RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Whoops, sorry guys, I accidentally perma deleted this thread while trying to move my post/recommendation from another thread to this one. Not on my game tonight. This was not intentional at all. I am asking an admin if it's possible to recover the posts.

Black2010R3

iTrader: (1)

My answer to this question is usually stock pads for the street and race pads for the track, but an RX8 on street tires can survive on lesser pads, especially if it's driven by a novice. That said, I'd be inclined to try Hawk's new "High Performance Street/Race" pads, that advertise a working temperature range of 100-1100 F, which goes higher than a number of their race pads and the lower limit is low enough that it should behave ok on the street. They're brand new so I haven't read any reviews yet, but they'd be something worth trying.

High Performance Street Race | Hawk Performance

Steve Dallas

I don't want to put in the effort to retype the OP, so here is a really short version of it.

Application is about 6 track days per year. One (Motorsport Ranch) is not too hard on brakes. The other (Eagle's Canyon) is brutal on brakes. Other than that, I drive the car some weekends and to work and back occasionally when the weather is nice. Otherwise, it spends a lot of time in the garage.

My main requirement in new brakes is heat management. I have plenty of stopping power on DOT tires, and want the bite to work in harmony with the ABS for intuitive threshold braking. But, I really need to solve the heat problem. Hawk HP Plus pads last about 2 track days at Eagles Canyon before crumbling, so I need pads with higher heat capacity, but do not want to graduate to true track pads just yet if I can help it.

My original approach had been OEM rotors with Hawk HP Plus pads. I tried to use this combination for every application, but I could not stand the school bus squeal on the street. (I clean, inspect, and grease my brakes after every track day.) So, I started switching back and forth between OEM and Hawk pads. That has not worked out, as the pads wear the rotors differently, and the friction surfaces are now uneven.

At this point, I need to either have the rotors turned or replace them. I obviously also need new pads and other hardware.

Questions:

1. Is there a rotor on the market short of 2 piece that truly has better cooling capacity than OEM?
2. Is there a pad that is a little better than OEM on the track and still civilized enough for the street assuming proper maintenance of the system?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

#2: Frankly, no.

The civility you want on the street is why you are having the problems on the track that you have. If you want a pad that will hold up on the track that you can also drive on the street, then it's going to be squealing like crazy on the street. The ONLY time you will find people that disagree with this is when you find people that aren't fast on the track

I personally hate Hawk pads for performance driving, even spirited street driving they just don't respond the way I want. I switched to Carbotech pads, and love them. The initial bite is great, the feel is consistent across the temp range, and they perform equally across the whole pad's lifespan. Far better than anything I have felt from Hawk.

My MSM is currently on XP12 (250F-1875F) front and XP10 (250F-1450F) rear after hitting fade on the XP10/8 combo on the track at ~202whp. After the switch I wasn't hitting fade at all at ~220whp with XP12/10 combo.

And I DD with those pads on still.
- They do squeal, but it is not a piercing painful squeal, and for me it is livable. You may not agree.
- they dust like crazy, but the dust washes off easy as long as you don't let it sit. The dust is easier to remove than any other brake dust i've encountered.
- if used a lot on the street when cold, they do eat up rotors relatively quickly, faster than you will use up the pads, so rotors should be considered more of a wear item than otherwise
- You really can't use a non-carbotech pad on rotors that have been bedded in with a carbotech pad. I thought it was just marketing or upselling, but after the first track even with the carbotechs, I swapped back to OEM pads and was shocked at how much braking force was lost, like dangerous levels of lack of braking force. I turned around and put the track pads back on since i didn't have a set of rotors available.

So basically, my recommendation for the track is Carbotech pads, and if you don't like the squealing or dusting, get a 2nd set of rotors to use OEM pads on the street. It won't be any more expensive in the long run, since you will change pads/rotors at ~half the rate, and changing rotors is only 2 more bolts per corner than changing pads.



As far as #1, I don't believe there is, but I am not 100% sure on that. I don't know of any 1-piece rotor that is worth the cost over a basic vented OEM rotor. It's just a slab of iron that soaks heat.

