We've seen this before, Starts right up, runs, dies after 5-10 minutes, won't start..
10-26-2015, 09:49 AM
#26
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Pretty much.
Will probably just stick with the old faithful GM coils that work as trusty as a bacon double cheeseburger.
It's very apparent nobody here has any first hand experience, nor do they know how to diagnose a weak coil but they want to chime in so they can be internet-car-building-expert. I was unsuccessfully attempting to gather data points to decide if the oem coils were even worth trying, but in order to gather data points you first must have a community that understands the basic data, which clearly isn't something available with the users who have chosen to participate in this thread. /rant
Will probably just stick with the old faithful GM coils that work as trusty as a bacon double cheeseburger.
It's very apparent nobody here has any first hand experience, nor do they know how to diagnose a weak coil but they want to chime in so they can be internet-car-building-expert. I was unsuccessfully attempting to gather data points to decide if the oem coils were even worth trying, but in order to gather data points you first must have a community that understands the basic data, which clearly isn't something available with the users who have chosen to participate in this thread. /rant
10-26-2015, 10:31 AM
#28
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Google also has great information like:
- How 9/11 was an inside job
- How AIDS isn't actually real
- We didn't land on the moon
- Tupac is still alive
- Obama doesn't have a birth certificate
- Obama is a Muslim terrorist for the New World Order
Which is why, since I know the internet is full of stupidity, I mistakenly, launched a feeble attempt on RX8Club to gather data from people who actually had experience working on RX-8's since all the rotor folks I know have swapped their RX-8's back to the older style 13'b and disposed of the Renesis and it's electronics. After reading this threads, and ones like this clearly I simply expected too much of the typical user on this site. I'm used to posting on places where folks like myself have courtesy, and make the choice to NOT to post unless they have actual first hand experience.
Great helpful post that clearly answered what the OP was asking for though!
Just so we're 100% clear, RX8 Soldier, what experience do you have with coil failure, and what coils are you running now? And what shop do you send your car to when it breaks since clearly you don't work on it at all...lol.
- How 9/11 was an inside job
- How AIDS isn't actually real
- We didn't land on the moon
- Tupac is still alive
- Obama doesn't have a birth certificate
- Obama is a Muslim terrorist for the New World Order
Which is why, since I know the internet is full of stupidity, I mistakenly, launched a feeble attempt on RX8Club to gather data from people who actually had experience working on RX-8's since all the rotor folks I know have swapped their RX-8's back to the older style 13'b and disposed of the Renesis and it's electronics. After reading this threads, and ones like this clearly I simply expected too much of the typical user on this site. I'm used to posting on places where folks like myself have courtesy, and make the choice to NOT to post unless they have actual first hand experience.
Great helpful post that clearly answered what the OP was asking for though!
Just so we're 100% clear, RX8 Soldier, what experience do you have with coil failure, and what coils are you running now? And what shop do you send your car to when it breaks since clearly you don't work on it at all...lol.
10-26-2015, 10:55 AM
#31
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mike...
If you have failing coils, you will have a weak spark until the coils fail far enough that it will shift to no-spark. If you don't even get an attempt at a spark, then the problem isn't the coils, it's upstream, either electrical circuit or the ECU simply isn't commanding them to spark (like an e-shaft sensor problem).
When the stock coils start failing, they will continue to spark, but it will be weaker and weaker and weaker. While it's going weaker, the incomplete combustions will also start fouling the plugs faster and faster, accelerating the rate of failure because the coils will continue having a harder time firing through a more fouled plug. The more the plug fouls then, the faster the coils will die as the ignitor will keep running too hot (ALL coils are subject to this, even LS coils, you can burn out an LS coil in a couple of minutes if it can't ever release it's charge).
