Issue Many Are Ignoring: Most Coolants Contain 2-EHA (which 'eats' silicone)
10-03-2012, 08:53 PM
#76
Well, we all know how dexcool turned out, not gonna bother explain it
Hmm, its hard to find the global stuff thats 100%, i did see some 50/50.global at my local bp for 11 bux a gallon. NOw im looking for alternatives, the beck & arnley stuff seems ok, but is it really the bad acid free? it just said it works, cant find the msdc
Hmm, its hard to find the global stuff thats 100%, i did see some 50/50.global at my local bp for 11 bux a gallon. NOw im looking for alternatives, the beck & arnley stuff seems ok, but is it really the bad acid free? it just said it works, cant find the msdc
This surprised me because few people even mention Beck/Arnley when it's probably as good as coolant gets.
If you have a AutoParts2020 independent auto franchise near you, they stock Peak Global full concentrate for anywhere from $13 to $16 per gallon (one store near me has it for $14.89 and another has it for $15.59 even though the national website lists it for $16.xx).
My point about Peak Global is that since they don't list exactly what organic acid(s) they use on their label or MSDS, it could be sebacic acid (sebacates), which was 50% of the organic acid "forumula" of the original Dexcool.
This is unfortunate, since I generally find Peak (Old World Industries) to be a pretty good company with dedicated employees.
I do not know if sebacic acid or 2-EHA is to blame for the bad rap that Dexcool got, or if it was really the design of specific General Motors' motors (especially the 3.1, 3.4 and 3.5 liter motors) that was the source of the Dexcool issues, but it's an open question.
Interestingly, Toyota's factory fill Super Long Life Coolant (the dark red stuff, not that dyes mean anything anymore) has sebacic acid as its main organic acid.
10-05-2012, 12:53 PM
#77
Okay - it appears that stock Mazda RX-8 radiator hoses are heavy duty rubber, and not silicone (many of the aftermarket ones are 5-layer silicone).
Now, I'm trying to find out if the internal radiator gaskets and seals are made of silicone or not...which is difficult, for whatever reason.
Does anyone know?
Now, I'm trying to find out if the internal radiator gaskets and seals are made of silicone or not...which is difficult, for whatever reason.
Does anyone know?
10-05-2012, 01:20 PM
#78
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
LOL, I responded to the thread you made.
Mazda Remans definitely use silicone between the housings and irons. Here is a pic of my old reman.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/4453405582/
I'm not sure what the factory coolant seals are made of and I don't think the other seals are silicone but who knows what the make up of the rubber is.
Mazda Remans definitely use silicone between the housings and irons. Here is a pic of my old reman.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/4453405582/
I'm not sure what the factory coolant seals are made of and I don't think the other seals are silicone but who knows what the make up of the rubber is.
10-06-2012, 09:52 PM
#79
Btw, correct me if wrong, our.coolant seal is a sandwich of teflon, rubber, and teflon. And most of the its the rubber part that fails first.
Parts that see coolant should not have any.silicones, only part that sees it are the legs of.the iron and the front cover
I use hylomar at the coolany seals, it resist almost everything so im sure my fc engine will be good, but not so sure what they use at mazda reman plant,wouldnt be surprised if they use a.bit of silicone to hold the seals in place, which is wrong
Parts that see coolant should not have any.silicones, only part that sees it are the legs of.the iron and the front cover
I use hylomar at the coolany seals, it resist almost everything so im sure my fc engine will be good, but not so sure what they use at mazda reman plant,wouldnt be surprised if they use a.bit of silicone to hold the seals in place, which is wrong
Last edited by nycgps; 10-06-2012 at 09:55 PM.
10-06-2012, 10:02 PM
#80
You just reminded me; the Beck Arnley 252-1001U Green Premium Coolant Concentrate is pretty much FL22 unless I'm very mistaken.
This surprised me because few people even mention Beck/Arnley when it's probably as good as coolant gets.
If you have a AutoParts2020 independent auto franchise near you, they stock Peak Global full concentrate for anywhere from $13 to $16 per gallon (one store near me has it for $14.89 and another has it for $15.59 even though the national website lists it for $16.xx).
My point about Peak Global is that since they don't list exactly what organic acid(s) they use on their label or MSDS, it could be sebacic acid (sebacates), which was 50% of the organic acid "forumula" of the original Dexcool.