Steve Dallas

I have been looking at Carbotech pads. I was thinking of starting with the XP8 set. I have also been looking at Hawk's new 5.0 Track/Street pads that have a temp rating of 1200. Then there is EBC Yellowstuff. Hmmm... I guess there isn't much to do but pick one and try it.

As far as rotors go, I am very skeptical that any 1 piece is going to be much of an improvement over OEM. They all claim better cooling, but there is no evidence to back that up.

Stoptech claims their vane design is superior to straight vanes. Is it really?

EBC makes the same claim.

Then, of course, there is Hawk and all the others sporting their cooler running rotors. Color me skeptical.

If there is no other 1 piece rotor that is proven to run cooler than OEM, I'll just try to have mine turned. Or maybe I'll take your advice and have mine turned for the OEM pads (new set required) and buy a set of new rotors for the track.

Sure wish there was an easy answer here. I just want to get on with it and focus on the nut behind the wheel.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, the "easy" answer, in my opinion, is just 2 sets of brakes, each one set up for their environment.

Every single time I've tried to have a dual-purpose solution to something car related, I find that it will work good at one of them, and poorly at the other.

Black2010R3

iTrader: (1)

I use Hawk DTC-60's all around (with cheap blank rotors) on track and am very happy with them and any reviews say that they're much improved over Hawk's earlier offerings.

If something like an HP+ isn't cutting it, chances are you need to swap brakes before and after.Yes it's a bit of a pain, but you should be in there inspecting the brakes anyway and it makes street use that much nicer with low dust, low noise pads.

Adding ducting can help, but only to a point and the ducts will likely rub at full lock, making it a bit of a pain on the street as well.

Oh, on the Yellowstuffs, I'd avoid them. I know a guy who tried them on an R32 GTR on track and when driven hard, the pads would fade badly.

Loki

iTrader: (1)

This ^^. Yellowstuffs don't last very long either.
I think I responded to the original post, but short version: I ran DTC60s on the track and on the street (not supposed to do that, but whatever) and they actually squealed less than HP+s. The only thing is you need to rebed them if you drive on the street for a while because the transfer layer rubs off with cold friction. HP+s are compromise pads in all areas. I don't know that XP8s will give you good performance, they're more comparable to HPS's AFAIK.

Black2010R3

iTrader: (1)

Yes, the DTC-60's work pretty well on the street for a race pad and I'd agree on less squeal than HP+ or the Porterfield R4 I ran on my old RX7.

jasonrxeight

I recently put HAWK HPS pads on my R3. They were TERRIBLE. Faded like crazy on the track. Spongy pedal feel. Not grabby at all.
My stock pads are simply great on the track. Just a little noisy under light braking.

Steve Dallas

^ I too was impressed with my stock pads on the track at MSR. There is still a lot of material left on them, but they are now worn unevenly and can't be used again without further exacerbating the rotor problem. I will look up the Sumitomo part number and see if I can buy them again inexpensively and continue to use them as street pads.

I put the Hawk pads on when I looked up EC on Google Maps and discovered it is essentially several drag strips followed by U turns. Hawk HP Plus did not turn out to be enough for that either. It's a cool track, though, and I like running it twice a year.

On the Yellowstuff pads, this is the first I have heard of people not liking them. The scuttlebutt around the tracks I frequent is very positive. The heavy car guys really seem to like them with this caveat: take the time to break them in according to instructions. I am ever so slightly dismayed by what I am reading here, because I found a set of EBC rotors with Yellowstuff pads for $500 shipped after using some coupon codes. That's almost like buying rotors and getting pads free. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to try them and report back?

Black2010R3

iTrader: (1)

I once saw a guy go through something like 4-5 sets of stock replacement type pads in a weekend at the track and I've seen a number of others have to replace stock type pads partway through a track day. This isn't with highly exotic cars either, just normal sedan type stuff.

Due to the increased rate of wear on stock like pads compared to race pads, you're probably not saving any money anyway. Besides, when I'm approaching a corner at over 100mph, I'd rather not have ANY doubt in my mind about whether or not my brakes are up to the task.

