Sheehan

So right after I got my rx-8, Either the coils or spark plugs one went bad.
The CEL light started blinking for mis-fire one day so I babied the car to the garage, I didn't have to go far.
I even stopped twice to let the exhaust cool down because it was getting hot.
Dad said he could see the CAT glowing cherry red.
A few weeks later I got the coils and plugs replaced the car runs fine but started throwing a p0420 cel. I
'm assuming since my CAT was glowing red, I probably melted the insides of the cat?
I have some sort of aftermarket 3" high flow cat, also obx catback exhaust and obx chrome headers if that matters.
My question is assuming my CAT is melted or messed up, how will this affect the car?
Can I clean out the CAT and gut it? Will this hurt anything? Is the CAT difficult to get off? I don't really care that the CEL is on. I just don't want to hurt anything.

Also, if I ever had to bring the car into MAZDA, would they void my 100,000 rotary core warrenty over the aftermarket cat and exhaust and headers? I still have the stock headers and exhaust but not the stock cat. Maybe I shold get one just for backup incase I ever had to bring the car to MAZDA?

EDIT - Forgot to mention Arkansas doesn't have inspection so it doesn't matter that my cat doesn't pass emissions or whatever

dozer

iTrader: (3)

if its the cat, just gut i out and you should be fine, + itll breathe better...the cat is easy to take off, just remember to remove the nuts and not the bolts, cus the bolts wont budge...

i have a straight pipe on mine its throwin a CEL, but everythings fine

dozer

iTrader: (3)

mazda has to prove that the aftermarket parts were the cause of the failing engine, for them to void the warranty

teknics

replacing the stock cat 9 times out of 10 will void your warranty. seen it happen to more then one customer. had one guy bring mazda to court, mazda won. so they now have at least one legal verdict in their favor making future cases even easier...altho im sure there's more then one case under their belt.

kevin.

Sheehan

Sounds like I need to have a stock cat on hand in case the car ever has to go to mazda.
Thanks teknics

zoom44

really kevin? if the stock cat fails then what do you recommend people do?

teknics

OEM Replacement is the only mazda recommendation (for just about everything), and i dont think there's an OEM equivalent aftermarket option, but if there is I'm sure mazda would at least take a look before giving the ok.

Basically when you remove or replace the cat with a different one mazda considers that basically removal of the emissions system and tampering with items necessary to the proper function of the vehicle. if you check your warranty that is something that will quickly void it. The emissions system must NOT be tampered/changed in any way.

I'd just throw the stock cat back on before taking it in.

kevin.

Sheehan

Thanks Kevin, I'll be sure to buy a stock cat and put it on if I ever have to bring the car to Mazda.

I also have an obx exhaust from the catback and obx headers.
Would either of those **** mazda off? And I have a K&N Intake.
Surely they wouldn't care about the intake? Thanks - Logan

zoom44

But by saying you can only use the OEM Cat or you will void your entire warranty Mazda would be in violation of the Magnuson-Moss act and the Clean Air Act

http://www.sema.org/Main/SemaOrgHome.aspx?ID=50100

a good reference is the FTC site itself

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus01.shtm



Mazda's warranty DOES NOT limit you to only TIE-In sales of its OEM emissions equiptment because it is not allowed to. Since it does NOT then you are allowed to use whatever exhaust system components you want and Mazda has to PROVE the parts you used caused the other problem you are seeking warranty work for. They CAN NOT simply void your whole warranty out of hand.

If your Throttle body stops operating within the warranty period they CAN NOT deny the warranty service for it because of an aftermarket cat without PROVING the cat caused the failure of the Throttle Body.

For instance the CAT warranty doesnt cover it having holes poked in it by road debris. So you go and buy a non OEM one to replace it. They cannot deny the rest of your warranty for that.



-Charlie

G3tR3DDY2GR3DDY

iTrader: (8)

id like to agree with you charlie, but its simply not the reality.

I had a midpipe on my car, said it was no problem. Transmission had the second gear synchro issue. I ended up paying out 1900.00 because the midpipe "showed signs of abuse to the car"...

zoom44

bullshit - you should have fought them. you have to take them to arbitration or to court. thats the reality. you let them make you pay.. all you had to do was get sworn statements from 3 or 4 people on here with synchro issue that were repaired under warranty and copies of their repair orders.

