Issue Many Are Ignoring: Most Coolants Contain 2-EHA (which 'eats' silicone)
09-27-2012, 09:41 PM
#1
Issue Many Are Ignoring: Most Coolants Contain 2-EHA (which 'eats' silicone)
This may or may not be news to you personally, but it will undoubtedly be news to some, and it warrants attention.
Most of the all makes/all models coolants/antifreezes sold at places like Advanced Auto, Autozone, Walmart, Pepboys, O'Reilly's, and other stores contain 2-ethylhexanoate (2-EHA).
Essentially, these coolants are Dexcool clones (without explicitly stating such, so as to avoid having to pay GM royalty fees).
Why is this important? Well, without getting into a debate with those who believe Dexcool & other 2-EHA containing coolants are or are not fine, let's look at what the Society of Automotive Engineers has to say about 2-EHA (in a recent article speaking to industry-wide changes in OEM coolants being used):
Chrysler switches to OAT antifreeze
Chrysler switches to OAT antifreeze for longer service interval
"2-ethylhexanoate (2-EHA) is a cost-effective but controversial additive that softens plastics, particularly silicone, leading to leaks from affected sealing materials, which means that silicone cannot be used in gaskets, O-rings, and hoses if the antifreeze contains 2-EHA."
Okay, if one has enough concern about the potential that the SAE is correct (as well as other groups and companies, such as Gates), it's probably prudent to understand whether the RX-8 uses any silicone in sealing gaskets, hoses or other components in its cooling system, correct?
On this point, I will defer to the experts for an absolute answer, but I do believe that at LEAST the 8's coolant hose is silicone, and possibly gaskets, as well.
If this IS the case, shouldn't this be a matter of serious concern, given that coolant leaking into the Renesis is likely to lead to catastrophic failure?
Mazda's FL22 and Motorcraft Specialty Green Engine Coolant (PN# VC-10-A premixed or VC-10-A2 normal concentration) are essentially the same exact coolant, neither of them contain any 2-EHA, this is what Mazda has been using for a while now, while Ford has conspicuously switched to this in its new vehicles as a factory fill coolant (in other words, Ford took a page out of Mazda's factory fill requirements).
Doesn't this speak loudly to the fact that there's an issue with coolant that contains 2-EHA?
Given that coolant is one of the most mission critical fluids in properly maintaining one's motor, and that it's also probably one of the most neglected fluids by vehicle owners, I would have expected to see a lot more discussion of this issue here on RXclub, but there's not much I was able to find.
Whether you agree or disagree with what I've had to say, and hopefully after you've done your own due diligence in the event you weren't already up to speed on this issue, I think this is an important matter that warrants more discussion.
Here's a gasket from a system using 2-EHA containing coolant and one from a system that DOES NOT, side by side (same motor - 3800 Series II Buick):
On the left is the DEX 30,000-40,000 mile LIM gaskets........On the right, the 125,000 mile non-DEX gaskets
These pics and more are in my Article 1 link below.
Roto
Most of the all makes/all models coolants/antifreezes sold at places like Advanced Auto, Autozone, Walmart, Pepboys, O'Reilly's, and other stores contain 2-ethylhexanoate (2-EHA).
Essentially, these coolants are Dexcool clones (without explicitly stating such, so as to avoid having to pay GM royalty fees).
Why is this important? Well, without getting into a debate with those who believe Dexcool & other 2-EHA containing coolants are or are not fine, let's look at what the Society of Automotive Engineers has to say about 2-EHA (in a recent article speaking to industry-wide changes in OEM coolants being used):
Chrysler switches to OAT antifreeze
Chrysler switches to OAT antifreeze for longer service interval
"2-ethylhexanoate (2-EHA) is a cost-effective but controversial additive that softens plastics, particularly silicone, leading to leaks from affected sealing materials, which means that silicone cannot be used in gaskets, O-rings, and hoses if the antifreeze contains 2-EHA."
On this point, I will defer to the experts for an absolute answer, but I do believe that at LEAST the 8's coolant hose is silicone, and possibly gaskets, as well.
If this IS the case, shouldn't this be a matter of serious concern, given that coolant leaking into the Renesis is likely to lead to catastrophic failure?
Mazda's FL22 and Motorcraft Specialty Green Engine Coolant (PN# VC-10-A premixed or VC-10-A2 normal concentration) are essentially the same exact coolant, neither of them contain any 2-EHA, this is what Mazda has been using for a while now, while Ford has conspicuously switched to this in its new vehicles as a factory fill coolant (in other words, Ford took a page out of Mazda's factory fill requirements).
Doesn't this speak loudly to the fact that there's an issue with coolant that contains 2-EHA?
