gtommy

iTrader: (2)

In february, I dropped my car at mazda to get the transmission synchros fixed under warranty : about 75% of the tranny was replaced with new parts.

I was advised by Mazda to replace as well the clutch. So I bought an ACT ZM8-HD-SS Clutch and had it install by Mazda. They charged me 1h of extra labor for the installation of the clutch.

My initial feeling after the installation was very positive : new clutch felt great, solid, precise, stiff, low friction point.

But after a week, it became the way it was previously (it wasn't working as a normal OEM clutch previously) meaning very soft, imprecise, lots of free play, can't feel the friction point but friction "band" instead and car used to shake a lot in 1st of reverse when trying to find the sweetspot.

Complained 3 times at Mazda about the clutch, was always given a stupid answer such as 'nothing wrong', 'you're new pressure plate is soft' etc...

In april, at a stop light, can't shift any gears and stuck in neutral. Got it towed to the dealer and finally accepted to have it inspected.

I was told that the pilot bearing exploded and melted on the input shaft, pressure plate, flywheel and more...

Picture 1: pilot bearing or what's left of it and pressure plate
Picture 2: input shaft & residue

Input shaft was brand new. They estimate 18h of labour to get to the input shaft and try to 'clean it' but still that won't do it.
They already 'looked' for a used tranny that they can sell me for 2000$, cheaper than labor.

I drove around 1000K with the new clutch, daily drive to work. It's still winter here in Canada.

The story is actually longer, they were very contradictory, nervous, rude then polite. They are simply blame it on me while ACT is accepting to back up their product if there was any defectuous part that was sent to me.

When I tried approching the manager politely to ask him when I could meet him to discuss a 'problem' : he said he was aware of the file and for him they are no doubts at all that job was correctly ade and basically 'f**** off. I believe he's behind it all, try to mask something...Maybe the cost of the tranny that was replaced under warranty?
Something's VERY odd, I simly don't understand what.

At this stage, I'm completely shocked, dissapointed, stunned and depressed. I need my car to get to work and I know I won be putting any cent on this tranny/clutch problem since I got everything brand new barely 1000K ago and my tranny is still under warranty.

Any technical info that can proove installation was wrongly made?
Any advise on how to deal with them?
Better Business Bureau? Mazda Canada? Lawyer ?

ANYTHING at all?

I have an intense feeling that I'll simply never see my car again.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

did they replace the bearing? as it is usually provided in the kit.

if they did not. they loose. if they did. they likely loose.

first guess no lube. or did not change.

second is ppf way of, but the symptoms of that likely would have been noticed and you would have returned the car..

or you just got a bad bearing. unlikely. but it could happen..

and btw, i have never seen this happen.

beers

teknics

I'm guessing they never replaced the pilot bearing, poorly installed bearing or bearing seal, improper install of tranny/input shaft onto motor (unbolted and hanging, or forced in without being 100% straight), improper removal of old pilot bearing damaging interior surface pilot bearing "sits" on and thus damaging new pilot bearing (if they don't/can't resurface the interior to at least close to perfectly smooth, good way to check is look at outer part of bearing, explosion shouldn't damage it since there's 0 clearance between it and the surface and it's so thin i doubt it'd dent since it essentially has the strength of the crank due to it's thinness), hell with rebuilding the trans maybe the input shaft had slop in it somehow and the trans itself is at fault...probably a whole bunch more, but that's squarely on the bearing IMHO so it comes down to pre-install quality or actual install.

Would the PPF being off unalign the input shaft? Just throwing my thought out, personal opinion, but i think that the PPF would allow the trans to sink but that would mainly cause bad motor mounts because the trans case is tightly secured to the engine essentially making it one unit so outside angles shouldnt matter since the trans will tilt the engine down keep the shaft with no extra stress of shifting, the d-shaft would be more susceptible to u-joint failure tho due to increase of angle.

either way it looks like material was only added to the shaft, I'd imagine you can smooth it relatively close to spec without disassembling the whole trans (just pull off bellhousing) if anything a machine shop could probably get it right to spec. This is considering no material was lost from the input shaft, at that point i don't think i'd reuse the shaft though.

most of this is personal opinion but i dont think anything you did would cause that if it was operating properly, especially in only 1k miles for it to happen, definitely something fucked up on install (either the parts or the re-assembly) IMHO. gonna recheck the pics to see if anything may be "hidden" in them...

kevin.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

the reason i mention the ppf is.

when my engine was changed. they also replace the motor mounts at the same time.

it was done from the front, with the tranny and ppf all intact. after it was all done.

the master tech drove the car with me and it had a very obvious clutch chatter..

he was puzzled. i asked him about the ppf. he was shocked that i knew about it. i learned about it here.

well. seems that a simple adjustment later, all was well.

but i agree. likely did not replace, or lube. or damaged it on the install. looks like cling wrap on the input shaft..

beers

teknics

Clutch being effected i think i can see since it needs to sit on the input shaft flush and since at times it's basically free-hanging the angle could cause it to sit un-square i guess. But have you found anyone with bearing damage or noise due to the ppf? (honest question, if you have i'd love to know, something to keep in mind for future repair ideas)

kevin.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

the oddity in my engine change was the motor mounts at the same time. it changed the rules. everything was not in the same location as when it came out.

now the question you ask is going on right now. i will have an answer for you late next week!

have an odd slight shudder, and a bit more tranny noise than i had before. it is not the shifter. went from my afe short shifter back to stock. same thing..

beers

gtommy

iTrader: (2)

Guys, thanks a lot for all the ideas...

