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If you want to run track and not have street issues then you need two sets of rotors & pads to swap back & forth with. Otherwise there is no having your cake & eating it too ....
Sometimes the different pad deposit materials aren't compatible, then the rotor surfaces build up material that feels like warped rotors when the brakes are applied
The track pads are much harder on rotors too, so the profile faces between pad and rotor surfaces won't match up well either
Sometimes the different pad deposit materials aren't compatible, then the rotor surfaces build up material that feels like warped rotors when the brakes are applied
Ah ....this could be the very problem I'm having with my rotors ATM . I thought it was something to do with the grooves in the disc but your explanation fits the symptoms better .
Aside from skimming the discs .... is there anything i can do to remove the deposits ? Light sand and brakleen maybe ?
Changing rotors back and forth is something I am trying not to have to do. I know it is probably futile, and I know trying these pads was a long shot. But, I track my car 10-12 times per year, and changing rotors and pads adds about 1.5 hours to my prep time (which then has to be undone the next day).
In looking at the compound graph above, you can actually see my twisted logic in action. I liked Hawk Blues on one of my former cars. The only two negatives they had were that they took a while to warm up for street driving, and they were very hard on rotors. I liked the torque characteristics of HP+ (but not the initial bite) on the RX-8, but not their tendency to overheat and the extreme noise they produce. I don't want a lot more torque than either of those pads, because of where the RX-8's ABS threshold sits with the type of tires I am running. The DTC-30 (Street/Race) should be a nice compromise. They supposedly have better low temperature braking, better heat resistance, and lower noise, without overdoing it on the torque.
I am going to try these pads for as much of this season as possible. I may end up liking them. If not, I may try DTC-60s and just work very hard at developing a much lighter touch on the brake pedal and/or go back to rubber brake lines.
Brettus, as Team explained, different pad compounds leave different friction deposits on the rotors, which are often incompatible. You can remove them between pad changes with sandpaper on the rotors, but it is time consuming. You can sometimes remove them by just re-bedding in the pads after each change.
The bigger problem is that different pads wear the rotors in different ways. Swapping pads back and forth means the rotors and pads are never truly mated together, which leads to less torque and more heat in both driving scenarios.
The correct solution is two complete sets of brakes. I actually have two sets; I'm just too lazy to swap them 20 to 24 times per season. As he says, I am trying to have my cake and eat it too. To this point, I have been mostly failing. But these pads do show some promise.
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 03-13-2015 at 09:22 PM.
Maybe, but the differences in rotor wear negate any compound compatibility. Once each set has been on the car a couple of times, the rotor surfaces are worn unevenly to the point that maybe only a third of the pad is contacting the rotor.
What I am looking for is a pad with midrange torque for the track (which is all you want when running DOT tires), that is civil enough on the street to be able to live with it. This pad may actually fit the bill. All in all, they performed better than expected at the track, and they are quiet enough to live with on the street. If I had been running HP+ at the track Saturday, I probably would have cooked them to the point of death and had to quit. It has happened to me twice before with HP+.
Let me clarify one thing. These pads did not fade badly. I backed off of them when I first started to feel fade to test them vs. the fluid. They could have very well held up the rest of the day going ***** to the walls. I intend to test that next month.
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 03-10-2015 at 07:36 PM.
I'm surprised at how little info I can find on aftermarket brake pads. Axxis, Carbotech, etc., all I seem to find is Hawks, EBC, or stuff for aftermarket calipers.
Looking at that graph on the first page, it would seem the HP+ would be better on the track than the HPS, am I reading it wrong?
Carbotech will also take whatever old brake pads you have and create exact matching set of pads with the compound of your choice, if they don't already have a pad available with that plate to fit.
With Carbotech, the AX6 compound is not compatible with any of their other pads, but all of the other pads are compatible with each other. So a 1521 pad for the street can be used on the same rotors that have XP16s on them for the track.
Carbotech will also take whatever old brake pads you have and create exact matching set of pads with the compound of your choice, if they don't already have a pad available with that plate to fit.
