tmak26b

I am thinking about going back to Carbotech XP8. Anyone know how they compare to the Cobalt Friction XR1/XR2? They would be used to drive to and from track and the track day itself.

mrslysly

I use xp10 up front and xp8 in rear. Leave em in all the time. The xp8's don't squeak but the xp10's do. xp10's dust a fair amount too. With 245 stickier dot legal tires I get some freaking amazing stopping power. Better than an STI with 265 race rubber. And the pads show almost no wear even after running Road America, a few local AutoX's, a few local tracks, then Mid America Motorplex.

From the rest of the guys I drive with, they all seem to like Carbotech for stopping power and for how long the pads last.

tmak26b

I have had good luck with Carbotech, was looking to see if it was worth it to make the jump. Carbotech it is. I am going to go XP8 all around as I like the way the balance stock.

justjim

I have used both at the track (road course). I've used the Carbotech XP10 front XP8 rear combo with good results. I'm now using the Cobalt XR2 front and XR5 rear combo also with comparable good results. I also used the Cobalt XR1 for the front when they were out of the XR2s. The Cobalt XR1 would be more comparable to the Carbotech XP12. The XR2 gives plenty bite and the XR1 is probably overkill for a stock RX8 on R-compounds. I think its a toss up between the Cobalt XR2/XR5 vs Carbotech XP10/XP8. I shifted to the Cobalts because I think they last a little longer but the dust is more corrosive. If it gets wet it makes a film on your wheels and paint suitable for re-entry coatings for the space shuttle. The Carbotech dust is less problematic. I just clean my wheels after a track day. Both have similar coefficients of friction and published temp ranges, flip a coin.

tmak26b

Thanks you are awesome. Carbotech lasted 4 days on my Z car, 6 days on the Corvette, I am hoping 8 days on the RX-8

mrslysly

8 days? WOW! The Carbotechs come with a lot of material on the pads. I want to know what you are doing if they only last 8 days.

justjim

It all depends on the track and the driver. With my FWD Acura on R-compounds I would only get about 3 track days with the front pads with Carbotech and maybe 4 with the Cobalts. I'm getting about 4 to 5 on the front with Cobalts in my RX8 on R-compounds. Sebring is a brake intensive road course and I like to go deep

tmak26b

Driving hard? I don't know. I said 8 days based on my experience with them on the other cars, I might jizz my pants if i get 10 days

fastlaneracing

10 days?!? do you mean 10 days straight at a track or what? I see a lesson in correct braking needed...

Striker-7

iTrader: (3)

I would be interested in these 'lessons', as I killed a set of Hawk Performance Ceramics in 3 days (4 24-min sessions over 3 days) at Watkins Glen, a known "heavy braking" track.

Yes, I am serious about the lessons. The more track time I get, the more I realize the enormous amount I don't know. Pointers definitely welcome.

Spin9k

You guys must drive some crazy out there. I've had a set of XR2/XR5 pads on my car since last year and have done maybe 30-40 hrs on track plus daily driving (I never take them off) and they're perhaps 1/2 worn if that.

You need to use that small pedal to the right more than the middle one!

justjim

When I had my FWD Acura I went through a brand new set of front Ferodo DS3000 track pads in less than a day on the short course at Sebring. By 3pm I was running on the backing plate. Like I said above it all depends on the track as well as the driver. I've only driven 4 different tracks, 5 if you count the Sebring short course as a separate track and I would rank them by braking severity as
1. Sebring short course (high speed 115 to 35 hairpin braking but not enough cool down time.)
2. Sebring long course.
3. Homestead
4. Moroso
5. Barber Motorsports

I would probably get 10 track days if I was only doing Barber or Moroso. I'm not sure if I'd get more than 2-3 on the Sebring short course (not sure haven't done it with the RX8 using Carbotech or Cobalts) If you have a BBK on your RX8 your pads will last longer because they run cooler. On my Acura I was able to get 1 extra track day of pad life by fabricating a brake duct to the center of the rotor hat.

Spin you must be on a brake friendly track, either that or you have time to gain on your laps I strongly disagree with the use of the clutch for slowing down. That technique went out in the late 50's with the development of disc brakes. Brakes are for stopping the car, clutches are for facilitating take offs and gear selection and should not be used to slow the car. The brakes are fully capable of locking up the tires without assistance from the very expensive clutch and the wear on the engine. When I brake from 4th gear at 115mph to 35 mph I skip 3rd and wait for the proper speed just before corner entry, blip the throttle with my heel to match revs, and select 2nd gear, all while the ball of my foot is hard on the brake pedal. Done correctly the engine braking is minimal to non-existent. That way you can run deep, brake hard, trail brake through the entry, be in the correct gear and be on your way. Brake pads are way cheaper than clutches and they work better too.

RK

iTrader: (1)

FWIW I've found that putting a coat of detail spray on the wheels before I attend weekend schools makes removing the Cobalt dust a lot easier. Aside from the occasional rubber globs that requires significant scrubbing my wheels clean off very quickly. Just a coat of megualars or Zaino Z6 does the trick.

And $.02 I've loved my Cobalt 2/5 combo. Great grip when needed but if you're a novice/intermediate driver like me they last a long time. I went through 5 full schools at midohio, sebring, and nelsons ledges with them and they're about half gone.

And I think Spin was jokingly referring to the gas pedal rather than the clutch. Typically the gas pedal's on the right. vb

justjim

Oops my bad, don't know my left from my right, I shall step down from my soapbox, my apologies to Spin9k I just screw my accelerator pedal to the floor and leave it there, just kill the ignition if you want to stop!