First regarding the engine mounts, I didnt know it could have anything to do with the tranny. I actually got the engine mounts replaced under warranty last month based on the latest TSB. But the car was still very shacky after installation which always made me wonder whether they really replaced them or not.
The engine mounts were installed 2 days after installing my BHR Kit. So I was really expecting to have better idle vibration.
Even worst, I did the engine cleaning using SeaFoam. And since then, whenever I rev the engine @ 6000 and more, the engine shakes so much on the left side that you actually feel the car 'levetating'. I don't know how absurd that sounds but really, it seems to be barely attached on the left side.

I gave him on the phone the part numbers of the new engine mounts since they didn know about them and confirmed that he could get his hand on them and install them. I wonder if they really did.


I totally agree that probably this pilot bearin was either poorly installed; either they didnt use the new one I provided; either poorly lubrificated or maybe it was really defectuous but really, though not impossible, not very likely. And they are trying to convince me that part broke, bad luck dude.

I will post closer pictures, maybe you can discover something else.

Sorry but what's PPF ?

The tech also say that he never seen ths before. Just like BHR. Just like ACT. Just like Eric@WorksConcetps who sold me the clutch.

Don't forget guys that my clutch only worked for the few first days, afte that it really detoriated and become very soft, loose, unprecise etc...
They never admitted that when I brought 3 times for inspection.

And now when I ask them what could have caused this they say: we really don't know.

Basically I paid for an installation of a clutch that isnt working properly and after denying, they now say that we don't know why.


How can I now proove anything? They don't want to hear about a bad installation thing. No such thing.

Last weird fact : they flooded the car while it was sitting in their garage and waiting for my approval to dissamble the clutch and verify the problem. I discovered that when I came at night to test my clutch pedal and see if it was broken or anything. I didnt say anything to see if they were giong to mention it to me.
I asked them to contact me as soon as they get the car in for inspection. They never did. When I called back the next day it was already in and he already had the news but never called me. So when I showed up, I asked how they got the car in.They said we turned it on. I asked if it was easy/hard to start. They said yes a bit hard. A bit or a lot? A lot. Why a lot/ Maybe someone flooded it. Oh really? Well yes maybe. Is it working now then? We'll have to see when we reassemble it.
They were really nervous and surprised that I knew about this... Just because I came two days before to check something and discovered that.


I dont know yet what they are hiding... But how can I proceed to find out what's going on and blame the right person

gtommy

iTrader: (2)

At this stage, you forum members, experts, vendors, amateurs, owners are my only hope...

gtommy

iTrader: (2)

Charles, thanks for the intervention.

Is there any way I can prove this or try to look into something that could point to that conclusion?
At this stage I'm just puzzled. I don't really know where to take it from.

I simply need to have my car back and be able to drive it. Lawyers procedures would take years before setlling this thing down...

I also guess they are voiding my tranny warranty because of this... I'm wondering if it's a 'revenge' after fixing my tranny under warranty and then replacing cat twice and the muffler in a 3 months interval.

Where can I find more clues?

Nubo

The fact that they blew you off 3 times when you complained of clutch problems, is already an indication that they lack competence, concern, or both. It weighs heavily against them in this case, imo. Hopefully, you have written proof of those instances.

I read here a lot of cases where people have Mazda install aftermarket clutches during warranty claims, and I just don't get it. Just leaves too much room for finger-pointing if/when something goes wrong. And given that there were tranny problems to begin with, it just gives the dealer too much wiggle room. And I wouldn't discount the possibility of direct sabotage by a surly mechanic faced with the blasphemy of a non-Mazda part.

teknics

here's all the answers you need right from your own post. A great aftermarket company/shop such as BHR has never seen nor heard of this before part failing like this. ACT a global aftermarket company has never seen/heard of it failing like this. Everyone involved with the parts side of the equation has never seen/heard of this kind of failure. So the odds of it being a LABOR problem are a lot higher.
LABOR + PARTS = FAILURE (in this case).
the parts are NOT known for this failure so you're left with:
LABOR = FAILURE.

plus the dealer seems to have lots of shady ideas, IMHO.

kevin.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

The bearing material is galled on the input shaft...basically it " welded" itself onto the shaft.

It takes high heat and pressure to do that.....basically the bearing packed it in....siezed and spun until it got so hot it melted...

There is no way that is normal...especially if it happens after only 1000 kilometres since the clutch was replaced. That bearing should have been replaced with the install...and it should last the life of the clutch.

They screwed something up...likely bent the bearing when they installed the input shaft...