This is unfortunate, since I generally find Peak (Old World Industries) to be a pretty good company with dedicated employees.
I do not know if sebacic acid or 2-EHA is to blame for the bad rap that Dexcool got, or if it was really the design of specific General Motors' motors (especially the 3.1, 3.4 and 3.5 liter motors) that was the source of the Dexcool issues, but it's an open question.
Interestingly, Toyota's factory fill Super Long Life Coolant (the dark red stuff, not that dyes mean anything anymore) has sebacic acid as its main organic acid.
This surprised me because few people even mention Beck/Arnley when it's probably as good as coolant gets.
If you have a AutoParts2020 independent auto franchise near you, they stock Peak Global full concentrate for anywhere from $13 to $16 per gallon (one store near me has it for $14.89 and another has it for $15.59 even though the national website lists it for $16.xx).
My point about Peak Global is that since they don't list exactly what organic acid(s) they use on their label or MSDS, it could be sebacic acid (sebacates), which was 50% of the organic acid "forumula" of the original Dexcool.
This is unfortunate, since I generally find Peak (Old World Industries) to be a pretty good company with dedicated employees.
I do not know if sebacic acid or 2-EHA is to blame for the bad rap that Dexcool got, or if it was really the design of specific General Motors' motors (especially the 3.1, 3.4 and 3.5 liter motors) that was the source of the Dexcool issues, but it's an open question.
Interestingly, Toyota's factory fill Super Long Life Coolant (the dark red stuff, not that dyes mean anything anymore) has sebacic acid as its main organic acid.
One more coolant u forgot.to mention is the zerex for asian vehicle stuff, its only sold in 50/50 and can be found at napa for around 14 bux. Its listed as using hoat, i probably gonna get like 5 tomorrow as i have to do a tune up for bro's fx35, will post some pics tomorrow
12-05-2012, 03:34 AM
#81
Mr. Örange
The short answer? There are two kinds of coolant: orange stuff and green stuff.
If your car came with green stuff, use green stuff.
If your car came with orange stuff, use orange stuff.
Never mix orange and green. If you want to switch intentionally, flush the system before putting in the new type of coolant.
If your car came with green stuff, use green stuff.
If your car came with orange stuff, use orange stuff.
Never mix orange and green. If you want to switch intentionally, flush the system before putting in the new type of coolant.
05-09-2013, 01:26 AM
#87
Thanks everyone.
I'm probably being way more OCD about this because I will be driving my now nearly 8 year old 8 for at least 3 or 4 more years, since 1) she's been so damn good to me --seriously; I keep dino oil topped off religiously, use a purolator pureone long or shorty at 3k OIC, check plugs and coils though they've not required frequent changes (I'm close to due again, though), make sure brake fluid and coolant levels are static and of the right color - especially brake fluid - and a few other minor things.
End result? I've driven the 8 for 87k miles now (it wasn't driven much for first 2 years since I had a Jeep) and it literally drives as tight as new and the original motor pulls hard and smooth to redline all day long, while idling at precisely 800rpm as if its mission critical.
Hell, I didn't even have to get new brakes until the 54k mark, and a battery was replaced on Mazda dime in year 3. It's been one of the most trouble free cars I've ever owned.
When I test drove a ton of new vehicles the last few years, none of them came off as that great, they suffer from plasticsitis and cheapening of their interiors, many former 6 pots - sadly even of the inline 6 variety, are being based out with direct injected 4s, and worse of all, the manual gearbox with a proper shift lever and heel-toe clutch is being snuffed out (helloooo, Porsche).
I have to make this car last, because to be brutally honest, much of the new crop of cars significantly suck. *IMHO
I'm probably being way more OCD about this because I will be driving my now nearly 8 year old 8 for at least 3 or 4 more years, since 1) she's been so damn good to me --seriously; I keep dino oil topped off religiously, use a purolator pureone long or shorty at 3k OIC, check plugs and coils though they've not required frequent changes (I'm close to due again, though), make sure brake fluid and coolant levels are static and of the right color - especially brake fluid - and a few other minor things.
End result? I've driven the 8 for 87k miles now (it wasn't driven much for first 2 years since I had a Jeep) and it literally drives as tight as new and the original motor pulls hard and smooth to redline all day long, while idling at precisely 800rpm as if its mission critical.
