blacksheep515

iTrader: (1)

I have decided to lower the R3, but I wanted a simple suspension setup. Just dampers and lowering springs.

Due to the fact that the S2's (including R3's) have a different rear lower suspension perch on the damper, using the S1 springs on them will make the car sit weirdly and will not lower it to the intended height. While some are OK with it and still use S1 springs, I was not. I decided to hunt for some replacement dampers as well.

Before someone says coilovers - I did not want cheap coilovers - the only ones I wanted to get are the Ohlin DFV Road and Track, but I cannot justify the price since I am not tracking it. Most $1000 and under coilovers are junk IMHO. A good spring and damper combo will easily outperform them. Also, coilovers come with some maintenance and I did not want to deal with it.

So, during damper selection, I considered a few and turned them down:

- Tokico FSD was eliminated from the list as I did not want to deal with the rear adjustors and cutting holes in the trunk panel.

- Koni Yellows sounded good, but eliminated since the removing the rear to set stiffening etc sounded like a PITA

I have been a Bilstein fan and used them other cars I have owned, notably 3 of my 5 Evo's and my Integra's. Their piston response is among one of the fastest which is why they seem softer than other shocks, but yet are very firm on the track. Their piston rod is also larger than most other manufacturers.

- I considered the Bilstein B6 or the Bilstein HD as they are known in the USA. In talking to Bilstein USA, they could not confirm if the B6 is valved to handle lowering springs and they said that lowering springs would most likely void the warranty when used on them.

- I then heard about the Bilstein B8's which are dampers with shortened piston rods and valved specifically for lowering springs. These can actually be purchased with the Eibach pro-kit springs and referred to as the B12 damper set from Bilstein direct.

Unfortunately, the B8's are unavailable in the USA or Canada. I tried Bilstein USA and they said I would have to go thru a vendor. I tried to order thru different vendors using the P/N's I found, but no luck. I even tried goodwin racing and they said they had not heard of them. So I exited this infinite loop I was stick in by deciding to order from Europe where they were available.

Anyways, I ordered them 2 weeks ago and received them today. Here are some pictures and such. I will be doing detailed measurements comparing these to the OEM R3 Bilsteins and such when I work on lowering the car and will update this thread.

Box from Bilstein Germany:


View inside the box:


Part #'s:



Fronts:


Rears:

Orthonormal

I think you have the front & rear photos mislabeled, but it will be clear when you try to install them.

blacksheep515

iTrader: (1)

Opps, was a late night - Yes, I uploaded wrong pics to each. Thanks, Ortho!

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Nice, what springs did you decide on? Also what did this setup run you?

RX8pwnage

iTrader: (1)

sub'd

blacksheep515

iTrader: (1)

This was expensive compared to Koni or Tokico FSD - Close to 900 bux, but shipping from UK is what killed me the most at close to $200 But, these are re-buildable by Bilstein USA to whatever spring I want to in the future. The shortened damper is really what I wanted to start off with.

Springs wise - Based on all my research here, the top 3 I had narrowed down to the following:

- Swift Sport Mach

Again, ran Swift in several of my old cars like Evo's, s2000 etc). About the highest spring rates and minimal drop. Most expensive spring out there other than JDM like Autoexe and Magic-R which I think actually Eibach pro-kit rebadged (spring rates and drop height is same, color is also same and they say its was made by Eibach)

- Tein S-tech

Again higher spring rate and decent drop, but have had bad experiences with tein in the past, so it was my last option.

- Espelier Active Down GT (This was my choice)

It has THE highest spring rates and drop is not too much. All of the rates are in the S1 spring sticky, so I won't bore you with it here.

Regarding drop, from googling, translating japanese sites and such - from what I have read, the max suggested drop for the S2 is 35mm from stock. Any more and it says compromises handling and geometry and needs much more tweaking.

So, I went with the Espelier as I found a brand new seat for a steal.

I did read one bad review here with spring bind and looked as those spring was binding, unsure of what the deal was there, but he was using a Koni low pressure damper or something, I am hoping I don't have such issues.

I am hoping to find a set of Swift Sport Mach's on sale or something and I will sell the Espeliers off to make up.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Cool. Yeah usually the binding is actually caused by bad shocks and I have see that happen on two cars with Koni yellows and on my own car with the Tokico's and a buddies with D specs. I have heard of it happening on a few other D spec equipped cars as well. This is probably a rocking set it and forget it setup. I look forward to seeing pics and hearing the results.

blacksheep515

iTrader: (1)

Yes, exactly what I want. Put it on, call it a day and never have to mess with it again. Like stock, but just a little better. I will keep stockers to sell with the car.

kster

Looks like a good setup; I'm looking forward to seeing how the car sits and feels.

You'll also have the option to sell the OEM Bilsteins. I threw mine in the trash way back when but I've had a few people ask me if I still has the stock springs/shocks available.

G_ man

iTrader: (2)

I'm also interested in the final out come, make sure to post pics, before/after

blacksheep515

iTrader: (1)

Thanks, boss. I would love to have Ohlins like you. They were and are my 1st choice, I just cannot justify dropping that money on a car I won't track as much, if at all. What started as a "just lower the car" grew on to this proportion.....

I am still not confident about the espelier. I would be happier with the swifts, but I may try the espelier 1st since I have them.

I will definitely post pics of the struts, compare them in detail etc - I will also measure ride heights etc...