With Carbotech, the AX6 compound is not compatible with any of their other pads, but all of the other pads are compatible with each other. So a 1521 pad for the street can be used on the same rotors that have XP16s on them for the track.
Which compounds have you used? AX6 sounds nice for a car that doesn't really see the track.
Maybe there is a street/track pad combo that is compatible ?
Your best bet is to stay to one brand and ask if they can recommend anything, or maybe they have something in their literature about compatible pads.
For driving to and from the track, I've found the Hawk DTC-60's to be pretty reasonable, but I still wouldn't daily drive on them. I only do a few days a year though, so changing pads and rotors before and after isn't such a big deal for me.
Which compounds have you used? AX6 sounds nice for a car that doesn't really see the track.
XP8-XP12s. I haven't used anything lower. AX6 or 1521 for street use should be pretty good. The 1521 is what they sell for fleet police cars.
AX6 is just the one-off on the compound in the transfer layer, so keep that in mind if you want to try something else from the brand. I'd start with 1521s personally, just because swapping up to XP8s wouldn't require a rotor change if you wanted something a bit more aggressive.
Looking at that graph on the first page, it would seem the HP+ would be better on the track than the HPS, am I reading it wrong?
You are correct. However, this thread started to be about the new Street 5.0 pads and morphed into being about the new Street/Race (DTC-30) pads. The new pads are supposed to kill some of the ills of the older compounds.
There are a lot of good pads on the market for cars that do not see the track. But, honestly, the OEM pads are pretty damn good, and I have even tracked them on two occasions about a year apart with acceptable results, considering.
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 03-13-2015 at 09:18 PM.
If you want to run track and not have street issues then you need two sets of rotors & pads to swap back & forth with. Otherwise there is no having your cake & eating it too ....
Like most mods, if you want outright max performance you are going to have to give up comfort. Brake dust, noise, not working well when cold, ETC.
Just need to see what temp ranges you fall into at the track and get the according pad, while having a cheap street set. Only way to really do it. You can try adding more brake cooling as well.
I use HP+ since I am heavy auto X use and Socal local tracks (like stated above aren't crazy high in brake load) so this pad works for my combination of driving.
^ One of the questions I am trying to answer is whether that dogma is still true in light of Hawk's new offerings.
After driving on them for a few months now, and with one track day under my belt, I am of the opinion that the DTC-30 Street/Race pads offer substantial improvement over past experiences with hybrid pads. They might just be the compromise pad many of us have been looking for.
1> Dust. I don't really care about dust, but these pads are fairly low dust after initial break-in and bed-in.
2> Noise. They are quieter than HP+, which sounded like a fog horn had an alien love child with a school bus. I would call the noise level similar to Hawk Blues. That means the noise is present, but manageable. It mostly shows up under 10mph, and is more of a squeal and less of a howl. With the stereo playing at a moderate level, I don't notice it. I can certainly live with it.
3> Torque. Cold torque is adequate for street use with no safety concerns. Hot torque is in the middle range and works well with DOT tires on the track with some behavior modification. Initial bite is workable with threshold braking.
4> Rotor wear. These pads seem to wear the rotors less than Hawk Blues, but more than HP+. This is subjective observation only. I have not taken any objective measurements.
That is what I know so far. I have another track day this Saturday and will add to my review. Last time, the weather was fairly cold (29 to 50 degrees F), and I ran on Potenza RE-11s. This weekend, temps are supposed be be between 50 and 68 degrees F, and I am running on Nitto NT-01s.
I'll try to get some video of the sound on the street before I hit the track.
Bottom line. I am liking these pads for my purposes so far. We may finally have a hybrid winner.
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 04-05-2015 at 09:17 AM.
Time for an update after another track day last Saturday.
One change from my setup as described above. I ended up running on my 225 RE-11s again, as the weather forecast fell to a low of 40 and a high of 60 with potential light rain in the forecast. The 245 NT01s would be hockey pucks under those conditions, so I went with the Potenzas again.
