Machinist's Workshop Penetrating Oils - Test
04-20-2014, 03:03 PM
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Machinist's Workshop Penetrating Oils - Test
I was sent this on another forum and found that it was very interesting informative about liquids used to break free rusted/seized bolts. I have attached the original PDF, but am quoting it in post content here as well.
Testing Different Types of Penetrating Oils
By Lloyd Bender
Testing Different Types of Penetrating Oils
By Lloyd Bender
A question that is often raised by mechanics is the effectiveness of penetrating oils in loosening rusted fasteners. Do the commercial products really loosen bolts and, if so, which one works the best? To find out, four of these (Kano Kroil, Liquid Wrench, PBBlaster, and WD-40) were tested for performance, along with a homebrew mix of one part automatic transmission fluid with one part acetone.
Natural exposure would be representative of real world applications, but requires a very long time and a number of replicate samples to handle the wide sample-to-sample scatter encountered in natural exposure. Using artificially accelerated corrosion reduces the time required and provides nearly identical test samples. The testing done was not on bolts, since I don't have access to equipment for measuring the torque on threaded fasteners, but can measure the load on a sliding fit.
So you can decide if this was a fair test or not, this is what I did. A 5/8" diameter rod of cold-finished low carbon steel was lathe drilled, parted off in 0.50" lengths, and numbered sequentially. Each length was individually reamed to 0.250". All pieces along with commercial ground 1/4" x 1" dowel pins were ultrasonically cleaned together for twenty minutes in methanol to remove all machining fluid and oil. A dowel was inserted into each length using light finger pressure leaving 1/4" of dowel exposed at each end. Yearsof exposure were simulated by twelve hours of alternate immersion using ten minutes in a 3% solution of NaCI (table salt) followed by 50 minutes of drying in 105° Fair.
The corroded samples were randomly divided into five groups (Photo 1), plus one control group left as-corroded. One fluid ounce of penetrating oil was used to immerse each group of three samples for a period of twelve hours.
Samples were then drained on paper towels to remove the excess oil for ease in handling. A Baldwin compressometer on 1200-pound scale was used to determine the load required to move the dowel pin. This was done in numerical sequence in a single blind test - samples only identified by number and not with the penetrating oil used.
The first and foremost conclusion I reached from the results: Any oil is better than trying to strong-arm things apart dry. These products actually do free up rusted parts. The price and performance of mixing your own penetrating oil is interesting, but keep in mind that most of the cost in the commercial products comes from the easy applicator can. If you have the time and opportunity for soaking overnight, the home brew method appears to be a winner.
By the way, on the subject of cost, the price quoted is what I paid locally to obtain the minimum quantity possible. Buying in bulk and shopping around can reduce the price of the commercial penetrating oils substantially.
Natural exposure would be representative of real world applications, but requires a very long time and a number of replicate samples to handle the wide sample-to-sample scatter encountered in natural exposure. Using artificially accelerated corrosion reduces the time required and provides nearly identical test samples. The testing done was not on bolts, since I don't have access to equipment for measuring the torque on threaded fasteners, but can measure the load on a sliding fit.
So you can decide if this was a fair test or not, this is what I did. A 5/8" diameter rod of cold-finished low carbon steel was lathe drilled, parted off in 0.50" lengths, and numbered sequentially. Each length was individually reamed to 0.250". All pieces along with commercial ground 1/4" x 1" dowel pins were ultrasonically cleaned together for twenty minutes in methanol to remove all machining fluid and oil. A dowel was inserted into each length using light finger pressure leaving 1/4" of dowel exposed at each end. Yearsof exposure were simulated by twelve hours of alternate immersion using ten minutes in a 3% solution of NaCI (table salt) followed by 50 minutes of drying in 105° Fair.
The corroded samples were randomly divided into five groups (Photo 1), plus one control group left as-corroded. One fluid ounce of penetrating oil was used to immerse each group of three samples for a period of twelve hours.
Samples were then drained on paper towels to remove the excess oil for ease in handling. A Baldwin compressometer on 1200-pound scale was used to determine the load required to move the dowel pin. This was done in numerical sequence in a single blind test - samples only identified by number and not with the penetrating oil used.
Code:
PENETRATING OIL AVERAGE LOAD PRICE PER FLUID OUNCE ATF / Acetone Mix 53 pounds $0.10 Kano Kroil 106 pounds $0.75 Liquid Wrench 127 pounds $0.21 PB Blaster 214 pounds $0.35 WD-40 238 pounds $0.25 None 516 pounds -
By the way, on the subject of cost, the price quoted is what I paid locally to obtain the minimum quantity possible. Buying in bulk and shopping around can reduce the price of the commercial penetrating oils substantially.