What people are failing to understand when they read your posts is "what are you trying to actually ask?" Because the literal question you are asking doesn't make any sense. People with healthy ignition systems don't have weak spark or no-spark. People without healthy ignition systems just replace the stuff and get it healthy. Ignition failure is so insanely common in the RX-8 that replacing your ignition parts is a "every 20,000 mile" schedule, or even faster. We used to say every 30k, but dyno testing a stock RX-8 with original factory ignition at 30,000 miles, then replacing it brand new resulted in a 28whp increase. No misfires, but already down 14% power just from the age of the ignition. So it should be earlier than that. Since virtually everyone's RX-8 is older than 20,000 miles, every single person responding to the thread has dealt with coil failure. It's a maintenance thing.
So your question to us is essentially: "Are people dealing with old oil or dirty oil?"
Who cares? If it's old or dirty ... CHANGE IT!
People are then wondering if you are you trying to diagnose a failing coil? Do you think that this is a rare problem? Do you think that this shouldn't happen? Do you know you have failing ignition and are trying to find a different solution other than buying $192 in coils, plugs, and wires? Are you just trying to get a poll of who has failing ignition and hasn't replaced it yet?
And just for clarity, your failed engine coolant seal leaking coolant into the housings will also be fouling the plugs all on it's own, also making your coils struggle. So you have quite a list of reasons for not only engine failure, but imminent or pending ignition failure.
You also already know the solution to both.
What are you actually looking for from us?
Are you guys having weak spark or no spark?
When the stock coils start failing, they will continue to spark, but it will be weaker and weaker and weaker. While it's going weaker, the incomplete combustions will also start fouling the plugs faster and faster, accelerating the rate of failure because the coils will continue having a harder time firing through a more fouled plug. The more the plug fouls then, the faster the coils will die as the ignitor will keep running too hot (ALL coils are subject to this, even LS coils, you can burn out an LS coil in a couple of minutes if it can't ever release it's charge).
What people are failing to understand when they read your posts is "what are you trying to actually ask?" Because the literal question you are asking doesn't make any sense. People with healthy ignition systems don't have weak spark or no-spark. People without healthy ignition systems just replace the stuff and get it healthy. Ignition failure is so insanely common in the RX-8 that replacing your ignition parts is a "every 20,000 mile" schedule, or even faster. We used to say every 30k, but dyno testing a stock RX-8 with original factory ignition at 30,000 miles, then replacing it brand new resulted in a 28whp increase. No misfires, but already down 14% power just from the age of the ignition. So it should be earlier than that. Since virtually everyone's RX-8 is older than 20,000 miles, every single person responding to the thread has dealt with coil failure. It's a maintenance thing.
So your question to us is essentially: "Are people dealing with old oil or dirty oil?"
Who cares? If it's old or dirty ... CHANGE IT!
People are then wondering if you are you trying to diagnose a failing coil? Do you think that this is a rare problem? Do you think that this shouldn't happen? Do you know you have failing ignition and are trying to find a different solution other than buying $192 in coils, plugs, and wires? Are you just trying to get a poll of who has failing ignition and hasn't replaced it yet?
And just for clarity, your failed engine coolant seal leaking coolant into the housings will also be fouling the plugs all on it's own, also making your coils struggle. So you have quite a list of reasons for not only engine failure, but imminent or pending ignition failure.
You also already know the solution to both.
What are you actually looking for from us?
10-26-2015, 11:07 AM
#32
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Trying to figure out on the Renesis how weak the coils can fire and the engine still start so I can decide if it is worth the effort on a stock-ish Renesis to upgrade the coils, or just throw new factory style ones on.
Engine is already coming out of car and getting full rebuild, for a 24 Hours of Lemons car, which is completely irrelevant information to the ignition question, but keeps getting brought up Reliability is the only priority with the powertrain, but for sake of being within the ''budget'' OEM coils would work, but I'm trying to gather information to decide if the factory ignition system is actually crap, or it's just e-mongering creating a faux-problem that only exists on the internet.
I'm curious if these cars will still actually run on a weak coil, or if the engine doesn't' start only when it is completely dead, for purposes of failure prevention in an endurance race environment. I've got a box of LS coils at my shop and can easily convert, but would rather use the factory stuff if it's only a problem online, and not a problem in the real world.