Just get proper racing pads for the track. Yes it's more work, but they'll allow you to go faster with more confidence and are much less likely to ruin your day.

As for the yellowstuff, they may be ok on an RX8, as it's less powerful, probably lighter and has bigger brakes than that GTR. I'm just relaying what I know about them.

Steve Dallas

We were not seriously suggesting using OEM pads on the track for any amount of time. We were simply musing that they performed much better than expected, and appear to be a quality product generally.

AllBlack2

On the Yellowstuffs, I find they work quite well on the street and for autocross, but they definitely fade after a couple aggressive laps on a fast track. I only do a few lapping days a year, and as long as I space my hot laps out throughout the session the fade is manageable. If you're serious about getting the fastest laps possible or if you do a lot of days at Eagles Canyon like stvnscott mentioned, get dedicated street and track pads. A track like that is too hard on brakes to expect a streetable pad to hold up.

jasonrxeight

Put my factory pads back on and immediately, my rotors are turning shiny and my braking is back to where it was. All the HPS's did was greasing all over my rotors. There was very poor braking and 1000 miles after I could still see machine marks left by the turning.
I would AVOID HPS pads. They are not just worse, they are DANGEROUS!

Loki

iTrader: (1)

What pads did you have on before the HPS? Maybe some weird transfer layer incompatibility. Although you said you had them turned..

I'm just surprised, have been running HPSs as my dailies forever, they work great (for daily duty).

jasonrxeight

I had factory pads before. yes I had them turned before I put on the new pads.

Steve Dallas

^ Did you bed those pads in properly according to Hawk's instructions? I don't have any experience with those pads and am just curious. Although I have heard they don't have much initial bite.

I generally liked the HP Plus pads except for the noise. I can live with dusty brakes, but HP Plus pads howl like a school bus on the street. The bite characteristics are good for casual track use and work well with ABS for threshold braking. Of course, there is the problem of cooking them at Eagles Canyon.

jasonrxeight

Yes, I did. I bed in according to the manual. Like I said, unless I got fake pads (bought from racing beat), these pads don't bite into the metal at all. For over 1000 miles, the rotors didnt get worn down at all.

Steve Dallas

Here is where I stand.

I went ahead and ordered the EBC kit with Yellowstuff pads for $500. I need new rotors anyway, and I can try the "free" pads for one season to see how they hold up. I found out they repaved part of Eagles Canyon with poor results, so I don't plan to go back until they fix it anyway. Instead, I will focus on MSR Cresson, MSR Angleton, and try to get a session in at COTA next season.

I also ordered a new set of OEM pads, shims, and hardware. When those parts come in, I will have my OEM rotors turned and set aside for them.

Two complete sets of brakes it is.

jasonn

I'm currently on Porterfield R4 for track and drive the car minimally on the street

TANKERG

The HP+s are a whisper compared to the DTC60s They will get the attention of a slower car

They have a much better life too.

Black2010R3

iTrader: (1)

I've run both HP+ and DTC-60's on the RX8 and I wouldn't call the DTC's any louder than the HP+, but then again, I only drove them to and from the track more or less, but that's still a ~3 hour drive. They are however a much better track pad, more bite, more heat tolerance, great characteristics all around. I also used to use Porterfield R4 on my FC and my dad used them on his Turbo Miata and recently switched to DTC-60's. We were both much happier with the Hawk's compared to the Porterfields.

Check out Grassroots Motorsport's track pad test from a couple years ago for some data and insight into various track pads if you're interested.

Arca_ex

iTrader: (10)

You will outgrow HP+'s fast. They can't handle real track abuse, you'll notice this as soon as you start becoming a better driver and get some good tires on the car.

You can either pick a pad that will be awesome on the track and not friendly on the street, or you can pick a compromise pad that will suck at both. Have two sets of pads and rotors, switch them out for track days. After you do this a couple times you will get faster at swapping them out and it won't be that big of a deal.

I personally like HT-10's. DTC-60 would be my second choice.