The bilsteins sping perches are interesting. They slide down over the damper and sit on this really thin c-ring. Almost scary as I worry if the spring and the compression will push it down farther. I wonder if OEM Bilstein is the same way...

I am unsure if I will sell the OEM Bilsteins, if I sell the car someday, I will give it to the new owner or sell at that point if I trade in. Dealer replacement cost is pretty ridiculous.

More to come, waiting for winter to come around, since its a slower time for me.

moeswrx

iTrader: (2)

Considering your total cost, did you looked at the pss9? I'd been considering a better suspension for my R3 as well but is in the same dilemma as you were, coilovers or a set it and forget it system. What kind of maintenance do coilovers need that swayed you away from them? Good luck and can't wait for the before & after pics. It's going to be nice not seeing that big wheel gap.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

The collars are fine and are used in many custom Bilstein race setups. The OEM Bilsteins have different perches. Two of my friends have somewhat similar yet different setups from Fat Cat on their 8's.

blacksheep515

iTrader: (1)

I like coilovers for their adjustability, but again you really do adjust it and such when racing. To get the most out of a coilover, you need to lower it and get it corner balanced while doing so. You also need a performance alignment to get the best out of it. Everytime you change the height, you do this all over again.

I really don't need that sort of adjustibility. Coilovers are inherently noisy. The springs do turn in the perches and best way to keep them from making noise is using torrington bearings. Also, the lower collars can seize up and such.

The spring rates of coilovers are HIGH. The RX8 is stiff as-is and I don't want a bone-jarring ride and I think it will increase NVH to some level.

I will say a really expensive coilover which is well worth the money like Ohlin Road and Tracks like kster has on his R3 is the BEST OF THE BEST. The other $1000 coilovers are not worth it at all, unless you want to have stance and be hellaflush...

I am involved in the auto biz industry actually, so I know a bit of what I am talking about.

Don't get me wrong - PSS9 is a great coilover, way better than the megans, Ksport, BC, D2 and some other entry level coilovers. It would have cost me $500 more or so. I wanted to use the money towards alignment and maybe some new 17" trasher wheels instead. I love my R3 wheels and paranoid I will curb them driving hard.

H&R makes a decent coilover as well which uses the bilstein mono damper, but I could not find spring rates and they won't divulge it - the bastholes.

Bottom line - I just did not want to deal with coilovers. I have no need for them. I decided I wanted a damn good set it and forget it setup, so I went this route.

Again, many people love coilovers and I don't want to come off as being a hater. They have a lot of advantages, none for me that were worth it.

blacksheep515

iTrader: (1)

Interesting - Any links to their setups? Fatcat was quite expensive, but I am sure well worth it.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

It depends what exactly you want. Houstonrx8er has far less expensive setup with Bilstein B6's and Fat Cat sleeves and progress tech springs. Hoss-05 has full Custom setup of Bilstein coilovers.

blacksheep515

iTrader: (1)

From what I saw, he used ground control sleeves for coilovers for the Miata etc. That is a great setup.

I am thinking if I wanted stiffer springs someday, I will do ground controls (eibach springs) on sleeves for bilsteinor something....I just cannot nail down what top hats they use with the ground control springs right now. I don't think stock will work with the coilover spring ID. The bilsteins can be re-valved in the future to support the spring rate which is the nice part, so I can go up on valving if I do stiffer springs.

I doubt I will tho. I just want to bolt this on, get a more aggressive alignment and call it a day!

Orthonormal

OE Bilsteins on the 2nd generation Miata used snap rings to support the lower spring seats. So do aftermarket Konis on the 1st generation Miata. It makes it much easier to change the spring seat height than it is with welded seats. Just chuck the shock into a lathe, cut a new groove, and move the snap ring.

Not all coilovers are noisy. If the springs are too short to be slightly compressed with the shocks at full extension, then yes they will rattle and spin and all sorts of things. The solution is to choose springs with the right length for the height you want, or use "helper springs" to keep them in place. Cheap JDM bling coilovers, yeah, I'm with you on those...if they're not improperly engineered, they're at least almost always improperly installed...

blacksheep515

iTrader: (1)

Ortho - You are a wealth of knowledge, sir. I always find your posts to be helpful and insightful. So, thanks for your contributions.

Good to know that I can put it in a lathe and cut a new groove. Right now, the B8's comes with only groove. I assume the groove is at stock perch height. I will find out more during deconstruction.

I agree, not all coilovers are junk. The PSS9, H&R, KW, Ohlins, etc are all very good setups and well-engineered. Just overkill for this setup of mine. Again, I would have done coilovers if I could justify them.

Orthonormal

I'd probably send them to Bilstein for the actual cutting. They'll know how to cut it so the shock isn't damaged and the groove doesn't create a stress concentration that promotes cracking.

Moby

iTrader: (6)

Any updates?

blacksheep515

iTrader: (1)

No, Moby. I have had no time to even touch the car in the last month. I took her in for the 25K service and its been siting. I have some swift springs I got as well which I did not even open up to look at. Life has been hectic. I am hoping this winter sometime...

SpencerM1

iTrader: (1)

I understand the paranoia related to the R3 wheels.

Looking forward to possibly copying your setup in the future.

tla88

Are the springs that come OEM on the 2011 R3 lower and shorter than the 2011 RX8 Sport? I know the shocks are different because the R3 has bilstein, but am not sure if the r3 actually stands lower.