I've messed with 13b stuff a lot, but not RX8/Renesis so was trying to see how real the ignition issues were, by having people with first hand information post, and not this "I own a keyboard and a computer, and I read this thing 2nd hand account you probably read too" or "This is 2015 and I haven't come to terms with the fact that I am mentally deficient because I can use Google"crap but apparently that was asking too much.
Engine is already coming out of car and getting full rebuild, for a 24 Hours of Lemons car, which is completely irrelevant information to the ignition question, but keeps getting brought up Reliability is the only priority with the powertrain, but for sake of being within the ''budget'' OEM coils would work, but I'm trying to gather information to decide if the factory ignition system is actually crap, or it's just e-mongering creating a faux-problem that only exists on the internet.
I'm curious if these cars will still actually run on a weak coil, or if the engine doesn't' start only when it is completely dead, for purposes of failure prevention in an endurance race environment. I've got a box of LS coils at my shop and can easily convert, but would rather use the factory stuff if it's only a problem online, and not a problem in the real world.
I've messed with 13b stuff a lot, but not RX8/Renesis so was trying to see how real the ignition issues were, by having people with first hand information post, and not this "I own a keyboard and a computer, and I read this thing 2nd hand account you probably read too" or "This is 2015 and I haven't come to terms with the fact that I am mentally deficient because I can use Google"crap but apparently that was asking too much.
10-26-2015, 11:16 AM
#34
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Lets try this.
aside from people who don't know how to work on stuff
What's the output you guys are normally seeing from the coils who actually have worked on an RX-8 outside of Forza Horizon?
aside from people who don't know how to work on stuff
What's the output you guys are normally seeing from the coils who actually have worked on an RX-8 outside of Forza Horizon?
10-26-2015, 11:16 AM
#35
Driving my unreliable rx8
Huh, I'm a bit confused a bunch of more experienced people try to help you since you didn't search. Then when someone shows you, albeit in a snotty way, what to search on this site you say that information is probably no good even though it's from the same site. But you know so much about these things and have to ask how to check spark plugs and coils. Heck any Autozone, Orileys, or Advanced auto parts can tell you how to do that. The only thing talked about more on this site than coils is oil.
Since you and all your buddy's are too lazy to do a little searching around so they just throw in rx7 engines. Wow that makes things easier. I wonder how they do that with no reaserch! I will say those are some cool engines that don't use coils.
Here you go. People mostly have weak spark. A lot of times coils work well until they get loaded and hot then start having problems. That's why you use a specific tester that has a huge spark gap and causes the coil to heat up. Most people are too lazy/cheap to buy the 20 dollar tester and swap out a set of coils. Plenty of people use stock coils and have no problems with them at all. A reasonable number of people upgrade to GM d585 coils and preach about how good they are because it made their engine run well. That is probably just because they neglected the previous system for so long that coils from a moped would improve the car. But there is tons of talk about the internals of the gm coils being different and needing specific coils. I personally think the difference is between elchepo ebay coils and good coils. I haven't had a problem with true AC delco d585 coils I bought. But I've always had the dwell bumped to the max on them. I had a boost leak a few days ago and started having spark blowout around 8:1 AFR. above that the car was still running decent. Literally without having the UIM bolted on. It would barely idle but drove around pretty good.
Since you and all your buddy's are too lazy to do a little searching around so they just throw in rx7 engines. Wow that makes things easier. I wonder how they do that with no reaserch! I will say those are some cool engines that don't use coils.
Here you go. People mostly have weak spark. A lot of times coils work well until they get loaded and hot then start having problems. That's why you use a specific tester that has a huge spark gap and causes the coil to heat up. Most people are too lazy/cheap to buy the 20 dollar tester and swap out a set of coils. Plenty of people use stock coils and have no problems with them at all. A reasonable number of people upgrade to GM d585 coils and preach about how good they are because it made their engine run well. That is probably just because they neglected the previous system for so long that coils from a moped would improve the car. But there is tons of talk about the internals of the gm coils being different and needing specific coils. I personally think the difference is between elchepo ebay coils and good coils. I haven't had a problem with true AC delco d585 coils I bought. But I've always had the dwell bumped to the max on them. I had a boost leak a few days ago and started having spark blowout around 8:1 AFR. above that the car was still running decent. Literally without having the UIM bolted on. It would barely idle but drove around pretty good.