Hell, I didn't even have to get new brakes until the 54k mark, and a battery was replaced on Mazda dime in year 3. It's been one of the most trouble free cars I've ever owned.
When I test drove a ton of new vehicles the last few years, none of them came off as that great, they suffer from plasticsitis and cheapening of their interiors, many former 6 pots - sadly even of the inline 6 variety, are being based out with direct injected 4s, and worse of all, the manual gearbox with a proper shift lever and heel-toe clutch is being snuffed out (helloooo, Porsche).
I have to make this car last, because to be brutally honest, much of the new crop of cars significantly suck. *IMHO
05-09-2013, 08:47 PM
#88
I moved out of NYC and looking to buy another 8 or maybe a FC3S convertible. so right now I'm looking at possible coolant stuff. hard to get anything mentioned in this thread cuz the place I live in now has mostly Japanese coolant --- which can be good n bad.
good is because most of them are HOAT coolant
bad is it's Japanese coolant so its expensive, well the Yen drop surely helped.
I bet most people still dunno about this coolant thing.
good is because most of them are HOAT coolant
bad is it's Japanese coolant so its expensive, well the Yen drop surely helped.
I bet most people still dunno about this coolant thing.
05-10-2013, 06:48 AM
#89
I moved out of NYC and looking to buy another 8 or maybe a FC3S convertible. so right now I'm looking at possible coolant stuff. hard to get anything mentioned in this thread cuz the place I live in now has mostly Japanese coolant --- which can be good n bad.
good is because most of them are HOAT coolant
bad is it's Japanese coolant so its expensive, well the Yen drop surely helped.
I bet most people still dunno about this coolant thing.
good is because most of them are HOAT coolant
bad is it's Japanese coolant so its expensive, well the Yen drop surely helped.
I bet most people still dunno about this coolant thing.
Dude where did you move to?? No more New York?
05-10-2013, 10:41 AM
#90
Registered
Okay - it appears that stock Mazda RX-8 radiator hoses are heavy duty rubber, and not silicone (many of the aftermarket ones are 5-layer silicone).
Now, I'm trying to find out if the internal radiator gaskets and seals are made of silicone or not...which is difficult, for whatever reason.
Does anyone know?
Now, I'm trying to find out if the internal radiator gaskets and seals are made of silicone or not...which is difficult, for whatever reason.
Does anyone know?
Found this Mazda-TSB regarding "PRE-MIXED LONG-LIFE "FL22" ENGINE COOLANT" (also regarding RX-8).
http://www.miata.net/garage/tsb/01-033-07-1830b.pdf
and this........... https://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j...GHw_eQbyxl5NYA
and this (as previously stated elsewhere in this forum)............
Some (most?) Japanese automotive engineers strongly recommend against using "universal" aftermarket coolants that contain 2-EHA, which is a key ingredient in GMs infamous Dex-Cool coolant. 2-EHA destroys some plastics including some plastic gasket materials. It also has a checkered history in its role as a principal component of Dex-Cool. It is unclear whether Peak "universal" coolants other than Peak Global contain 2-EHA. As far as I know, all Prestone extended life coolants and most notably their "univeral" coolants contain 2-EHA.
http://forum.mpvclub.com/viewtopic.php?t=24198
Last edited by Rudolph; 05-10-2013 at 11:43 AM.
06-17-2013, 09:54 PM
#91
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Yeah, I know this an old thread, but I am a chemical engineer and the OP asked for one. Wish granted!
The reason that the organic acids are bad for plastics is that they are acids. In their original state, they dissociate (fall apart) to release free protons (H+) that can then react with the bonds of the plastics. Should the long hexanoic chain begin to decompose, or react with a halogen (Chlorine, Cl, most likely present), then the acid could be come stronger/more agressive, depending on where the Cl reacts along the chain. This is more likely to occur over time.
Here is a link that explains about organic acids for the curious. It's pretty good.
Explaining the acidity of organic acids
Here is a link to a chemical compatibility chart.