Given that coolant is one of the most mission critical fluids in properly maintaining one's motor, and that it's also probably one of the most neglected fluids by vehicle owners, I would have expected to see a lot more discussion of this issue here on RXclub, but there's not much I was able to find.
Whether you agree or disagree with what I've had to say, and hopefully after you've done your own due diligence in the event you weren't already up to speed on this issue, I think this is an important matter that warrants more discussion.
Here's a gasket from a system using 2-EHA containing coolant and one from a system that DOES NOT, side by side (same motor - 3800 Series II Buick):
On the left is the DEX 30,000-40,000 mile LIM gaskets........On the right, the 125,000 mile non-DEX gaskets
These pics and more are in my Article 1 link below.
Roto
Last edited by RotoRocket; 10-01-2012 at 08:38 PM.
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Kamal El (10-20-2018)
09-27-2012, 09:51 PM
#2
Bonus Article on Coolant Technology that is Extremely Good
Edit - Here are the articles I meant to post, and they are fantastic.
The first one is less "professional," and not from an industry source, but has fantastic photos of gaskets from the same GM 3800 series V6 motors where some used Dexcool and some did not, and the differences are incredible.
The second article is more professional, but easy to read, and does an amazing job summarizing the hazards of using any coolant with 2-EHA in it (which is probably in 85% of the coolants sold at the typical auto parts store or Walmart).
Article 1:
http://www.dex-cool.net/
Article 2:
http://www.mastertechmag.com/pdf/200...antifreeze.pdf
The first one is less "professional," and not from an industry source, but has fantastic photos of gaskets from the same GM 3800 series V6 motors where some used Dexcool and some did not, and the differences are incredible.
The second article is more professional, but easy to read, and does an amazing job summarizing the hazards of using any coolant with 2-EHA in it (which is probably in 85% of the coolants sold at the typical auto parts store or Walmart).
Article 1:
http://www.dex-cool.net/
Article 2:
http://www.mastertechmag.com/pdf/200...antifreeze.pdf
Last edited by RotoRocket; 09-28-2012 at 02:24 AM.
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Kamal El (10-20-2018)
09-27-2012, 10:01 PM
#3
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Good stuff man, good to know. My last reman died prematurely of a faulty coolant seal. There was a **** ton of silicone used in that engine and possibly RTV silicone used to hold the coolant seals in place instead of Vaseline.
09-27-2012, 11:26 PM
#8
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
I usually use FL-22 but I was lazy the last time I redid the coolant lines to my turbo and topped off with Autozone brand coolant. It's probably a non issue with such a small amount but I guess I'll do a flush and put in fresh FL22 just to keep my OCD from kicking in.
09-28-2012, 01:43 AM
#9
Only a very few people, living in very warm places year round, could get away with using distilled water and something like water wetter.
Even then, they risk an issue if they get a cold weather event type anomaly.
Remember, water does the cooling and heat transfer, and the ethylene glycol or propylene glycol prevents the water in your radiator from freezing during cold weather.
This is an excerpt of a communication someone on BITOG had with Cummins Engine Company about 2-EHA and its impact on silicone seals/gaskets/hoses:
Coolant misinformation from a bitter grease-monkey - Bob Is The Oil Guy
"Frequently Asked Questions About Texaco's Extended-Life Coolant Written and distributed by Cummins Engine Company"
"Do all OAT coolants have this problem?"
"No, not all OAT coolants attack silicone seals. However, we do know that this problem is caused by ethyl-hexanoic acid, the main organic acid in Texaco Extended-Life coolant. Additional commercial, as well as experimental, OAT coolants are being screened to see if other organic acid inhibitors affect silicone seals."
"Why isn't Cummins redesigning the engine to work with this coolant?"
"The redesign would take considerable time and resources. Cummins' position is that the coolant should be reformulated such that it does not adversely affect engine components. The expectation of the industry is that coolants and lubricating oils will be formulated so that they are compatible with currently available engines."
Even then, they risk an issue if they get a cold weather event type anomaly.
Remember, water does the cooling and heat transfer, and the ethylene glycol or propylene glycol prevents the water in your radiator from freezing during cold weather.
This is an excerpt of a communication someone on BITOG had with Cummins Engine Company about 2-EHA and its impact on silicone seals/gaskets/hoses:
Coolant misinformation from a bitter grease-monkey - Bob Is The Oil Guy
"Frequently Asked Questions About Texaco's Extended-Life Coolant Written and distributed by Cummins Engine Company"
"Do all OAT coolants have this problem?"