10-26-2015, 11:26 AM
#36
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That's quite ambitious.
Where did I ask this? Pretty sure I knew how to do this before I even registered here, lol.
Yep.
Thanks for the first informative post in this thread, which is what I was thinking may be reality, but I was looking for someone with experience to say they had seen that occur so I wasn't just blindly making a choice on which way to go with setting up the ignition on this thing.
So you're also of the opinion that the stock stuff is probably fine, it's more than likely user error, but due to people....posting on the internet the stock stuff is too weak without verifying it's actually too weak they blindly swap to GM coils, then claim they're great, but in reality they're comparing a brand new oem coil to a nearly 10 year old electronic component, which is not an apples to apples comparison...
Which is ironically why I asked for first hand experience, and instead got the same blind advice from many users that you are even ranting about....have to appreciate the irony of that.
...have to ask how to check spark plugs and coils. Heck any Autozone, Orileys, or Advanced auto parts can tell you how to do that. The only thing talked about more on this site than coils is oil...
jargon
Plenty of people use stock coils and have no problems with them at all. A reasonable number of people upgrade to GM d585 coils and preach about how good they are because it made their engine run well. That is probably just because they neglected the previous system for so long that coils from a moped would improve the car. But there is tons of talk about the internals of the gm coils being different and needing specific coils. I personally think the difference is between elchepo ebay coils and good coils. I haven't had a problem with true AC delco d585 coils I bought. But I've always had the dwell bumped to the max on them. I had a boost leak a few days ago and started having spark blowout around 8:1 AFR. above that the car was still running decent. Literally without having the UIM bolted on. It would barely idle but drove around pretty good.
So you're also of the opinion that the stock stuff is probably fine, it's more than likely user error, but due to people....posting on the internet the stock stuff is too weak without verifying it's actually too weak they blindly swap to GM coils, then claim they're great, but in reality they're comparing a brand new oem coil to a nearly 10 year old electronic component, which is not an apples to apples comparison...
Which is ironically why I asked for first hand experience, and instead got the same blind advice from many users that you are even ranting about....have to appreciate the irony of that.
Last edited by mikespeed95; 10-26-2015 at 11:33 AM.
10-26-2015, 11:36 AM
#39
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The stock ignition is really really reliable ... for about 15,000 miles. It is plug and play and will always work (assuming you don't get counterfeits). However, for a race car where reliability is that concern, yes, you should upgrade. However, the upgrade cost may not be really viable for your lemons budget limit, in which case I'd say stick with OEM coils.
I'm curious if these cars will still actually run on a weak coil, or if the engine doesn't' start only when it is completely dead, for purposes of failure prevention in an endurance race environment. I've got a box of LS coils at my shop and can easily convert, but would rather use the factory stuff if it's only a problem online, and not a problem in the real world.
Real world coil failure is very very common. It's not just an online problem. Again, refer back to the dyno reference I made. There is a thread about it. 14% power loss from weak coils that still started and ran the engine without an apparent problem. Think about that from a race car perspective. You can use weak coils far past where any race car should be using them.
I've messed with 13b stuff a lot, but not RX8/Renesis so was trying to see how real the ignition issues were, by having people with first hand information post, and not this "I own a keyboard and a computer, and I read this thing 2nd hand account you probably read too" or "This is 2015 and I haven't come to terms with the fact that I am mentally deficient because I can use Google"crap but apparently that was asking too much.
It's so common as to literally be on the same level as oil changes.