It only protects you if you use it.

zoom44

From Mr. Barnes

I added the bold for emphasis

Jon316G

iTrader: (1)

I had to take my 8 in for warranty service a few years ago and I called my dealer's manager to confirm that my midpipe wouldn't void any warranties.
He basically said the same thing as Zoom's discussion with Mr. Barnes, that a component will not be warrantied if the aftermarket part directly caused the failure.
If they (the dealer) can't prove it caused the failure, they have to warranty it.

teknics

zoom44: i think you misunderstood when i said void your warranty. There are multiple subsections to your warranty. I was responding specifically to the OP's question about his 8yr/100k short block warranty. THAT SPECIFIC warranty will be voided by a cat replacement. If he's in his basic warranty it wont void the whole warranty, it wont "void" anything. Mazda will however refuse (or at least give you grief) to replace items pertaining to or connected to what is/was modified.

Also modifications, as another poster mentioned, can be used as evidence as to a sign of possible abuse. Believe it or not all car manufacturers regularly browse and research the web for pictures of their cars being raced whether on a track or otherwise and will use any information on those cars to track them down and put them on a watchlist for any big dollar warranty repairs.

Now im not saying all this is set in stone ive seen modded cars have motors warrantied, it depends on a lot of other factors.

Also back to the midpipe/aftermarket cat directly linking to an engine failure. Mazda does not have to prove a sudden failure scenario, all they have to prove is a harmful change to the systems involved in maintaining the engine life. A midpipe/aftermarket cat can easily be linked to fueltrim changes, backpressure loss, all kinds of little things which when taken into a longterm consideration would lead to early then normal damage to a motor.

Once you get into the legal-ese of the situations you have to realize there's ton of room to read between the lines.

In regard to the person with the midpipe and synchro issue...honestly a call to the district rep probably would've got them in your favor, depending on warranty history and if there's any other information in your cars file.

BTW this is a key reason you see license plates blanked out on internet pics, the manufacturers are watching, whether you know it or not. Go ask the Evo drivers...mitsubishi constantly watches the web. Once they find someone even autocrossing they send you a letter to let you know your powertrain warranty is now void, other manufacturers dont go to such extremes but they do take notes, and will gladly pull them up when needed.

Kevin.

Jon316G

iTrader: (1)

Wow... get paid to surf the web and watch race/autocross videos.
Sounds like my current job!

In seriousness... that is actually crazy to know that dealers are doing this, but I guess its not a surprise.

zoom44

No it absolutely will not be. It has to be proven that it caused the failure


they cannot void the warranty on the engine for replacing the cat. a "back pressure loss" will NOT cause any damage to an engine AT ALL. How would a cat change cause the PCM to make such drastic changes to fuel trims that the seals would fail?


They absolutely have to prove cause and effect. Its the law. If they wanted to go to court over it im sure someone from the cat supplier would be glad to swear an affidavit saying their cats can in no way endanger the operation of an engine.

actually there isn't in this case. they have to prove the damage was caused by the part.


thats from fear and nothing else. Yes Mazda watches this and other forums. They had at one time 8 people to do just that. I have never hidden my identity from them and have made sure in fact they know who i am. I changed my intake my shifter and the flash in my PCM- guess what? My original warranty was intact right until the time ran out and my core warranty is still intact.

teknics

It has to be proven that it *attributed* to the failure.

If a midpipe is in place the car no longer can enter closed loop, it can also never verifiably know the ratio within the combustion chamber. Yes the sensor before the cat reads whats coming out the exhaust but it assumes the cat behind it will have certain effects when it signals the PCM as to what is going on and what should be done. Without a cat behind it it's signals are incorrect, providing incorrect information to the PCM. A PCM with incorrect info regarding fuel mixture and the engines reactions to it's changes can, and has been proven to, lead to engine failure. Failure in this term not specifying a type of engine damage. Depending on exact damage this info may not pertain, such as oil seal failure etc.

Now an aftermarket cat being there, if found to be different then the OEM cat in terms of efficency and such, can cause (on slightly smaller scale but still measurable) a similar chain reaction.

Now while you can say "the pcm caused the failure" the root is the cat. But the cat confuses the PCM into making incorrect decisions. The PCM is the controlling boidy of the motor. Having such an important role any misinformation is spread throughout the network. Therefore anything the PCM controls has become liable to causing damage as well. Therefore the entire engine management system is putting the engine at risk, all traceable back to a simple cat/o2 sensor.

This is all that must be proven in court. Again based on what type of engine failure is being talked about.

mazda will gladly test, they have no problem if other's products match theirs. If they match mazda will gladly warranty the engine, they have no problem. Or if the engine damage is found to be of a type not created by outside forces it will gladly warranty it.