"No, not all OAT coolants attack silicone seals. However, we do know that this problem is caused by ethyl-hexanoic acid, the main organic acid in Texaco Extended-Life coolant. Additional commercial, as well as experimental, OAT coolants are being screened to see if other organic acid inhibitors affect silicone seals."
"Why isn't Cummins redesigning the engine to work with this coolant?"
"The redesign would take considerable time and resources. Cummins' position is that the coolant should be reformulated such that it does not adversely affect engine components. The expectation of the industry is that coolants and lubricating oils will be formulated so that they are compatible with currently available engines."
09-28-2012, 11:05 AM
#10
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The short answer? There are two kinds of coolant: orange stuff and green stuff.
If your car came with green stuff, use green stuff.
If your car came with orange stuff, use orange stuff.
Never mix orange and green. If you want to switch intentionally, flush the system before putting in the new type of coolant.
PS - Toyota uses green stuff, but they dye it red instead. Thanks, Toyota.
If your car came with green stuff, use green stuff.
If your car came with orange stuff, use orange stuff.
Never mix orange and green. If you want to switch intentionally, flush the system before putting in the new type of coolant.
PS - Toyota uses green stuff, but they dye it red instead. Thanks, Toyota.
Last edited by Orthonormal; 09-28-2012 at 11:16 AM.
09-28-2012, 11:57 AM
#13
It's my understanding that this is the same as FL22:
Motorcraft Specialty Green Engine Coolant Part # VC-10-A2, which is available at pretty much any Ford Dealer (which is why I said above that Ford has now adopted Mazda FL22 coolant in pretty much every new vehicle it's unveiled in the last couple of years),
-And believe it or not, this is VERY close to FL22 if you look at the MSDS:
Beck/Arnley Engine Coolant/Antifreeze Part # 252-1001U (available at places like O'Reilly's, on Amazon and others). It's referred to as a concentrated green coolant that's actually listed as an OEM coolant for Mazda vehicles.
With that said, one can also go with Peak GLOBAL Lifetime Antifreeze & Coolant Liquid (if it just says PEAK and doesn't also have GLOBAL in the name, it's almost certainly a Dexcool clone containing 2-EHA like the others, so skip it), which is available at quite a few places, also, as it contains no 2-EHA, and no silicates or borates (Japanese manufacturers HATE silicates and borates in coolant). Believe it or not, both Menard's (it's like a Home Depot in the midwest) has this (and it's on sale RIGHT NOW for $7 per gallon for the 50/50 premix) and Walgreen's also carry this (yep, Walgreen's drugstore).
If you go with this, its good to a proper flush (to err on the side of caution, doing a proper, full flush is probably always a good idea anyways) until clear distilled water runs through the radiator, or even use one of the better flush machines at a shop, because if you do and save the documentation, Peak Global provides a lifetime warranty against coolant system failure/motor damage caused by the coolant itself.
I've heard very good things about the Peak Global Lifetime, but I still wouldn't trust it or any other coolant for a literal lifetime, and would stick the manual for coolant interval changes. Luckily, I can get the full concentrate for about $16 per gallon around here at independent places, while the Motorcraft Specialty Green (FL22 re-labeled) is $27 per gallon, and the FL22 is being sold by Mazda dealers for $30 a gallon (in truth, though, I'd still pay the higher price for either of these versus any crap with 2-EHA from the stores, since it's actually only going to be changed every 2 or 3 years, and I want peace of mind that my coolant gaskets and seals are not going to be warped/eaten/"attacked").
All the above come in full concentrate gallons or in 50/50 premix variations. So, unless a 50/50 premix variation is less than 50% the price of its full concentration version, you're almost always better off going with the full concentrate, and diluting it yourself with distilled water (and you can also control the ratio that way; i.e. 55/45, 70/30, 60/40, etc.).
Roto
Motorcraft Specialty Green Engine Coolant Part # VC-10-A2, which is available at pretty much any Ford Dealer (which is why I said above that Ford has now adopted Mazda FL22 coolant in pretty much every new vehicle it's unveiled in the last couple of years),
-And believe it or not, this is VERY close to FL22 if you look at the MSDS:
Beck/Arnley Engine Coolant/Antifreeze Part # 252-1001U (available at places like O'Reilly's, on Amazon and others). It's referred to as a concentrated green coolant that's actually listed as an OEM coolant for Mazda vehicles.
With that said, one can also go with Peak GLOBAL Lifetime Antifreeze & Coolant Liquid (if it just says PEAK and doesn't also have GLOBAL in the name, it's almost certainly a Dexcool clone containing 2-EHA like the others, so skip it), which is available at quite a few places, also, as it contains no 2-EHA, and no silicates or borates (Japanese manufacturers HATE silicates and borates in coolant). Believe it or not, both Menard's (it's like a Home Depot in the midwest) has this (and it's on sale RIGHT NOW for $7 per gallon for the 50/50 premix) and Walgreen's also carry this (yep, Walgreen's drugstore).