O-Ring Fluid Compatibility Guide
Now, from the organic acid page you can see that acetate has a pka of 3.75, while butanoic acid has a pka of 4.8. Hexanoic acid will follow this trend and have a pKa of about 4.8. pKa can be thought of as a measure of the strength of the acid: lower=stronger. Really, it's a measure of what fraction of the acid is protonated/deprotonated at any particular concentration, but that's a lesson for later. Back on subject. The compatibility chart doesn't list hexanoic acid, but it does list glacial acetic acid, which has the same carboxylic acid group, only more agressive. The chart shows that silicone is probably ok. However, the chart is also likely based on 'standard conditions', meaning room temperature and atomospheric pressure. The cooling system is anything but! It's more like 2 atm and 200 F. The increased temperature tends to increase reaction rates when acids are involved. Also, if some Cl should add in (see the table with the trichloroethanoic acid in the organic acid link), you can get a VERY agressive acid. You may also notice on the compatibility chart that there is only the perfluoro elastomer is recommended for use with acetic acid. So, it's very likely that these carboxylic acids, over time and in a cooling system, just won't be very kind to the cooling system.
Now, with all that said, I have not studied this matter in depth. Just read through the thread and know something about organic chemistry and material compatibility. This is 'off the cuff' as it were and should not be taken as 'gospel truth'.
The reason that the organic acids are bad for plastics is that they are acids. In their original state, they dissociate (fall apart) to release free protons (H+) that can then react with the bonds of the plastics. Should the long hexanoic chain begin to decompose, or react with a halogen (Chlorine, Cl, most likely present), then the acid could be come stronger/more agressive, depending on where the Cl reacts along the chain. This is more likely to occur over time.
Here is a link that explains about organic acids for the curious. It's pretty good.
Explaining the acidity of organic acids
Here is a link to a chemical compatibility chart.
O-Ring Fluid Compatibility Guide
Now, from the organic acid page you can see that acetate has a pka of 3.75, while butanoic acid has a pka of 4.8. Hexanoic acid will follow this trend and have a pKa of about 4.8. pKa can be thought of as a measure of the strength of the acid: lower=stronger. Really, it's a measure of what fraction of the acid is protonated/deprotonated at any particular concentration, but that's a lesson for later. Back on subject. The compatibility chart doesn't list hexanoic acid, but it does list glacial acetic acid, which has the same carboxylic acid group, only more agressive. The chart shows that silicone is probably ok. However, the chart is also likely based on 'standard conditions', meaning room temperature and atomospheric pressure. The cooling system is anything but! It's more like 2 atm and 200 F. The increased temperature tends to increase reaction rates when acids are involved. Also, if some Cl should add in (see the table with the trichloroethanoic acid in the organic acid link), you can get a VERY agressive acid. You may also notice on the compatibility chart that there is only the perfluoro elastomer is recommended for use with acetic acid. So, it's very likely that these carboxylic acids, over time and in a cooling system, just won't be very kind to the cooling system.
Now, with all that said, I have not studied this matter in depth. Just read through the thread and know something about organic chemistry and material compatibility. This is 'off the cuff' as it were and should not be taken as 'gospel truth'.
06-26-2013, 08:39 AM
#92
Good Info, But still kinda Confused, some guys say coolant 50/50 is good, And I been reading about purple ice and it looks like it will be good, and then I want to get the Mazda coolant, I want to get something soon if better since summer is here in florida and wanted to keep my car running cooler and last longer., And some guy swear on the Red line water wetter super coolant, He says it will drop you degrees on you radiator by 20% degree. Anyone has any more input on this. Thanks
06-26-2013, 08:45 AM
#93
You gonna eat that?
iTrader: (1)
Good Info, But still kinda Confused, some guys say coolant 50/50 is good, And I been reading about purple ice and it looks like it will be good, and then I want to get the Mazda coolant, I want to get something soon if better since summer is here in florida and wanted to keep my car running cooler and last longer., And some guy swear on the Red line water wetter super coolant, He says it will drop you degrees on you radiator by 20% degree. Anyone has any more input on this. Thanks
06-26-2013, 08:47 AM
#94
Temperature never got over 220F after that and hardly ever over 210F even on 100F days with humidity.
Before then I was hitting 230F+ on baking days especially when stuck in traffic not able to move.
Try $50.00 a gallon NPG
11-15-2013, 05:29 PM
#99
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Yeah I used the prep, flushed the block, etc. and I was draining the coolant anyway so it was a good time to take the plunge. It's more expensive but it makes me feel better. But you definitely have to keep some on hand.