It is their fault..there is nothing you can do driving that will cause that type of failure

gtommy

iTrader: (2)

Did I mention they are voiding my tranny warranty for this?

It's obvious that it's an installation problem but it's also obvious that they are not willing to admit or confess anything, yet...

Anyone had success dealing with their dealer about a similar case?

Vyndictive

iTrader: (28)

Reading these just make my blood boil.

I hate dealerships and hate repair shops... those two places are enough to get me to learn everything I can about my car so I never have to go to one of those hellish places.

I haven't heard many success stories. However, the fact that they're voiding your warranty is crazy. Get as much written documentation as you can to build your case.

How are they/you planning to fix the car as it stands now?

Socket7

Contact mazda operations, and contact a lawyer.

Or contact your local Fox News affiliate. They love doing expose's on dealerships that break their customers cars then charge them for it.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

wow, your dealership is full of ****.

Im willing to bet 10 bux that they never replaced the pilot bearing. That part is not that hard to replace as LONG as you have the right tool, takes like a minute to pop it out (I have the thing in my garage and I used it before so I know ) but lazy is lazy so they probably never did. and look at the pictures, Im willing to place another 10 bux on the bet that they did a very crappy install, probably never aligned it correctly.

Call Mazda Corporate and see what they say.

gtommy

iTrader: (2)

thank you guys, at least for the support...

ACT has been really nice and helpful, they analyzed the picture while I still need to send them the parts.

They don't see any trace of lube nor on the input shaft nor on the bearing.

It's also 'weird' that the seal is missing... it should be right there.

What am I doing meanwhile? Nothing, paying taxis... It's been 2 weeks.
I contacted other mazda dealers and they need to see the car to be able to analyze it as well, but it's all taken a part and sitting outside. So I would need to reinstall everything and pay for it to be able to tow it somewhere else, but I'm not doing that for the moment.

I contacted Mazda Canada but before even hearing the story they were backing up their dealer. Also contacted the 'Canadian consumer bureau' to file a complaint. Heading tomorrow to see the director of the garage but not expecting anything, they are all covering their asses.
And you should see how bad they all are at lying...

Contacting local news is a great idea too.
And you should see how bad they all are at lying...

gtommy

iTrader: (2)

They flooded my car while it was sitting there for inspection and waiting for my approval to dissamble the tranny and see what's going wrong.

Without them knowing, I came one night to check my clutch pedal and tried starting the car : no success, it was obviously flooded. They moved it during the day. It never happened to me in 2y, since I take great care of it.

This is why I called them the next day and explicitly asked to be notified as soon as the car gets in the garage for inspection (because I knew it was never going to start even though you can't get in any gears anyways and you would need to push it) and as soon as they have some news.

Obviously, 2 days after, they never called so I did. I was told "oh, we have news, but bad news. Flywheel, clutch, input shaft all gone, but we found a used tranny (we don't know how many miles, where it comes from or anything) and it should cost you around 2000$ + installation + all other parts".

That's the 'solution' they gave me... and for me, it's not one.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

thats what Im wondering too, I dont see any signs of lube on the shaft itself, they could be wipe off , who knows.

but if they forgot to put lube/grease at the pilot ..... that explains why everything is fucked up.

Razz1

If you have documentation that you brought it back for a clutch problem 3x before the 1000 mile mark, you can win a lawsuit hands down.

If you went to dealer and complained and they did nothing or drove the car around the block but didn't document and give you a reciept you will have a harder time.

Still, it is very low miles for it to fail.

We had a member here in Cali who had a new rebuilt engine installed by Mazda.

Fuel fitting not tightened and car burned to the ground. He never got his money from the dealership.

gtommy

iTrader: (2)

No written proof of my complaints, but still, they went for 2 test drives and a bunch of technician sat in it to try the clutch and they couldn't understand what was 'wrong' with it.

It would be indeed much easier if I had that documented. Are they also planning to lie about that?

gtommy

iTrader: (2)

Yes they could claim that he cleaned the grease but I'm sure he wouldn't do that...
And what about the seal that comes with the kit? Absolutely no trace of it whatsoever?

Let's suppose the seal wasn't installed (lost during installation), could it cause such damage?

HeavyMetal699

Believe it or not but when someone goes to court and they can simply lie to get out of serious trouble they will definitely lie.

In fact very few people would tell the truth.

My suggestion would be to obtain legal counsel ASAP. I'm not familiar with Canadian laws, but my guess would be that the dealership will end up fixing it in a timely manner. It will most likely never go to court. Most likely the fact that you have legal counsel will motivate the dealership to analyze the possible outcomes and choose the one that costs the least amount of time and resources.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Is there any damage to the actual clutch surface..pressure plate, disc, or flywheel?

Ask them how you could have damaged the pilot bearing in 1000K if the clutch has no damage

I can't even think of a scenario the bearing would fail from abuse...especially WITHOUT the clutch being fried. The only scenario that makes sense is an install error

Razz1

WRONG!

Both parties lie. It is up to the judge to determine who is lying more.

Not my words but a judge's.