Speaking of my setup, let me describe it to put things into context. I am running on StopTech Sport slotted rotors, StopTech stainless lines, ATE Typ 200 DOT 4 fluid, Permatex Extreme ceramic brake grease, and Hawk Street/Race DTC-30 pads with the included shims. Calipers and brake hardware are OEM. Pin lubricant is NAPA Sil-Glyde.
The track in question is short and technical with a lot of corners and elevation changes. Max speed is about 100MPH. The surface is sealed old asphalt, which makes it relatively slick. It is somewhat harder on brakes than the last track I was on with these pads, as the straights are not long enough to accomplish much cooling.
The short story is these pads performed just fine at the track after some adjustment of the nut behind the wheel.
Next is the longer review.
The original weather forecast was spot-on, so I changed tires for nothing. The track was damp when I arrived at 7:15, but was mostly dry by the time the first intermediate session started at 8:50, and it did not rain again.
I spent the morning re-familiarizing myself with the track with an instructor on-board. To say these pads and tires and weather conditions made for a challenging experience would be a gross understatement. Initial bite sent me into ABS immediately pretty much all the time. Midrange torque was difficult to control--even as I consciously backed out of pedal trying to brake under the threshold. Heel-toe was difficult since stabbing the throttle meant applying too much pressure on the brake. But, that all goes with the territory. It was cold and a little bit damp and this track has a slicker surface. I thought it was a good learning experience.
The afternoon sessions were quite different. By then, things had warmed considerably, my tires had found their stride, the driver had shed some rustiness and gained some adjustment, and the car and I were off to the "races". Initial bite was good. It was still just a hair more than I would like, but I can get used to it. I had it pretty much mastered by the end of the day. Midrange torque was a little much for 225 RE-11s under cooler conditions, but I think it will be perfect next month when things are warmer and/or when I am running on wider, grippier tires. Noise increased steadily throughout the day as I squeezed out and burned up the Permatex grease. Fade was virtually non-existent. I had no problems with fade all day, even as I was watching closely for it. This track's proximity to a highway allowed my to jump off the track and cruise 2 miles away and 2 miles back at 75mph to cool things down, which surely helped.
One question yet to be answered is if they will quiet down again when I have a chance to clean and re-grease them, which should happen sometime this week. Dust was fine. It doesn't seem to be terribly sticky like some other compounds, but as I said before, I don't care much about dust. Rotor wear was pretty considerable upon visual inspection, but that will be the case with pretty much any pad that is suitable for track use.
My latest conclusions are similar to my last conclusions, assuming these pads will quiet down again after having been serviced. I like them. I wish they had just a little less initial bite and a little less midrange torque when used with extreme performance summer tires in under 70 degree weather, but I think they will come into their own when things warm up and/or I put on my wider tires with grippier compounds.
My next track day is in 2 weeks. I will service my brakes and report on the street suitability, then track them for a 3rd time and report on the track suitability again.
So far, I still believe they are much more workable than any other hybrid pad I have first or second hand experience with and could be a very good solution to that problem. After 2 months on the street and 2 track days, I still plan to run them all season for continued testing.
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 04-09-2015 at 08:43 PM.
My problem with these brakes are that they tick off the ABS too easily. Even at Auto-X last time I got sent to ABS all over the place. Let's see how it performs at Daytona this weekend...
My problem with these brakes are that they tick off the ABS too easily. Even at Auto-X last time I got sent to ABS all over the place. Let's see how it performs at Daytona this weekend...
I wonder if your ABS issue is more related to what type of tires you have. What do you have? If you have greater braking performance with tires that don't match you'll be locking the wheels up more causing ABS to step in. Even if you have good tires, it could just take a little bit to learn the new threshold of braking.
We have tons of pad options at prices way better than tirerack.com Use the "RX8" promo code.
My problem with these brakes are that they tick off the ABS too easily. Even at Auto-X last time I got sent to ABS all over the place. Let's see how it performs at Daytona this weekend...
Technically, any pad would trip ABS at the same torque rate being applied to the rotors, all else (tires, pavement, temps, etc...) being equal. So the part that changes would be the torque profile of the pad.