Spin9k

haha see you've stopped chewing on that darn foot. ...yes the right is the go-pedal But really...I'd say it the other way around..."If you've got to slow down alot, you've got a lot of time to gain on your laps."

fastlaneracing

I don't know how that track is looking and I have no familiar with Hawk pads, but you probably know what you are doing.

if somebody says they wear out high performance pads in 4-10 days (not saying they where at a track every day) I think they exaggerate our need to think about how they brake.

Carbotech XP8 does have alot of material and I use them on my RX-8, im not a professional driver by no means but my pads usually last 3-4 track days (75-100 laps per track day) and alot of street driving between.

Its easy to make them wear out quicker then that with wrong braking method so instead of buying alot of expensive pads all the time its maybe better to go to a track event with an instuctor and learn how to brake correctly.

justjim

Another point that needs to be made is that a street pad that performs and wears well on the street will not last long when pushed hard on the track. Anybody that takes Hawk Ceramics or something comparable to the track will quickly exceed the limits of those pads as their driving skills progress and those or comparable pads can be killed off in a single day if driven quickly because they are not meant for the track. Pads appropriate for the track will last longer than street pads when driven the same way on the track. I guess if you think I'm using poor braking technique in the advanced group because I only get 4 to 5 track days (16 to 20 track hours) on a set of front pads I'm open to suggestions to improve my technique.

I would describe my technique, whether it's good or bad, as threshold braking, that is a hard stab at the brakes at the end of the straight but not hard enough to lock them or set off ABS, followed by a transition to trail braking about 1/4 to 1/2 way into the turn. I would describe my car's attitude as good throughout, I'm not plowing or sliding into or through the turns. I will say that the RX8 is an order of magnitude better at braking than my previous FWD car and the brakes last longer as a result.

I just feel that alot of this discussion is apples compared to oranges. One driver is using track pads on a gentle (not brake intensive) course, another is using street pads on a brake intensive course and other are using track pads on brake intensive or street pads on gentle courses. Everybody is feeling the elephant with their blindfold on and is describing the creature by their narrow perspective. Me too.

fastlaneracing

My post wasn't directed to you and Carbotech is track pads?

Spin9k

Without riding with someone, on their particular courses, you're right of course, there are many factors playing into the differening experiences everyone seems to be relating. Still I don't know whether to give condolences or be in awe. Personally, I would in go into shock to go thru a set of pads in 3 or 4 trackdays, I don't care what the venue. I've been to enough of them myself (from 22 turn 3+miles tracks to 12 turn 1+mile tracks to know each is unique and often so challenging that I often wonder just how the rather ordinary brakes in the 8 have the fortitude they do. Just talking to other participants at any trackday bemoan their braking problems and I'm like " ...really?"

And to think you guys can tear up a set of track pads like cereal is downright scary! At that rate I'd need to buy multiple sets of pad to wear out on a single set of NT-01s for example. I can also say I'd love to do a session or 10 at these types of tracks where this happens. There's no more fun to be had than a devilishly twisty brake intensive course while watching the competition wear down due to brake problems.

justjim

Carbotech makes a range of pads from street (Bobcat), Autocross (AX6), and track only (XP8, XP10, XP12, and XP16).

Striker-7

iTrader: (3)

It was downright scary to see the damage I'd done to those Hawks over just two days at WGI, when the same pad had lasted six days / three events and transiting 1,000 miles of B-roads / interstate with much less wear. After sitting down with a few other car owners, we decided it wasn't my braking technique so much as the difference between when I'd begun tracking at a braking-neutral course (VIR, two high-speed / no elevation change braking zones) to Watkins Glen (four high-speed / descending elevation braking zones and one flat heavy braking), plus gaining speed with experience.

In retrospect, those "enhanced street pads" never stood a chance. They had to endure much, much higher temperature and duration of braking than I'd ever used before, with a healthy engine to add further insult to injury.

Now I have to chime in with a question: Carbotech XP8 at all four corners as the next step up, or Hawk HP+, or the Cobalt? A fellow RX-8 owner/instructor at VIR favors the Carbotech brand, but I'm open to suggestion.

Spin9k

I have a set of HP+s (all 4 wheels) you can have for shipping and $20, about a third used up. I tracked them them for a while and kept thinking "...is this all there is??..." They're that good...

swoope

iTrader: (5)

your note about this made me think.

you really have to think in terms of hrs or miles..

as you are very, very spoiled by chin!!!! most people on one track day get 1 to 1.5 hrs, chin tends to double that!

you bastard! how goes the lemons car?

beers

justjim

Yeah I am spoiled by Chin's track time, 1 day usually wipes me out.

The Lemons car is coming along. The devil is in the details as the saying goes, it's a bit like herding cats too. We got the roll cage in and after much weeping and gnashing of teeth I got the seat in and modified the bracket to get headroom for our Watusi driver. Just have to do some minor welding install the harness and take car of a few odds and ends. Sounds easy but I suspect its the odds and ends that will make or brake the car To keep up follow our facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/24-Hou...0/109724431683 .

tmak26b

I just put the Carbotechs on my car. They fit great as usual, easy to put on except the rear brakes are a pain to do on the RX-8. The pads seems to be 20% thicker than other pads I have gotten from them before. Interesting. I am hoping for 6-8 days (I do 100 miles per day).