All warranties remain in effect, as i said it depend s on where you go. Mazda isnt constantly bringing up peoples warranty files and reviewing them. They may flag them and simply wait to see if anything unusual or big dollar pops up. They dont mind fixing your cup holders and radios, they do mind sending out motors and trans if they dont have.

As a note, mazda requests back any parts they find suspicious, installs them in the vehicle to prove the symptoms and then tears it down. They do this with anything we warranty, if they find small items unwarrantable they bounce the cost back to the dealer (which is why dealers are **** about their warranty items sometimes and would rather have you pay when they arent 100% sure itll be covered)

As for the intake thing, thats already a court case thats run its course. It is now fundamental manufacturer knowledge that they cant do anything about intakes because the engine control system isnt effected, it can make adjustments for the increased airflow and therefore isnt the cause of engine failure. But try putting a MAF in there that doesnt belong, that's a whole new case.

In all honesty I'm not battling you here as you seem to be on the offensive, I just feel some don't understand the "you pay to play" ideal behind modifying cars. If you want to squeeze all the power out of your car that you think you can, thats on you, but obviously thats not what the car is built for. The mazda rotary case is however unique in that the engine is just as likely to fail normally as it is modified.

im simply a car enthusiast, nothing else, i just know what the other side of the fence looks like.

kevin.

zoom44

I know Ive looked at my own warranty file in Mazda's system and have seen the notes that are there No flags

Actually IMHO the Intakes and their oiled filters can cause more problems with dirtying the MAF then an aftermarket CAT can because of people over-oiling them. And they DO mention not using oiled filters for that reason.

Im not battling you either and i despise the people who crack their engine and then put it all back to stock and try to get over - hurts EVERYONE. But people need to know their rights and part of that is understanding that NO manufacture can validate the WHOLE warranty just because they have added aftermarket parts. replacing a damaged cat with an aftermarket CAT is no different than replacing a tire with an aftermarket tire. Its allowed and they cant void your whole warranty for having it. IF its proven that the CAT caused a problem then you have recourse with the company that produced the CAT.

teknics

'tis always a good thing. Some dealerships with certain track records are actually allowed to self-authorize any repair, at those dealers you have a good chance of not having your actual files ever looked at until after the fact (I'm personally at a point where I can basically self-authorize Renesis motors, i know who to contact and im rarely asked questions when i determine the motor bad). Most dealers arent self-authorizing tho.

Yea that's like an asterisk situation lol. I have heard the non-oiled filter line repeated many times from mazda, and thats why the mazdaspeed filters are all dry.

Yea exactly the point I was going to as well, If your motor does go and mazda finds your aftermarket cat as unsuitable you're not down ****'s creek because now you have proof to bring to the cat company and they should be liable for the engine repair. I wasn't trying to imply the owner has to bite the bullet. I was more geared towards the midpipe thing as people seem to think thats a no harm mod, when in reality it does make differences in areas you wouldnt think of. Unfortunately I feel most people go midpipe since it's cheap and loud and don't think back about what the actual effects will be, they do however remember to throw that cat up before getting it towed in which I'm not cool with, thats what i was refering to with the pay to play thing, i dont like sneaky bastids .

All in all a rather productive conversation I feel, hopefully people now will better understand their rights as well as mazda's rights, because there's always 2 sides to a coin .

Nice chatting,
kevin.

zoom44

well that makes 2 guys ai know that could self authorize- the other now works for the ford side of the dealership. MNAO actually offered him a job and the dealer bought health insurance for his whole family and offered him the ford job for more money to keep him on.

there are none here in oregon. you should look at the numbers on these dealers here

teknics

LOL, what is this oregon you speak of? j/k

full self-authorizing dealers are few and far between, self authorizing techs are hard to find but there are a few. when you have proven to excel at specific areas mazda is willing to be lenient, saves them time, money, and effort. I'm not completely there but like I said when it comes to rx8 i typically dont have to answer questions.

your friend definitely seems like a real asset to his dealer, always good to hear about guys being that important as a lot of the times it seems dealers are caring less and less about real techs.

kevin.

skrubol

iTrader: (1)

I thought the second O2 sensor was strictly for diagnostics. This is the first I've heard that second O2 does anything with fuel trims, etc.

teknics

re-read the quote "sensor before the cat" and "expects a cat behind it"

the 2nd o2 is simply a monitor.

kevin.

skrubol

iTrader: (1)

Ok, so basically you mean backpressure...

Easy_E1

iTrader: (2)

The second O2 sensor monitors the efficiency of the CAT.