If you go with this, its good to a proper flush (to err on the side of caution, doing a proper, full flush is probably always a good idea anyways) until clear distilled water runs through the radiator, or even use one of the better flush machines at a shop, because if you do and save the documentation, Peak Global provides a lifetime warranty against coolant system failure/motor damage caused by the coolant itself.
I've heard very good things about the Peak Global Lifetime, but I still wouldn't trust it or any other coolant for a literal lifetime, and would stick the manual for coolant interval changes. Luckily, I can get the full concentrate for about $16 per gallon around here at independent places, while the Motorcraft Specialty Green (FL22 re-labeled) is $27 per gallon, and the FL22 is being sold by Mazda dealers for $30 a gallon (in truth, though, I'd still pay the higher price for either of these versus any crap with 2-EHA from the stores, since it's actually only going to be changed every 2 or 3 years, and I want peace of mind that my coolant gaskets and seals are not going to be warped/eaten/"attacked").
All the above come in full concentrate gallons or in 50/50 premix variations. So, unless a 50/50 premix variation is less than 50% the price of its full concentration version, you're almost always better off going with the full concentrate, and diluting it yourself with distilled water (and you can also control the ratio that way; i.e. 55/45, 70/30, 60/40, etc.).
Roto
Last edited by RotoRocket; 09-28-2012 at 12:17 PM.
09-28-2012, 11:57 AM
#14
actually with the rotary the big concern is the inner water seals, i am not sure what they are made from, but they are the important ones!
the early Rx8's used the regular green Mazda coolant, the switch to the FL22 was in 2006-2007 or so, if the car had the FL22 it should have a sticker somewhere near the fill cap.
in addition to the FL22, Mazda has a normal green coolant, which is different from the usual after market stuff.
the Mazda stuff seems pricey, but its undiluted, so you buy one gallon, instead of two for the "pre mixed" aftermarket stuff. so do the price shopping.
Last edited by j9fd3s; 09-28-2012 at 12:01 PM.
09-28-2012, 12:20 PM
#16
I've read on some forums people saying Prestone Extended Life 5 Year/150,000 Mile (the yellow stuff) doesn't have 2-EHA, but carboxylate instead, and they are wrong, and you are correct -- it has 2-EHA, and it's right on the label. Even if they were correct, caboxylate is a form of 2-EHA, essentially.
09-28-2012, 12:51 PM
#18
Poking around on the web, I found that pre-06 Mazdas came with a early P-OAT coolant, and FL-22 is the improved stuff:
To enhance service life, reduce waste material, and lower maintenance costs, a new long-life pre-mixed “FL22”
engine coolant is being introduced into mass-production for the models shown above.
It is recommended that FL22 coolant continue to be used for models originally filled with FL22 coolant from the
factory.
CAUTION: FL22 coolant is “pre-mixed” and must be added to the cooling system as is. DO NOT ADD
WATER TO FL22 COOLANT. Adding water will dilute the solution and lessen the effectiveness of
the coolant.
If coolant replacement becomes necessary for prior Mazda models (not originally filled with FL22 coolant), FL22
coolant can be used. If FL22 coolant is used for prior models, be sure to place the FL22 sticker on the reserve
tank or degas bottle to indicate FL22 coolant is being used.
NOTE:
• In the case of prior models, the coolant replacement interval is every five (5) years or 60,000 miles
(96,000 km).
• Six (6) FL22 stickers are included with each case of coolant.
Not very clear, but it's just another new type of coolant. Says here on the bottle, "ethylene glycol based.... 55/45 mixture recommended..... developed to provide corrosion and rust protection.....boiling point 270 degrees, freezing point -47 degrees. Ingrediants: Ethylene Glycol (107-21-1), Water (7732-18-5), Diethylene Glycol (111-46-6), Potassium Hydroxide (1310-58-3), Proprietary Inhibitors (NJTSRN 217).
To enhance service life, reduce waste material, and lower maintenance costs, a new long-life pre-mixed “FL22”
engine coolant is being introduced into mass-production for the models shown above.
It is recommended that FL22 coolant continue to be used for models originally filled with FL22 coolant from the
factory.
CAUTION: FL22 coolant is “pre-mixed” and must be added to the cooling system as is. DO NOT ADD
WATER TO FL22 COOLANT. Adding water will dilute the solution and lessen the effectiveness of
the coolant.
