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If you're really committed to the idea of one set of brakes for all uses, ducting will help allow you to use more streetable pads, but doing the rears will be a bit more of a challenge and front ducts often rub at near full steering lock on many cars. The other thing you could do is get a big brake kit, which again should lower temperatures on track and allow you to use a less aggressive brake setup. Mazdatrix offers a 13" rear big rotor kit that works with stock calipers for instance, allowing you to keep the parking brake, then pair that with your choice of front kit, where the bigger and thicker the rotor, the cooler it should run.
The other common thing people do is to have 2 cars, one dedicated for track use and one for daily driving.
Or just suck it up and change brakes. Investing in tools and equipment to make the job faster and easier will help it not seem like such a big deal. I think the biggest thing to help in that aspect is getting street and track pads that can work on the same rotor, as that will make the whole job that much faster and easier and you could even do it at the track when changing tires.
So back on topic - who has been using the HPS 5.0's and has any feedback?
I just bought a set of new rotors and the HPS 5.0's to go with them, as well as a full flush on stainless steel brake lines. I'll be bedding them in later tonight and will ofter my own update on them coming from Hawk HP+ pads(that were howling at the moon under 15mph) on tired rotors.
Going back off topic for a sec. I had another track day last Saturday and ended up on my 225 RE11s again due to morning rain. My Street/Race/DTC-30 pads again proved to be too much for summer tires all day--even after it dried up and we saw a high of 82F in the afternoon. Things got better as the day wore on, but I never stopped thinking about braking and was never confident flying into certain corners. I usually finish near the top of the field, but only managed the middle of the pack because of lack of confidence in the brakes and the fact that I finished off that set of tires that day. These pads still may prove useful when running grippier tires. Hopefully I can try that combination next month. As for as noise is concerned, they are still not as loud as HP+, but they are no longer polite enough for the street.
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 04-22-2015 at 07:24 AM.
When I first hit the track, I noticed a different pitch to the tire squeal in those RE11s. I didn't think much of it, because of the wet, cold conditions. But the difference more or less persisted all day, and I was never able to build up to my usual confidence. My lap times were not very good, and I am very quick to blame myself for any failures, so I didn't really think to blame the equipment. Until last night.
Last night, I set about servicing the brakes and inspecting the tires. I found the tires to be rock hard--even though they all had a few thirty-seconds of tread above the wear bars. One tire looked to have rolled a bit, and when I brushed my hand across its tread, I was stung by needles. The tires were all badly heat-soaked, and that one was trashed with the beginnings of a separating belt. I looked at my records and was stunned to find they had 14 track days and 12 autoX events on them. Ouch!
So, today I had a new set of 245/40/18 Potenza RE71Rs mounted on those rims. Weather will dictate whether I break these in or finally get to try my NT01s with these pads next month, but please do factor the age and wear of my RE11s into all of my comments in this thread. I was running old tires in every test.
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 05-15-2015 at 07:44 PM.
Once you go to R's, you'll never want to go back, but you'll also probably need true race pads and maybe higher temp fluid. It's more work to swap tires at the track, but it's worth it. I just got back from a weekend at Spokane Raceway on my now 6 day old 255/40/17 NT-01's and had a blast, doing a 1:41.06 on my best lap. I figure they'll be good for at least one more weekend, but that's with 6-7 20 minute session a day.
A friend was using those Street/Race pads on her 08 Impreza with 2 drivers (3 run groups total) and had no problems at all on all season tires, whereas previously with only 1 driver she needed new pads partway through the second day. They ran these largely based on this thread, so thank you.
My DTC-60's with Wilwood EXP600 plus fluid and no front dust shields got me consistent braking all weekend long with no fade. Previously I'd gotten a soft pedal using 550 degree Ford DOT 3 fluid with the dust shields in place. The pads were silent on track and only squealed very lightly on the roads a few times when coming to a full stop, but not every time. They have good cold bite and feel absolutely normal to drive on, so I'd definitely recommend them for a track pad that is driven to and from the track.
