth ride, whereas the 350z is not.
As for the flaming, these boards have gotten a little crazy even in the short time I've been here. I can see somewhat where Zoomster and Herc come from with their frustration given the fact that there ARE plenty of trolls who hang around these boards. You see the same names making the same comments in different threads all over the place. When someone else comes in and intentionally makes troll-like comments even though they are supposedly an experienced poster on these boards, what kind of reaction do they expect? If I *want* to **** someone off, and I *try* to **** someone off, why should I be surprised when they get pissed off?
On the other hand Herc and Zoomster, take a deep breath Smile. Trolls get a kick out of the responses you give them - that is why they are trolls. Theyd angle the bait and you take it hook, line and sinker. Controversy and starting arguments is what makes their day. Just pat them on the head, treat them like the children they are and move on... they will get bored soon enough.
But that is out of the factory. Tweaking the suspension on the 8 I can't think there would be *any* comparison between the two in terms of handling given the weight distribution... simple fact is that the 8 is set up to be a smooth ride, whereas the 350z is not.
As for the flaming, these boards have gotten a little crazy even in the short time I've been here. I can see somewhat where Zoomster and Herc come from with their frustration given the fact that there ARE plenty of trolls who hang around these boards. You see the same names making the same comments in different threads all over the place. When someone else comes in and intentionally makes troll-like comments even though they are supposedly an experienced poster on these boards, what kind of reaction do they expect? If I *want* to **** someone off, and I *try* to **** someone off, why should I be surprised when they get pissed off?
On the other hand Herc and Zoomster, take a deep breath
Smile. Trolls get a kick out of the responses you give them - that is why they are trolls. Theyd angle the bait and you take it hook, line and sinker. Controversy and starting arguments is what makes their day. Just pat them on the head, treat them like the children they are and move on... they will get bored soon enough.
09-10-2003, 10:40 AM
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Originally posted by aussie77
When someone else comes in and intentionally makes troll-like comments even though they are supposedly an experienced poster on these boards, what kind of reaction do they expect?
When someone else comes in and intentionally makes troll-like comments even though they are supposedly an experienced poster on these boards, what kind of reaction do they expect?
Right: enough of this. I never intended to provoke this level of discontent (my 'experiment' wasn't deliberate: there was a good reason why I chose to log on as another name).