10-26-2015, 11:42 AM
#40
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mike, I'm going to have someone show up at your shop with a car that hasn't had an oil change in 20,000 miles, and have them pester the crap out of you about whether or not they should change their oil. Looking for people with first hand experience from someone, anyone, who has tested their oil before changing it. Once you convince them to change their oil, I'm going to have them insist on asking you for first hand proof of whether changing to synthetic is better than changing to dino. It won't matter what you tell them, because they are going to insist on asking you for proof from cars where you have tested the oil before changing it, of both types, to make sure it's a clean comparison and they weren't just changing it early or running it too old and then changing it just because someone from some shop told them to.
It sounds stupid doesn't it?
Well, that is basically what you are asking us about coils. You don't think you are. But you are.
It sounds stupid doesn't it?
Well, that is basically what you are asking us about coils. You don't think you are. But you are.
10-26-2015, 11:56 AM
#41
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Looking for people with first hand experience from someone, anyone, who has tested their oil before changing it. Once you convince them to change their oil, I'm going to have them insist on asking you for first hand proof of whether changing to synthetic is better than changing to dino. It won't matter what you tell them, because they are going to insist on asking you for proof from cars where you have tested the oil before changing it, of both types, to make sure it's a clean comparison and they weren't just changing it early or running it too old and then changing it just because someone from some shop told them to.
It sounds stupid doesn't it?
It sounds stupid doesn't it?
Well, that is basically what you are asking us about coils. You don't think you are. But you are.
10-26-2015, 12:12 PM
#42
Yes, there is a communications barrier.
But now that we're starting to understand what it is you're asking, more help can be offered.
Here is a link to a new coil package that is being introduced to the community. Have a read through, and then do some more digging.
https://www.rx8club.com/group-buy-ce...il-kit-258847/
FYI not all of us replace because we're told to. I test my plugs and coils prior to swapping out. I replaced my oem for bhr because at the time, I was intending to go FI.
I hope you find the answers you're looking for
But now that we're starting to understand what it is you're asking, more help can be offered.
Here is a link to a new coil package that is being introduced to the community. Have a read through, and then do some more digging.
https://www.rx8club.com/group-buy-ce...il-kit-258847/
FYI not all of us replace because we're told to. I test my plugs and coils prior to swapping out. I replaced my oem for bhr because at the time, I was intending to go FI.
I hope you find the answers you're looking for
10-26-2015, 12:30 PM
#43
Driving my unreliable rx8
I reaplaced my origional coils at 138K with plans of going FI.
I'll agree with you on G williams, but I'll also give him credit for posting you a list of starting troubles as his first post when you haden't even asked a question. Then once you asked about coil problems he posted a list of coil options and troubles. most of which I'll note
- The For-Sure OEM: Mazmart sells all 4 coils of the latest OEM coil revision (C) for around $250, (just the coils, you still need to add plugs and wires) Supported by top notch customer service. They will likely last longer than 30,000 miles, but we don't have much solid data on how long the latest coil revision will last.
That list basically answered everything I posted and that list has been posted all over the forums. Mostly by him I think. I'm pretty sure that list is directly from the new owners thread which is where you should have began from the beginning of coming to the boards. I don't know if you've seen it yet. I'm sure Riwwp can post a link easier than me. for that.
I'll agree with you on G williams, but I'll also give him credit for posting you a list of starting troubles as his first post when you haden't even asked a question. Then once you asked about coil problems he posted a list of coil options and troubles. most of which I'll note
- The For-Sure OEM: Mazmart sells all 4 coils of the latest OEM coil revision (C) for around $250, (just the coils, you still need to add plugs and wires) Supported by top notch customer service. They will likely last longer than 30,000 miles, but we don't have much solid data on how long the latest coil revision will last.
That list basically answered everything I posted and that list has been posted all over the forums. Mostly by him I think. I'm pretty sure that list is directly from the new owners thread which is where you should have began from the beginning of coming to the boards. I don't know if you've seen it yet. I'm sure Riwwp can post a link easier than me. for that.
10-26-2015, 12:40 PM
#44
I'll chime in...I need a laugh since I'm B@W.