I am going to check out SCCA's new Track Night in America Tuesday night, and am planning to run my new RE71Rs due to light rain in the forecast. I'll report back on how well the Street/Race/DTC30 pads hold up with newer, grippier rubber. Hopefully it will rain in the morning and be warm and dry in the afternoon, but you never know around here.
And... Hawk has agreed to send me a set of HPS 5.0 pads to replace a set of Performance Ceramics that didn't work out for me [excellent customer service from an excellent vendor!]. So, once I am ready to return the car to street duty, I will be able to post an actual review of those pads mated to a set of recently turned Mazda rotors. That may turn out to be enough penance to bring this thread back on track [pun intended, yuk, yuk, yuk].
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 05-08-2015 at 08:09 PM.
It rained. The track was so slick, it was like driving on ice. That gave me an opportunity to learn a lot about car control, but not to test the brakes. By session 3, the rain had stopped, and the track had dried to some degree, but I was driving at only about 65%. The brakes were fine with Potenza RE-71R tires from what I could tell, but you don't really know until you are driving at 90% or more. Anecdotally, I would say moving from heat soaked RE-11s to fresh RE-71s is a much better match to these brake pads [DUH!]. Still mostly like them and am looking forward to more testing. As far as noise goes, they are now almost as bad as a well-broken-in set of HP+ both at the track and on the street. It quiets down for a little while with burnishing and new grease, but comes back in a day or two. You can hear them squeal in this video:
Highlights
1:40 I almost spin after hitting a puddle at too steep an angle with too much speed.
2:47 You can see how deep the water is in one of the 3 rivers. It was about 1.5" deep there.
4:35 Red Boss 302 loses it in the river (watch the left side of the screen). I decided to give him lots of room, because he was all over the place, and I'm glad I did.
11:55 I catch a Celica and accidentally get too close just as he spins in front of me. I thought I had slowed down enough. Oops.
My next track days are May 30, June 9, and June 20. After that, the car and I go into maintenance mode until September. It is way too hot in Texas to be out there in July and August.
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 05-21-2015 at 10:05 PM.
Just want to let you guys know we opened a Hawk thread in the Vendor area of the forum. We have the the 5.0 pads in stock and ready to ship for anyone else looking to try out the new compound. All other pad models are available for member discount too.
Haha to be fair I think the Porsche was a real novice, it was my first time at PBIR, and there was no instructors available at TNiA, I'm sure there are a lot of things that I effed up....
So smooth.... and oh god... Elevation... Why don't we have that in Florida... It's beautiful....
I never realized I forgot to follow up with my impressions.
A bit about the car: Sumitomo HTR Z-III Tires(300 tw rating), Hawk HPS 5.0 brake pads all around, SS brake lines, Progress Technology Sway bars F+R, Bilstein(factory) 40th anniversary suspension - 60k~ miles on it)
It's now been a month with the new brakes and I'm liking them so far. The best way to describe them is "linear". Because of having used HP+s for most of the life of my RX8 driving, this is going to be a comparison review.
Noise: My primary reason for switching from the HP+was because they were just getting unbearably loud for city driving. Pulling up beside a car and having the screech bounce off and chafe my ear drums just had to go. I haven't heard a peep out of these pads since I bought them, except for a couple light squeals when bedding in. So these were definitely a win in that regard.
Bite: First impressions when bedding them in was somewhere along the lines of "WHERE ARE MY BRAKES?", but that is less a fault of these pads and more a character of the HP+ that I was used to. The HP+ pads have an initial bite much like getting shot backwards out of a cannon. The HPS 5.0's are very linear and predicable in pedal pressure, but require more effort. I was used to needing only 1-2 inches of pressure on my HP+s to max out my tires, but with the HPS 5.0's I'm using much more of the pedal. Because of this I'm also not making my wife sick in the car when it comes to slowing down or braking for red lights/traffic, etc.