04-20-2014, 08:50 PM
#4
ATF+Acetone? that's interesting never thought about that
he shouldn't use "regular" WD-40 as example, it's not really a good stuff for breaking stuff loose, the company came out with it's own penetrating oil long time ago, I think it works much better than PB Blaster and that's what I've been using for quite some time.
he shouldn't use "regular" WD-40 as example, it's not really a good stuff for breaking stuff loose, the company came out with it's own penetrating oil long time ago, I think it works much better than PB Blaster and that's what I've been using for quite some time.
04-20-2014, 10:20 PM
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It looks like a test to me, not just hypothetical. You can argue that the test isn't realistic, but it IS a test. Where is your test data to prove his test conclusions are fabricated? Or do you only have hypothetical opinions and wishful thinking too?
04-21-2014, 06:07 AM
#8
How do you know that it wouldn't have come off any way? When you use it and it doesn't come off then what? This is the debacle behind it in a nutshell. I don't have a machine shop, but I do have 40+ years of dealing with the situation ... In most cases where it did come off I could clearly see thst there was nearly little to no penetration past the outside area. At most you are lubing up the exposed threads only.
Put anti-seize on it and you never have to worry about it either way.
Put anti-seize on it and you never have to worry about it either way.
04-21-2014, 06:40 AM
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I think you missed the point, and target, of the test.
At no point did he make any claims of "always use one of these or it will never come out", nor did he make any claims of of what amount of force you have to use on your particular bolt.
He simply measured the effectiveness of 5 difference penetrating oils at penetrating through rust. That's it. If you have a bolt that comes free without anything, then being able to use 90% less force doesn't really have any value, so no point in using something. If you have a bolt that needs 1,500lbs of force to come free due to rust, then one of the solutions will make it easier. It may not make it possible, but you will likely have a better shot with one than without one. That's all the test is.
Sure, there are going to be cases in which none of these help one bit, and there are going to be cases where none of them are needed. He wasn't trying make any statement like that. He is simple measuring the ability of each to penetrate through rust as compared to each of the other oils, and he achieved that comparison.
Yes, anti-seize helps dramatically, but keep in mind the original target. He writes for mechanics that sees cars brought in by customers that probably never used anti-sieze in the first place. Same as some owners here might run into if they pick up another car 2nd hand.
If you used something on this list and it didn't work, then not using anything probably wouldn't have been possible either, and maybe one of the better oils will work. That's all it is, a comparison. If you never need to use any penetrating oils at all, good for you. That doesn't make the test invalid though.
At no point did he make any claims of "always use one of these or it will never come out", nor did he make any claims of of what amount of force you have to use on your particular bolt.
He simply measured the effectiveness of 5 difference penetrating oils at penetrating through rust. That's it. If you have a bolt that comes free without anything, then being able to use 90% less force doesn't really have any value, so no point in using something. If you have a bolt that needs 1,500lbs of force to come free due to rust, then one of the solutions will make it easier. It may not make it possible, but you will likely have a better shot with one than without one. That's all the test is.
Sure, there are going to be cases in which none of these help one bit, and there are going to be cases where none of them are needed. He wasn't trying make any statement like that. He is simple measuring the ability of each to penetrate through rust as compared to each of the other oils, and he achieved that comparison.
Yes, anti-seize helps dramatically, but keep in mind the original target. He writes for mechanics that sees cars brought in by customers that probably never used anti-sieze in the first place. Same as some owners here might run into if they pick up another car 2nd hand.
If you used something on this list and it didn't work, then not using anything probably wouldn't have been possible either, and maybe one of the better oils will work. That's all it is, a comparison. If you never need to use any penetrating oils at all, good for you. That doesn't make the test invalid though.
04-21-2014, 07:53 AM
#10
How do you know that it wouldn't have come off any way? When you use it and it doesn't come off then what? This is the debacle behind it in a nutshell. I don't have a machine shop, but I do have 40+ years of dealing with the situation ... In most cases where it did come off I could clearly see thst there was nearly little to no penetration past the outside area. At most you are lubing up the exposed threads only.
Put anti-seize on it and you never have to worry about it either way.
Put anti-seize on it and you never have to worry about it either way.
After i start using those oil, the amount of snapping stuck/rusted bolts have been reduced.
And yes, anti seize does work, and i put them on whenever the bolt is out/clean/before reinstalling.
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