I got my car with around 53k on it. Ran great, plenty of power, all that awesome stuff. Around 65k (memory is hazy on exactly when I did this), I inspected the coils and decided they needed to be changed (bad burn marks on the bottoms). Changed them out, along with plugs and wire, and the car felt immensely better. The caveat is, I bought cheap coils.
Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago, I ordered a BHR ignition kit, as it was the one thing on my "wishlist" I could do before the car goes into hibernation for the winter. I pulled the cheap ones that were only 10k old and they already looked like the set I pulled at ~65k. I dropped the BHR kit in and (after a lot of stupidity in regards to crossing up plug wires) I immediately felt a difference in how the car started, ran, accelerated, and behaved overall. This is my personal experience, others may vary.
The OEM-style coils on the 8 are terrible after a short period of time, that's just they are made. More proven coils are out there as many have stated. That's the only real way around having to replace them so often.
TL;DR, you either pay a little bit often or a lot once...your decision.
I got my car with around 53k on it. Ran great, plenty of power, all that awesome stuff. Around 65k (memory is hazy on exactly when I did this), I inspected the coils and decided they needed to be changed (bad burn marks on the bottoms). Changed them out, along with plugs and wire, and the car felt immensely better. The caveat is, I bought cheap coils.
Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago, I ordered a BHR ignition kit, as it was the one thing on my "wishlist" I could do before the car goes into hibernation for the winter. I pulled the cheap ones that were only 10k old and they already looked like the set I pulled at ~65k. I dropped the BHR kit in and (after a lot of stupidity in regards to crossing up plug wires) I immediately felt a difference in how the car started, ran, accelerated, and behaved overall. This is my personal experience, others may vary.
The OEM-style coils on the 8 are terrible after a short period of time, that's just they are made. More proven coils are out there as many have stated. That's the only real way around having to replace them so often.
TL;DR, you either pay a little bit often or a lot once...your decision.
10-26-2015, 12:47 PM
#45
FULLY SEMI AUTOMATIC
iTrader: (9)
white spots on the coils dont mean ****. what i used to do is just replace the whole set up every spring when my car came out of hibernation and i put less than 10k a year on my car. advanced auto sells lifetime coils so i would just get new ones each year
10-26-2015, 12:50 PM
#46
Driving my unreliable rx8
See that's exactly what he's not after. Someone who swapped their coils because they became a little discolored and is using the butt dyno to say BHR are great. you spent what 700 dollars over 10K miles instead of buying a 20 dollar tester and actaully knowing what's going on.
Now I'm not fussing about what you did it worked for you and it takes a long time to sort through all the information to find that tester and know better.
And That isn't helping you mike, when people are helping then you and you bad mounthing them for no reason than you deserve what you get.
Now I'm not fussing about what you did it worked for you and it takes a long time to sort through all the information to find that tester and know better.
And That isn't helping you mike, when people are helping then you and you bad mounthing them for no reason than you deserve what you get.
10-26-2015, 12:55 PM
#47
FULLY SEMI AUTOMATIC
iTrader: (9)
log why wouldnt i swap them out every year? didnt cost me anything after buying the coils once
10-26-2015, 01:07 PM
#48
Think he was referring to me on that one. I did say "wishlist" item. Plus, I've only had the coils in a week and they replaced cheap ones...of course it's going to be worlds better. Once they have 10k miles on them, we'll see if I'm singing the same praises. But for now, as many of us know, new coils almost make it feel like a new car.
10-26-2015, 01:17 PM
#49
FULLY SEMI AUTOMATIC
iTrader: (9)
Think he was referring to me on that one. I did say "wishlist" item. Plus, I've only had the coils in a week and they replaced cheap ones...of course it's going to be worlds better. Once they have 10k miles on them, we'll see if I'm singing the same praises. But for now, as many of us know, new coils almost make it feel like a new car.
10-26-2015, 02:08 PM
#50
Driving my unreliable rx8
No I'm with you 200. I use the heck out of auto stores with lifetime warrenties . And I really wasn't trying to be mean toward andrew. I've swapped a few things and found out later it wasn't a good idea. So I spend more in the long run.