Stopping power is good, definitely not the same as the HP+ and I would really have to get into the pedal to activate the ABS, these are a much better match for my Sumitomo HTR Z-III tires (@ 300 tw rating). All this extra pedal use over the HP+ has me really itching for a master cylinder brake brace.
I haven't used them yet in the rain - so I can't comment much on that(or my tires for that matter), but I was up in the mountains on some curvy roads and everything just felt really good, very linear and predicable. Heel/toe is easier simply because half an inch of too much pressure with the old HP+ was just overkill and didn't leave much room for error on the streets. I'll have to make a point of going out and getting into them in the rain the next time it pours here and I can report back after that with some updated information!
So guys! Piggybacking on this thread regarding Track Night. Here's a great opportunity for you.
I've got a coupon code that takes $25 dollars off of a SCCA's Track Night event. It'd be $125 for 60 minutes of track time ($100 if you are under 25 and is an SCCA member), vs. the usual $300 and upwards for an event.
Let me know if you are interested, and I'll hook you up. It works nationally, so just check out the dates, times and your nearest track, see what's available to you.
After tomorrow, my trial of the Street/Race pads will come to an end. I will have put 5 track days on them, where 2 of them were in the wet. That means these pads are probably good for 4 dry track days of ~150 miles each.
My next set of track pads to try will be made up of Carbotech XP10s in the front and XP8s in the rear. I am looking for a little less initial bite and more modulation.
Since I don't frequent the track during July and August due to the unbearable Texas heat, I will be installing my new Hawk Street 5.0 pads on a set of new rotors for a trial of those pads. I'll let you know what I think of them.
My first time out in the RX8 (far from my first time ever), I used HP+ with stock tires and they worked fine, but when I went to R's, I switched to Hawk DTC-60's and am really happy with them. They are great on track and actually quite civil on the street for the drive to and from the track. If you're having issues with a street friendly pad overheating and crumbling, sounds like you need to make the switch to real race pads.
I've got 6 days on them so far and they still have more life in them. 4 of those days were with only 3 run groups, so I got lots of laps in. I've only used Porterfield R4 and HP+ other than these, so I can't comment on how they compare to anything else.
I've got 6 days on them so far and they still have more life in them. 4 of those days were with only 3 run groups, so I got lots of laps in. I've only used Porterfield R4 and HP+ other than these, so I can't comment on how they compare to anything else.
were you finding the HP+ inadequate/fading with your set up so you switched to DTC-60s?
I used the HP+ only with street tires, when I got the R's, I went to the DTC's as a precautionary measure. I've still got the HP+ and bring them as backup, just in case.
HP+ have too much initial bite and not enough modulation IMHO. They are also loud as hell. I used them with street tires for a while, but quickly found myself looking for something better.
I've got a coupon code that takes $25 dollars off of a SCCA's Track Night event. It'd be $125 for 60 minutes of track time ($100 if you are under 25 and is an SCCA member), vs. the usual $300 and upwards for an event.
Let me know if you are interested, and I'll hook you up. It works nationally, so just check out the dates, times and your nearest track, see what's available to you.
I had my first track day with these pads yesterday. Things went pretty well. The temperature started out on the cold side at a balmy 29 degrees, so I ran my lowest temperature tires, which are Potenza RE11s, and are certainly not ideal for such a day.
During the first session, it took me about 4 miles to warm up the brakes. Once they were hot, initial bite was too much, as I went into ABS immediately in every corner and had to fight hard for any semblance of threshold braking. I'm sure the conditions account for all of this considering the cold summer tires and cold sealed asphalt.
As things warmed up outside, things got better. They started to behave something like HP+, but with more civil initial bite, better midrange torque characteristics, and better resistance to fade. The high temperature was 54 at about 3PM, and I was able to drive to about 80% of my normal capability during that session. That is where the problem arose, and it is the same problem I encountered with HP+. I began to feel fade about 12 minutes into the session. Here is where they are better than HP+: I was able to take 1 cool-down lap and re-engage. They lasted another 8 minutes before they started to fade again--just in time for another cool-down lap at the end of the session.