If coolant replacement becomes necessary for prior Mazda models (not originally filled with FL22 coolant), FL22
coolant can be used. If FL22 coolant is used for prior models, be sure to place the FL22 sticker on the reserve
tank or degas bottle to indicate FL22 coolant is being used.
NOTE:
• In the case of prior models, the coolant replacement interval is every five (5) years or 60,000 miles
(96,000 km).
• Six (6) FL22 stickers are included with each case of coolant.
Not very clear, but it's just another new type of coolant. Says here on the bottle, "ethylene glycol based.... 55/45 mixture recommended..... developed to provide corrosion and rust protection.....boiling point 270 degrees, freezing point -47 degrees. Ingrediants: Ethylene Glycol (107-21-1), Water (7732-18-5), Diethylene Glycol (111-46-6), Potassium Hydroxide (1310-58-3), Proprietary Inhibitors (NJTSRN 217).
09-28-2012, 12:55 PM
#20
Poking around on the web, I found that pre-06 Mazdas came with a early P-OAT coolant, and FL-22 is the improved stuff:
To enhance service life, reduce waste material, and lower maintenance costs, a new long-life pre-mixed “FL22”
engine coolant is being introduced into mass-production for the models shown above.
It is recommended that FL22 coolant continue to be used for models originally filled with FL22 coolant from the
factory.
CAUTION: FL22 coolant is “pre-mixed” and must be added to the cooling system as is. DO NOT ADD
WATER TO FL22 COOLANT. Adding water will dilute the solution and lessen the effectiveness of
the coolant.
If coolant replacement becomes necessary for prior Mazda models (not originally filled with FL22 coolant), FL22
coolant can be used. If FL22 coolant is used for prior models, be sure to place the FL22 sticker on the reserve
tank or degas bottle to indicate FL22 coolant is being used.
NOTE:
• In the case of prior models, the coolant replacement interval is every five (5) years or 60,000 miles
(96,000 km).
• Six (6) FL22 stickers are included with each case of coolant.
Not very clear, but it's just another new type of coolant. Says here on the bottle, "ethylene glycol based.... 55/45 mixture recommended..... developed to provide corrosion and rust protection.....boiling point 270 degrees, freezing point -47 degrees. Ingrediants: Ethylene Glycol (107-21-1), Water (7732-18-5), Diethylene Glycol (111-46-6), Potassium Hydroxide (1310-58-3), Proprietary Inhibitors (NJTSRN 217).
To enhance service life, reduce waste material, and lower maintenance costs, a new long-life pre-mixed “FL22”
engine coolant is being introduced into mass-production for the models shown above.
It is recommended that FL22 coolant continue to be used for models originally filled with FL22 coolant from the
factory.
CAUTION: FL22 coolant is “pre-mixed” and must be added to the cooling system as is. DO NOT ADD
WATER TO FL22 COOLANT. Adding water will dilute the solution and lessen the effectiveness of
the coolant.
If coolant replacement becomes necessary for prior Mazda models (not originally filled with FL22 coolant), FL22
coolant can be used. If FL22 coolant is used for prior models, be sure to place the FL22 sticker on the reserve
tank or degas bottle to indicate FL22 coolant is being used.
NOTE:
• In the case of prior models, the coolant replacement interval is every five (5) years or 60,000 miles
(96,000 km).
• Six (6) FL22 stickers are included with each case of coolant.
Not very clear, but it's just another new type of coolant. Says here on the bottle, "ethylene glycol based.... 55/45 mixture recommended..... developed to provide corrosion and rust protection.....boiling point 270 degrees, freezing point -47 degrees. Ingrediants: Ethylene Glycol (107-21-1), Water (7732-18-5), Diethylene Glycol (111-46-6), Potassium Hydroxide (1310-58-3), Proprietary Inhibitors (NJTSRN 217).
Many times, a look at the MSDS will reveal some or all of those "proprietary inhibitors."
I don't believe it's ever been alleged that FL22 contains 2-EHA, having said that, and all Japanese manufacturers warn against 2-EHA in coolant.
09-28-2012, 01:03 PM
#22
Math ftw, S2 coolant capacity = 10.2qts = 2.65Gal lol
So I revise my above statment ... it would cost about ~$75 for a FL22 fill
btw question regarding flushes ... doesn't the thermostat prevent you from getting to the coolant that is in the water jackets?
So I revise my above statment ... it would cost about ~$75 for a FL22 fill
btw question regarding flushes ... doesn't the thermostat prevent you from getting to the coolant that is in the water jackets?
09-28-2012, 01:44 PM
#24
Exact location shown in post #14 here: https://www.rx8club.com/tech-garage-...3/#post2550991
Search noob!