In my experience, the Hawk pads don't make it easy on the driver to tell where to put the pedal modulation for a desired application of torque. Torque vs pedal pressure doesn't feel linear, regardless of whether or not it actually is.
It's the primary reason I prefer Carbotechs. The feel and feedback through the pedal is excellent.
The difference between the two is the difference in cornering between a Corvette and an RX-8. Absolute grip may be comparable (or not depending on setup), but one feels a hell of a lot easier to place, to finesse, and to manage.
I wonder if your ABS issue is more related to what type of tires you have. What do you have? If you have greater braking performance with tires that don't match you'll be locking the wheels up more causing ABS to step in. Even if you have good tires, it could just take a little bit to learn the new threshold of braking.
We have tons of pad options at prices way better than tirerack.com Use the "RX8" promo code.
Yeah. As I have written in my reviews, the initial bite and midrange torque take some driver adjustment when running summer tires. I am hoping I will get used to the feel after another session or two on the track to the point that it becomes second nature. More than that, I am hoping the weather holds next weekend, so I can run on my 245 NT01s to get a feel for that combination.
Carbotech pads get rave reviews everywhere, but the cost of entry has kept me away so far. Something has to give in the price of this hobby, and at this point, I would rather sacrifice in the area of brake pads rather than tires. However, if RIWWP's analogy is correct, I should probably just suck it up next season and make the jump. [Of course, none of this addresses my reluctance to swap rotors back and forth due to lack of dedication and plain laziness.]
I don't know how much you can tell from this, but here is a video of session 5 out of 6 from last weekend. You can hear my tires complaining under braking, and you can hear the brake squeal start to come on (not that it matters on the track) after the first couple of warmup laps. This is the session in which I put up the fastest times of the group for the day. Nothing much dramatic happens in the video, but I do chase down a very skilled driver and his built M3 and eventually pass him. That is when the fastest laps happened.
I watched the first few minutes, and I think I could detect you making significant adjustments to the brake application mid-braking.
It's not an RX-8, but this is my MSM's latest video, just one lap of WGI. I'm braking for turn 1, the Bus Stop, turns 6, 7, 8. Turn 9 was interferred with. Just a brief lift for 10, and a bigger lift for 11. Flat through 2 and 3, neutral through 5.
If you are interested, I can upload a video of my last session with an instructor riding along for pointers, where I was braking later, messing up more downshifts because of that, and also has more traffic to deal with.
LOL. You probably should have watched the last few minutes if you wanted to see any examples of halfway decent driving.
You were seeing it correctly. I was modulating brake pressure throughout each braking zone trying to keep the torque under the ABS threshold. Some noise from summer tires is normal, of course, but you can hear the chirp, chirp, chirp sound of the ABS activating much more than I wanted it to.
I envy you guys that live near the cool tracks. We do have COTA down in Austin, but it is very difficult to get time on that track. TWS is supposedly closing soon, which is a crying shame. I have only had the opportunity to drive it once. Otherwise, we have some small regional tracks available like the one above.
Update as to the street-ability of the Street/Race (DTC-30) pads. After cleaning and greasing them again (~500 street miles and ~320 track miles to date), they have become too loud to tolerate for regular street driving in my opinion. The slight squeal under 10mph has graduated to a howl when moderate pressure is applied at any speed under 50mph. The noise can be changed by modulating the pressure on the pedal, but can no longer be completely eliminated. They are still not as loud as HP+ became for me, but I can see them getting there. The elusive hybrid pad continues to elude.
Additionally, I found they were somewhat glazed after the last track day, so I sanded them with 80 grit paper until the glaze was gone. Two of the rear (one inside and one outside from each rotor) pads have a small amount of material missing from near the centers, which appears to be heat or debris crumble. They are OK for my next track day this Saturday, but I will need to watch them closely.
I will update again after my next track day on Saturday.
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 04-12-2015 at 07:41 PM.
03-10-2015, 02:43 AM