I went into the pits and shot the temps of my rotors, calipers, and pads. The readings were not bad at all at about 360F-ish all around, which is lower than I expected. Obviously, the pads saw temps far higher than 360.
The good news is the pads lasted the rest of the day with a little care, where HP+ probably would not have. The fact that a cold front blew in (mid 40s) which caused us all to go back to taking it a little bit easier probably did not hurt, but I still maintain these pads are a step forward for Hawk in the hybrid area.
The drive home was loud. While not as bad as HP+, the car was back to sounding like a school bus and turning heads. I actually had people rolling down their windows to helpfully tell me I need a brake job.
This morning, I cleaned and greased all appropriate brake parts and bled the fluid (DOT4) per my usual post track day regimen. Then I went for a drive to see how the noise level of these pads compares to HP+ and what I might have gained in torque due to bleeding the fluid. The bleeding made no difference, which means the fade I kept feeling was definitely the pads; this is really just confirmation of what I already knew since you cannot recover from boiled fluid. In terms of noise, they went back to about the same level of squeal that they had before tracking them. There is some squeal as the MPH approach zero, but it is manageable and not terribly annoying. Definitely quieter than HP+. I consider that a win.
I reached 3 conclusions as a result of this trial:
1. I have advanced far enough that I need true track pads and hybrids will not work for me long-term.
2. Hawk DTC-30 Street/Race pads offer definite improvement over HP+.
3. These pads are great candidates for serious AutoX use and novice to intermediate road course drivers.
Here is the amount of dust after 115 miles on the track and 138 miles there and back (it seems to blow off easily at high speeds):
[EDIT for clarification]
Let me clarify one thing. These pads did not fade badly. I backed off of them when I first started to feel fade to test them vs. the fluid. They could have very well held up the rest of the day going ***** to the walls. I intend to test that next month.
My experience with these pads has been somewhat similar to yours. I find that the initial bite is very aggressive and cause me to engage ABS in almost every corner during my first session on track. To avoid this, I had to make significant changes to the way that I applied brake pressure. I also had to relearn how to heel/toe as I was engaging ABS every time that I blipped the throttle. It took me about 10 tries to modify my technique to address this.
Overall, great stopping power, but not as progressive as other pads that I've tried (HPS, StopTech, OEM, HP+)
Here are some other observations in a nutshell:
1) I did not experience any fade in 3 sessions despite pretty high running temps (I took a temperature measuring of the caliper following a cool down lap and a 2 min jaunt in the track parking lot and got a reading of 600 F. Based on that, I think that it's safe to assume that I was probably approaching 1000 F during the session).
2) They dust like crazy. Both sides of the car were covered in brake dust. I'm talking doors, rear quarter panel, etc. Total mess...haven't seen anything like it before and that's after three sessions. In the grand scheme of things it's not a big deal and the dust is very simple to get off as long as you don't let it sit there too long after lapping days.
3) They are very hard on the rotors. I run HPS pads for daily driving and one day at the track with these pads has scored the rotors horribly (running Centric Cryo-treated plain). I'm pretty sure that I will need new ones in a few weeks.
4) I've bedded them in and drove for about 2 hours prior to my track session. They were initially quiet on Day 1. This all changed after the track session: lots of squeal on every stop. It doesn't bother me personally, but noteworthy as some may not like this for daily driving.
Overall, I'm lukewarm on these. They're better than OEMs on track, but come with significant downsides. My next experiment will be with the Carbotech XP10s or Porterfield R4s
Fun fact... These Hawk Performance Street/Race pads light up like Fourth of July... It also triggers ABS very easily...
Had my first Auto-X event with these, good enough for 2nd in STX.
Dust are pretty easy to wash away if you don't let it sit. Liking them so far!
I had the same thing happen yesterday with the Hawk Street Race pads! I did an autocross event and three different guys told me that there were sparks shooting out of my brakes.
04-15-2015, 09:13 AM
